Infected by sti

iTrader: (6)

Hey all


As we know the 2.5 discussions run on forever in a day with people's opinions and what's gone on.

Well a friend of mine has now been placed in the same situation with his RB320, it's leaking water out the overflow bottle on full boost and has that distinctive smell of antifreeze Being burnt.

SO now he's at the point of having the engine pulled stripped and inspected but he's having it fully forged whilst its apart, but is questioning having it pinned whilst he's there.

What is the advantage and disadvantage of this, I've seen conflicting views here so I'm on the fence with it.

Is there anybody running a pinned block with any feedback they can give.

He wants a solid engine and Would like to over engineer it to a degree without it becoming ridiculously priced, he is not changing out the stock turbo so that will be staying and if he ever does decide to change it he won't be wanting more than 450, I know this as mine frightens the shìt out of him , he wants the low down spool an fierce torque the 2.5 has to offer which is why he is keeping the standard blower as he's happy with what it can deliver.

Could people please give some opinions on engine builds, I know he is going for the head stud conversion so would 14mm be over kill for his needs? He's planning on cosworth gasket set and cosworth pistons, he's undecided on what rods to run. ( other suggestions and opinions greatly welcomed )

Price isn't a major factor (purely bottom end rebuild nothing else) but obviously he would like to get the best kit for the money he's spending, but not to the extremes of I beam rods, billet crank etc as he's never going to use that kind of power, so he wants a reliable strong built motor with quality parts lets say 500hp build max, but would like to over engineer it a tad more, we will be retaining the stock crank and casings.

People's thoughts please and would pinning the block be a sound move?

Cheers

Craig

Tidgy

if he only wants 450 then don't bother pinning, will be fine as is at that power so not worth the cost.

thestumper

iTrader: (1)

But if he is thinking 14mm head studs then you may aswell pin as you are doing work to the block anyway. 11mm head studs will be fine at 450bhp as should the OE rods. If he is thinking 500 I would change the rods, not to sure what the 11mm head studs are good for though.

Tidgy

500 i wouldn;t go with the 2.5 anyway. 2.35 closed deck all the way.

Infected by sti

iTrader: (6)

I have told him this but rods and pistons are a minimum to him whilst its apart, like I say he wants a bit of over engineering to a degree so if he knows the standard rod will do 400/500 then in his head upgraded ones are a no brainer if that makes sense, and in the grand scheme of things a set of rods is a drop in the ocean when it comes to building one of these

Also head studs are not yet confirmed as 14mm this is my argument with him, why do so much if your never going to use it to its proper spec which would be alot more work Above and beyond what we are talking about here, I have said 11's should be fine but hence the thread he wants people's views who have been here and done it, plus the knowledge the decent folk on here bring to the table

Honestly I can never see the car above 400 I'd say 450 at absolute most and that is seriously! He's not in to chasing figures and he's quite happy with how it's been mapped now but would like a bit more which the standard turbo should deliver once the engine can cope with the added load upon it as it was mapped on the conservative side purely for the reasons mentioned above, albeit for the good it did

thenewgalaxy

Nice topic! Would love to see what some of the tuners have got to say.

I wouldn't have thought the block would need pinning to be honest, especially at that power. I guess if he was chasing considerably in excess of 500bhp he'd need to consider pinning it but a valid point has already been made with regard to a 2.35.

There are conflicting opinions if my memory serves me well on how worthwhile pinning (and even sleeving) is but really it depends on who is doing the work. Ultimately if you trust the builder go with what works for them!

banny sti

iTrader: (68)

Some thoughts here

http://bbs.22b.com/forums/showthread...ng-a-2-5-block

trevsjwood

iTrader: (2)

for me it's down to what the car is used for, if just for road then forging with a cosworth 1.1mm head gasket, 11mm headstuds would be a very secure unit. If going on track then I would get the block pinned, road use doesn't come anywhere near the stresses of track.
My spec is a recoditioned sleeved EJ257 pinned block, Mahle pistons, Manley forged rods, Cosworth 1.1mm HG, 11mm cosworth headstuds, Cosworth sump baffle plate.
This was a complete new build following HG failure with catastrophic results.
Trev

legacy_gtb

iTrader: (3)

Headstuds .... theres different strengths!

