ex-webby

Hi All

As promised, once time allows, we will look into the solution for the scotland forum.

I am returning from Japan on Tuesday and will be back in action on wednesday so hope to have an hour or so to talk this all through.

We want to hear from you what you want.

IMPORTANT :
The replies that will be taken into account will automatically be the ones that show balance. Anything that simply says "this is the way it should be and it's blindingly obvious - there is no alternative" will show us instantly that the person is not able to show reason or understanding for the potential complexities.

Anything posted that is not an attempt to assist this conversation will be ignored or deleted, and anything posted in response to any of these posts will also be deleted.

--

Please be very clear. We are not interested in the views of the loud mouths. We are interested in the genuine community members, who just want the best place for us all.

We (and I particularly) REALLY want this to work. The measures we had to put in place were a for a long drawn out combination of reasons and events.

Apologies (to the genuine members - who are mostly those who didn't start shouting and insulting) for any upset. I hope you will support us in return by offering your advice and ideas.

How do you want it all to work?

Some suggestions ..

new regional forums?
turn all the events forums into regional forums and simply add an events calendar seperately?
etc...

Some things to consider...
ScoobyNet is a community. the internet is non-geography specific... Do we really want to segregate? Someone might post something which would be of direct interest to the whole community?

How do you want it to be moderated?
Anything goes? Basically, anyone can post anything they like in any forum they chose?
Only subjects specific to scotland? Something For sale items are the only grey area I can think of here. Meets, "where's the best restaurant in Aberdeen?", "anyone going to the Perth Scottish Rally (do they still run that?)?", etc can all stay in scotland?
General discussion "good morning everyone", etc can stay in there?
"Member's Gallery", "Was It You?", etc.. surely it would be better to just keep things that specific to the correct forum.. then everyone can see it?

Thanks in advance..

and try to keep it light and we can have fun together shaping the next phase of scoobynet.

All the best

Simon

LG John

Simon I honestly have not read ANY of the argument threads and don't even know what everyone has fallen about out so perhaps I'm in a good position to comment here as a 'virtual' outsider.

I feel the Scotland forum should be more of a regional forum and moderation within it should be lighter. In other words if I have a blat with an STi and suspect it might be someone that post on SN I'd like my, 'was it you on the bypass' (not referring to any actual thread) thread to remain in Scotland where I'm most likely to get a reply post. I do understand there is a 'was it you' forum but previously the Scotland forum used to run well (albeit unofficially) as a sort of regional forum where the scottish members would congregate and discuss all sorts.

I don't think this would divide up Scoobynet as I don't think thats the way most people view/read/post on Scoobynet. Personally I always start in 'Other Marques' then go to 'Non-Scooby Related', occassionally 'Muppets' and then I move from that more national level to read the 'Scotland' forum for the stuff of local interest.

In short I feel the Scotland, Northern Ireland, etc areas should just be regarded as the 'local' place for threads that people feel need local attention, etc

Hope this helps.

Carl Davey

iTrader: (3)

Simon,

I had an idea that i thought may have worked towards providing some sort of a solution here. So you don't have to read through the waffle in that thred the basis was as follows:

If any Scottish member wanted to post a thread they wished to draw the attention of the locals to they put 'SCOTLAND' in the title - as per the site patrons request.

In addition to this we would have a sticky-thread in the Scottish forum with links to the site search facility whereby each link would filter the 'SCOTLAND' threads in Was It You / For Sale / Wanted etc. Eg, a 'Was It You' link to filter all the 'SCOTLAND' threads from that forum and so on. I thought this sticky-thread may initially provide a form of sub-forum for us and move things along the road which was seen to be the one to take by yourself and Shaun.

However, whilst i was waiting on Shaun getting back to me almost the entire Scottish contingent moved to the SIDC. As Davie suggests Simon, i fear you may be too late?

For the record yes, i'd like to see Regional Forums. Kenny hit the nail on the head with his Was It You comment and again, Eric raises another here.

wrxmania

Simon,

It is positive to see that we may be able to find a new way for Scottish users to feel able to use the Scoobynet Scotland section in a way which encourages community.

I think the work of the SIDC over the last two weeks exemplifies EXACTLY how the forum should be moderated and run - ie a regional section with Was it You's, general Scottish related discussion, links to for sales (but very few for sales) but local swap/free stuff etc placed within the Scottish discussion forum. Real respect has been shown to the members and what they require and this has paid off for SIDC with, I am sure, many new members, many who will join up, and record number of users online etc.