The cossie UHT 260kpsi studs are a different kettle of fish to the likes of ARP etc ..... but cossie do also make ARP equivilent 180kpsi studs, if your sticking with 11's then defo pay the little bit more for the 260's.

As Trev has said, road use and track use have different demands and therefore different costs.

Regarding pinning, i was under the impression that pinning was made obsolete by the close deck inserts?

Regarding spec, im on an ej257 block, rods, and crank, with CP forged pistons, 11mm UHT studs and cossie head gaskets and its making 440/440 at 1.5bar.

Needs to come out soon to have the heads rebuilt, but in general the short blocks mighty. Was having a chat with a well respected tuner t'other day about this and there was a slight concensus of opinion that most failures with 2.5's seem to come about with high water temps ...... yes you have to change oil more often with a colder block as its not evaporating the contaminents out, but maybe a colder stat would help alot on standard 2.5's?????

thenewgalaxy

Yeah but in this weather they never warm up fully and can run too cold unless you're nailing the **** out of it.

trevsjwood

iTrader: (2)

In my case the HG was damaged by fretting caused by the cylinders moving underneath the gaskets.
Trev

legacy_gtb

iTrader: (3)

Know what your saying but in my case it hasnt made much difference.

With a standard stat in it now its still sitting at mid 90's when sitting in traffic. The air temp outside hasnt seemed to do anything to the temps at all when idling stationary, and theres its still low 90's when moving.

scoobyboy1

iTrader: (16)

Interesting thread, I have a hawk STi running 380bhp 412lb/ft on the standard bottom end, so i expect to be on borrowed time!!

Im in the same boat, I use my car everyday and I dont want to spend loads of money on a high spec engine, which is never going to be used to its full potential, So I was thinking of building a engine to say something like 450bhp, if were talking bhp figures.

The turbo I have in mind is a billet SC46, and this will probably be as much power as my car will ever make, any one recommend what parts you would have for a 450bhp build!!

I was thinking(feel free to change??) and the best prices I have found below, also add anything that I might need!!!!

Mahle pistons £250
Cosworth 11mm headstuds £238
Cosworth headgasket £75
Manley forged con rods £375

Id take the engine out myself to try and cut costs down, and give it to a well know engine builder!!

legacy_gtb

iTrader: (3)

Those studs will be the 180kpsi ones, the 260's are worth the extra IMO! definately the best bet without going to 14mm studs.... think RCM have released some similar too.

http://lateralperformance.co.uk/prod...subaru_impreza

As said before, the only REALLY weak link in the 2.5's SCDB is the pistons, then when you push on with boost you'll crack liners or have liner shifting related HG issues.

But if temps are good and it never sees det, you should be fine with just forged pistons on standard rods and crank. Thats where im at and boost is capped at 1.5bar to save the liners, still easily making 440/440 on an sc46.

Make sure your well known engine builder is well known in a good way if you know what i mean. Ive been burnt by cowboys in the past!

major problem your going to encounter is that once you list all of the things you need to do as a minimum, that well known engine tuner is going to cost upwards of £3k to build it. You'll then start the "well for only an extra £--- i could do this", then "well for only an extra £--- i could do this" ..... before you realise it your simple rebuild has doubled in cost..... draw a line and stick to it where possible.

Infected by sti

iTrader: (6)

Thanks for all your input guys its very much appreciated!

Like I say I've heard mixed reviews about pinning so thought I'd stick it out there for some feedback, some I've come across have been fine and have had no issues according to form, but then I've spoken with others and they really don't rate the pinning because of the temperature difference between the metals using to pin them, I was told over time with heating up and down they have been known to "come away" for better a word due to the difference in properties and the heat cycles.