Unfortunately this lead to the almost grinding to a halt of the Scoobynet Scotland Events forum. This is a pity - it was enjoyed in the past and was a flexible Scottish related section which was used, AMONGST OTHER SECTIONS, by Scottish members.

I hope people will continue to use Scoobynet Scotland section, but this will only be if it is moderated in a different way and the remit is widened. The suggestions above are very sound ones, with a regional section, events being included, mentions and regional discussion. I feel I must add - this was what we had before all the bad feeling and pettiness - but it did not suit the remit of Scoobynet.

Hopefully if the remit is widened and some flexibility is introduced then users will return. As a paid up Scoobynet + member I want to use the forum I paid to support. However, it would be wrong to underestimate the bad taste left in some peoples mouth - I do not include myself in this but I do understand why some long term users have become very disgruntled. The SIDC have proved themselves beyond all reasonable doubt to be listening to the views, needs and opinions of Scottish users, with no imflammatory remarks made on either side, a real community spirit in all sections and a willingness to be flexible. This is not meant in any way to be detriment to Scoobynet, which is, after all, the largest and (should be) the best forum for all Scooby owners and would be owners.

All the best Simon and let's hope some users will return.

Brian

Numptie

Simon,

It's all been said here and in policy in the last few weeks. I see little point in going into detail on this thread. All I'd be doing is copying and pasting what I've said before.


Water under the bridge.


Aye, that's about it ... but not all the events forums, it's just Scotland under discussion here. I note there is no equivalent sticky in the other events forums.


IMHO, more reliance should be placed on the common sense of the poster and a far greater deal of flexibility w.r.t. the rules and guidelines.


Oh, come on now! are you serious?

There's been a resounding and pretty much unanimous message delivered in a multitude of threads in policy. Go have a look.


Sorry, not too constructive I know but I just don't see the point of raking over this again and again.

From being a several times a day visitor / contributor to Scotland, the current traffic means I rarely bother these days. I don't need to spell out the reasons for that.

Good luck.

Cheers,

N

pugoetru

I agree with numptie we are not trying to cause trouble but if i want to post something of relevance locally then it should go in a local forum surely that is the easy solution.

moving posts to the relevant section is ok in theory but if they keep getting moved you just upset people and they will go elsewhere.

Scoobynet has been changed recently and not for the better.

Iam sure local forums would make everyone happy even the welsh

my94

I like this place alot,but recently every post was moved(or deleted).

I just think that if someone is looking for a couple of used parts or advice on which garage to use,it should warrant a sensible reply.......ie. if u live in Fife there is no point telling the guy to go somewhere 400miles away.

I understand that people have spent alot of time and work in making this place so useful.So I hope that u don't think we are all grumpy old sods in Scotland.

Not to make any comparisons.......but the SIDC site has used the idea of having a Scottish room where we can post without worring that it fits the "Events" label.

Whatever u do,please do it quick as no one will come back if this is not sorted soon.
And I beleive that would be a sad thing,as this site rocks/rocked.

SCOSaltire

As you know, myself and others have posted alot in the Policy forum recently.
Not much point in stating my opinion again - read the threads started by numptie and myself and you will get the idea. In fact, I think you have the idea from ur post starting this thread.

In saying that, I shall make a couple of the important points clear.
Anything that the poster wishes to be targeted locally can be posted in the Scottish forum. This will not cause a split community, because anyone can visit any of the forums.
Now an important bit : if a moderator thinks that a post might be better suited in a different forum (for better audience, good pics shown for everyone, etc) then post a reply Suggesting that and offering to move it.

This next comment may be beyond the abilities of the software.
Is it possibile to move a post, yet have the original 'post' in the original forum have its Last Posted updated with each reply so that it may be shown as updated in the original forum. This would suit applications where a post may be suited to two forums.
In normal 'moved' cases, this may not be the case.
However, I think that we all agree that the Regional concept gives rise to this dual categorisation of posts.