IMO I've said go for 2.5 retaining his crank, new bearings throughout (goes with out saying ) set of cossie studs, cosworth pistons ( from reading reviews as other bits and pieces but others are still on the table) and if he wanted to go the rod route then I wasn't sure if factors like lengths come in to play with using cossie pistons combo, he / we will be speaking to a couple of the tuners shortly as we have our short list as to who will be building it and I think we are down to 2 (again could change).

Banny cheers for the link ill have a browse now!

So general consensus so far is that pinning is a no go for the power levels he is at or wants maybe in the future, if he does change his blower I would probably think it would be along the lines of a sc42 to keep the lower spool or may twist his arm in to a twinscroll setup as I have a spare setup here for one, should make things interesting but realistically can't see it being done or at least not for a long while as they enjoy the car as it is now, so forging it up so it can take the extra grunt from the standard turbo should give him a bit more of a smile

Keep the comments coming guys if you have any input as still like to hear different stories and versions of events

Infected by sti

iTrader: (6)

Also the car is a road going daily driver, it may see a track day in its time but again I wouldn't hold my breath is the honest answer, but the car is "driven" and when out on a spirited drive its used how it should be, he's not shy when it comes to the loud pedal and likes to push on when having a decent outing, just so people are aware he don't drive it like a girl just incase it reflects build types etc

jazzyjembreaze

iTrader: (11)

It's a double edged sword
RB running stock 320 oposed to circa 430-50
He's gonna have to change the turbo out & a few other things to achieve that figure anyway
Semi closed with pinned liners will see reliability at that figure
Try 13mm studs , although machining will still be required
--- jumping 100bhp
He will get the bug & want more ( guarentee )
Do it right first time or the cost will spiral
It's a sit down & do the math situation because , believe me

The List Is Endless !!!!!

IggyRB320

iTrader: (9)

Hi Craig,

I had my RB320 forged following HG failure.
When stripped, #4 piston was showing signs of ringland failure & the HG was almost non existent!
For the sake of the small cost, I had the block pinned.
I changed out all the bearings for race ones & used Cosworth stopper gaskets, ARP studs, mahle pistons.
I retained the OE rods, as I was informed that they are the same ones used in the Group N cars & within their limits up to 450hp.
Not that 'm an expert, but I was told that the liners are the issue above 500hp.

Here's a pic of my block & pinned liners;



My RB is now in France & getting very well used :north:

Iggy

Infected by sti

iTrader: (6)

I remember your car iggy, I don't live far from lee with the white hawk, lovely car that was, who done your work an have you got a rough cost for the work, if you prefer to send a pm then no worries

At least he has a rough price for what it may come in at with the parts you have used compared to using cosworth for example, sleeving the block may even become an option if pinning v sleeving costs are not so different ( if its decided to go ahead with one of the two ).

Is it still likely to cause further issues at say 450 if they weren't pinned or sleeved? From what I can gather much after that and the liners start to become the problem and start to move about or is it purely down to boost levels getting higher with bigger turbos and management etc that cause the issues, so if it was pegged at say 1.5 bar would it still be causing issues if for example you got 500hp but only 1.5 bar of boost, would the power difference still come in to play with the issues of the liners or would it be down to excessive boost levels?

What about liners? Are there many running them? Any issues with sinkage etc?