The change to 'moved' would be nice - however the main points are that:
anything meant by the poster to be in the regional forum should stay
moderation in two stages - suggested move and then move/stay as indicated in the reply

good luck

DR Motorsport

This is the first time I've posted on this subject, but I've watched it developing over the last month or so. And it's come to the point of being childish - from both the mods and the members.
A couple of weeks ago I logged on to see that 80% of the posts had been moved, it was just stupid and too heavy handed from certain mods.

Now the Scottish area is empty, and the SIDC is now full. The members have stuck together, planned their move and been welcomed by the SIDC with their very own pages.

And if Scoobynet has any hope of getting them back, they'll have to do the same. Still have a Scottish Events page, but now also a Scottish General page.

But the bigger picture is money and making a profit. Scoobynet has gone from a simple forum back in 1998 when it was the original Scoobynet into a money making business. It's now got advertising and banner ads, membership plus+ income, a shop, etc. Which is fine by me - the bills still have to be paid.

But from the Scottish side that is all lost now, and I've seen posts now from people wanting membership refunds.
What's here to attract new Banner advertisers from Scottish companies if there's no Scottish members. And for the existing advertisers, it's now a case of "sorry guys we've chased away a large chunk of your market, because we pi$$ed them off"

As I said earlier this has all gotten out of hand, but I fear it's too late now to save it.

I understand you don't want to segregate member into only looking a one section, but I don't think that happens anyway. I probably go into about 10 of the sections and post from time to time on most of them. But most of my postings tend to be answers to someones question. And I still see that as Scoobynets greatest asset, if you don't know something, someone else will.

But from the postings above this one, you'll see that most want a new Scottish page to go with a Scottish Events page.



David

ex-webby

Carl,

Many thanks for sending me the email again. I will certainly be discussing (along with the whole issue) this with Simon over the next few days on his return to the UK.

Regards,
Shaun.

wrxmania

David,

That was a very good reply.

Brian

Dougster

Scoobynet didn't listen before so why should the members contibute now?

All aspects have been discussed and you chose your own way (rules are rules).

Now you see the Scottish members going to the SIDC and you come up with this!!

Too little too late Snet.

But I'm sure you'll lull them into a false sense of security as usual.

Brainwashing I think it is known as.

Anyone read Huxley?

ex-webby

Dougster,

Why is it you continue to make a bad point that was made quite loudly the first time you shouted from the tree tops? If Scoobynet has become such a farcical forum, which only has dictators and brain washers as the "management", why on earth do you waste your self righteous opinion on such a wasted audience (Simon and myself).

Your personal "mission" to rubbish anything Simon or myself discuss on this matter is getting rather, rather, rather boring......change the record!

I feel some what embarressed that when others have continued to voice meaningful discussion (on this thread also), you add nothing but pointless dribble. For that I apologise to others that have contributed.

Not only are you comments offensive to Simon and myself (which you can throw all day every day), but you are also insinuating that the "community" are also gullable.

Thanks for your contribution to the "cause" Dougster.... you have my utmost respect and gratitude.

Shaun.

ex-webby

Hi Guys

Just at Tokyo airport and popping in to let you know I'm going to be back home in about 18 hours so will take a look at all this so far. Thank you to everyone who had contributed so far.

Like I said it is important that we don't just drag up the old conversations. This is simple.

If you want this forum to change.. let's talk about it. If you want it to stay the same.. let's talk about it. If you want to clear off somewhere else.. we will have absolutely no hard feelings about that, and will wish you all the best.

--

Dougster

I will respond this one time in order to help people to see what a distructive force you have been in all of this.

As moderators we were attempting to discuss a solution.
You were not willing to, and simply stated your unbalanced view as the only possible solution.
You ignored the requests of myself and the rest of the moderator team to support us in the mean time with the moderation practices currently agreed, and just did things YOUR OWN way.
The very fact that you "ran" the Scotland forum by your own rules and against the rules of scoobynet is the very thing that turned it into a forum that people thought of the way they did. This was against the rules.

You have caused almost all of this. Do not contribute to this thread again unless it is a contribution to a solution.

Regards

webmaster

scunnered

iTrader: (1)

Surely you're mistaken, the Scottish section was being "run" that way long before Dougster became a moderator. It's a bit hypocritical of you to pin the blame solely on him. He was just going with the flow.

SCOSaltire

I agree with scunnered - scotland forum was 'run' the fun way i liked about 3 years ago - long long before dougster was a moderator.
In fact, back there there was very little moderation.
Its not even moderation now... its 'categorisation of posts'.
There plenty thread in all forums that have gone the way of muppets or slaggin matches. I see that as the issue that needs moderation, not the categorisation of threads.

i dont know what dougster is on about with the brainwashing thing.
however, the point about too late, and that there have been discussions previously is very true.
You will see that myself and numptie said effectively the same and have refered you to posts already made.
The traffic through the Scotland forum I imagine will be alot lower now due to people going to the sidc site - that is what makes me think that its too late.
There is a post on the sidc site that refers back to this one.

wrxmania

Yeah I placed the link on SIDC to allow many of the former SNet users to contribute to the posts and hopefully help suggest some positive ways forward.

VAL113R

I don't post much in the Scotland section but I do agree with the above post.

But what I do think is a waste of time are posts like

Subject: FAO xxxx

Body: You have mail

Or similar pointless posts with stupid replies. If you want to talk nonsense with someone add them to MSN, don't air it publicly for other people to suffer.

Over the past weeks there have been numerous posts moved by moderators which I feel should have been left. Posts such as "items for sale in Scotland" or "someone asking for local help with their car problems"

I can only assume that this is down to what has happened over the past while and the childish replies by some of the other members in this section, who start a post just to cause some trouble with the mods.

To be honest I don't really care what happens in this section. The only bits I normally read are the "for sale" forums to grab a bargain. But when I do look in here I don't really want to see the same stupid posts but the same members.

At the end of the day on other forums I am a member off, some of you would have been banned by now.

VAL113R

I know you got sacked get over it. If you don't like the forum any more don't come back to it.

Over the past weeks I have seen pointless posts by yourself ones such as "its Friday where are all the mods.." etc

It's people like you who are ruining it for the rest of us.

Numptie

Simon,

How about a poll to gauge peoples views?

Just a thought at the moment. I haven't had time to consider what the voting options might be.

I'll have a ponder and maybe post up a suggestion later.

Cheers,

N

richieh

been watching this for a little while now
i think the scotland issues are moving into wales as well
15 moved posts on page 1 none on page 5
[just noticed hardly any moved in other (ENGLISH) regions tho']
it was a quieter version of scotland a few months back quite social really
personally i dont see the problem with things as they were
1 any information which was useful for the whole community would find its way into the proper forum anyway
2 people that need specifics use the search to find things (esp with nsr and general etc starting a new page every few hours) seach is enabled north of the border isnt it?
it just seems that suddenly enforcing the mod guidelines to the letter is anti community in itself judging by the number of people it seems to alienate and the fact that it is inconsistantly applied

why can things not be allowed to return to the way they were with just some light moderation for threads which are obviously badly placed

out of curiosity did anyone(outside of the moderator team) actually complain about the way scotland(and wales) was run?


i just hope that all partys can climb down from their respective non-diminutive equines in order to compromise on summat before the ripples in the pond spread too far

perhaps some group evo bashing will make it better?


apologies if the post makes little sense or is digging up the old rubbish
richie

Colinj

Stop being foolish and moving posts, like this one for example - http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthread.php?t=359396

Subarstar

I might as well give my 2p worth as well:

I am very disappointed to see what has happened in the Scottish section here, as I found many of the threads both helpful and interesting.
Every time I log on these days there are less and less threads here, which saddens me.
Whenever I had a question or a problem, I could be fairly sure someone on here would have had a similar problem and would be able to help me out. (And I was equally happy to think that I might be helping others)
I know the forums need rules, and I respect that. However, the rules must be applied from the start and consistently, otherwise a 'revolt' is inevitable, when the rules are enforced again.

If the moderators are convinced that the rules have always been enforced, I'm afraid I must disagree. (I think the evidence speaks for itself).
If an additional Scottish forum was set up to run in parallel with the Events forum I think this would help, but I fear that this will be seen by many as too little, too late.

I suspect that through time, once things have cooled down, many of the disgruntled members will come back, but I doubt if things will ever get back to the way they were.

Good luck mods.

norry.

robinH20MRV

hi mods,

what i want to know (though when i asked b4 and it was moved to muppets) is what was wrong with the fourum the way it was? we all got on well, we all knew each other, and it was a GREAT local forum, scotland does not have the population of england, so its mor of a local thing, DOUGSTER, a problem?????????? i think not! he knows and speaks for most scooby members in scotland, i think you have done a lot of damage to scoobynet scotland, as most have moved to sidc, and been meet with open arms.

i am sad to see it go like this, though i dare say i am branded a "loud mouth idiot", though i prefer to think i say what i think, and dont hide my feelings.

regards robin.

Dougster

'We want to hear from you what you want.'

Again?

My valued contribution = try SEARCH.

ex-webby

Oh dear.

Guys

Unfortunately, those who just want to argue are drowning out those who want to actually discuss this.

Please re-read my first post where it asks everyone to make suggestions, not to go over old ground and / or throw insults at us / be cocky, etc.

Please don't throw this in our faces, we're trying to help.

regards

Simon

wrxmania

"Anything posted that is not an attempt to assist this conversation will be ignored or deleted, and anything posted in response to any of these posts will also be deleted."

Jools

Like many I have been keeping up with the problems of late and have not bothered to post on this issue as everything I would want to say has been said; until now that is.
In is my opinion that this particular post asking for feedback on the issues regarding the Scottish forum is very very flippant indeed, almost to the point of being ignorant.

If the Scottish form (and indeed maybe others too) are failing then the moderators and webmasters are failing in their jobs. You have to understand that when you manage something, be it a paper shop, a BBS, or a multi million-dollar operation and for whatever reason the product is failing, then it is the responsibility of the Senior Management. They are the ones who need to be held accountable. If people don’t come into you corner shop to buy their morning paper and a few rolls, if people don’t want to use SN anymore, and if a big company fails, whose fault really is it. I ask you openly; who? Is it mine as one of the product end users, or is it you as the product manager.

To come on here and slate Dougster like you have, (Post #13 refers) blaming him for the obvious demises of SN is not clever, not clever at all; regardless if he be right or wrong. Again I see this as a very basic managerial failure on your behalf; not a good tactic at all. I don’t really know Dougster from Adam to be honest, but I have seen him at track days and Scooby meets and exchanged pleasantries with him. He is a true Scooby enthusiast, like myself, who does far far more for the Scooby community than most will ever do, or bother to do. I don’t agree, and furthermore, don’t like to see the bad press toward him from SN management. He strikes me a calm decent fellow who is mature, and very sensible, not some brave heart style thug running around raising hell just for kicks and fun. Remember what I said; he is a true Scooby enthusiast and has done a good job representing the majority of the people on this forum, myself included.

In closing I would urge that you take onboard the points raised by so many people, so many time already, in particular Numptie’s “pup” post, and also what David is saying above (Post #9 refers) about sponsors and advertisers. IHHO I think you need to consider hard the way you moderate and manage SN, and I don’t think you need any more advice to this end; its all being said before. I would be calling for close review of the behaviour towards the Scottish form of late from some of the moderators, who seem to have got rather carried away, hiding behind policies and procedures, rather than applying good sense. I say good sense, rather than common sense, as it would appear that good sense is not common in your team anymore. And with that the story goes full circle, who is responsible for the P&P’s?

You also need to see through all the crap, listen to people who have something to offer you, not the folks that just bounce back and fore being friends with everyone and at the same time fuelling the obvious fire that continues to burn long into the night. Just look at this forum right now, it is the only fire that appears to be smouldering and looks like it may well extinguish itself soon. Also be aware that right now I feel we are in danger of creating and allowing divides to develop within the Scooby community, right throughout the country; North and South, East & West, and also possibly between different groups within the aforementioned community, and if that happens who do you think will be responsible?
So I would like to leave you with these words that were shared with me once when I was a lot younger. Sadly my Grandfather is no longer with us, but I hope his wisdom is;

“Don’t always look outside yourself for the answers to your problems”

Success.
Jools

Jools

Note; Please take my post as intended. I don’t wish to argue, throw insults or even discuss this anymore to be honest. I just wanted to share my thoughts with you and offer some solution, which I think I have made clear enough. Given more time to this right now than I really have to be honest, but I hope it is worth it for the sake of SN, and more importantly for the entire Scooby community. To clarify my thought process here; SN is not the Scooby community, it is one part of the Scooby Community.

Got to go for now.

SCOSaltire

Jools
Thanks for posting that. I believe that an 'Amen' is required.

Webmaster
I believe you have enuff information to go on now...?