2pot

iTrader: (3)

IMO
Reliable daily driver:
Forged pistons over 375bhp. Forged rods and pistons over 400bhp, keep under 450bhp
Keep under 1.4bar if un-pinned
Keep under 1.7 bar if pinned
HTH

jazzyjembreaze

iTrader: (11)

The Answer Or The Problem solver ( so to speak )
Darton Dry Sleeves

Infected by sti

iTrader: (6)

I Think it's fair to say that he won't be pushing any more than 450, the car is his mrs daily drive and even she likes to push on a bit but nothing to the extremes myself likes

We were hoping for circa 390/400 hp out of the standard blower which by all accounts should be achievable give or take, it really isn't a numbers game here for the pair of them as they truly just like how the car drives, numbers don't mean anything to her, she treats the car like a child lol which isn't a bad thing but too much grunt would put her off so don't think that will ever happen, plus reliability is a BIG BIG part in this rebuild, it's not for chasing numbers and gaining power, but more of a security ( if that's possible ) or prevention of a better word to try and stop it happening again, as soon as she knew more power equals more problems with the car it will be hit on the head there and then

If it was me on the other hand I totally agree I'd want everything, I'm a power junkie, not so much outright speed but that feeling you get in your chest when you hit the peddle, gives me shivers my parents fault they always had big powerful cars and they wonder where my money goes at least they got something decent!

AS Performance

iTrader: (4)

in our experience liners are not the issue once supported properly and in this respect the CDB is a no brainer BUT potentially over kill at sub 450 as would 14mm conversion...........
we have spent over 2yrs refining these and happy to report "we have nothing to report" in any of the conversions carried out, many running 600 and above and most min 500

the RCM Ultra studs are our preference if staying 11mm

jazzyjembreaze

iTrader: (11)

Agree , it's overkill on the op's requirements
I run darton in my CD EJ257 but that's another story ..

If it's the mrs car , think the op should tell his m8 to just do a simple piston , gasket , stud change ...
Contact alyn above , sure he would be happy to help

BlueBugEye

iTrader: (12)

My 2.5 is showing some symptoms of HG failure but waiting on a leak down test and sniff test to fully check, as it does not push any coolant out and always returns to std levels after a drive.
I'm running as near as 450/450 as makes no difference at 1.5 bar, when I get around to taking the engine out I plan to go Closed Deck insert and Cosworth HG & 260 rated studs probably RCM based on Alyns reccomendation.

Infected by sti

iTrader: (6)

Thank you for your input Alyn


Out of interest what is the cost to convert the block, at least we can get all the options together and get a good idea of what's what.

I think the 14mm studs are out of the window tbh he's stared to make a few phone calls and enquiries today so is starting to form a better picture in his head.

We are getting a few quotes done

1.just drop the car off and not worry about it

2.gathering prices of parts they would like to use in the build to weigh up the costs if they were to supply what they wanted fitting so it would be purely labour time for who ever does the work ( If that's an option).

This way they can see how far they want to go and what different specs are out there for the money involved and how much more it is to pay for things that are not really going to be needed, like I say the car will always be sub 450hp I'd bet a fair wager on that

Infected by sti

iTrader: (6)

I have also said this to him great minds an all that, but some people have said pin the block now so it must be needed if you catch my drift

They both want to know it won't happen again due to something shifting about, what the outcome will be I could not tell you is an honest answer, same as I've said to them, there is never a guarantee it will NEVER happen again but if there is a way of further prevention then they look at all options, he's quite pedantic with shìt like that, and if the cost isn't a massive increase then to him it's worth it, apples and oranges hey :

AS Performance

iTrader: (4)

dont normally bandy costs around as people dont always compare "like for like" but here goes

we have recently managed to review the pricing for the inserts due to quantity done and making the process more effecient, etc. so they are now £450inc. fully machined and converted to CDB - please note our conversions are extensively machined to ensure the integrity of the insert

we also do our own 14mm studs kits which are very cost effective and include correct dowels at £345inc./full set 4cyl blocks (EG33 versions to special order)

Infected by sti

iTrader: (6)

Wow is that it! I had grand visions in my head of at least double may triple that well that's good to know learn something new everyday!

Also Alyn if say 14mm studs were used ( this is a general question ) do the heads require any machining to take the extra size?

Can see them being in touch on that one thank you

Do you do engine rebuilds as well then Alyn? I've always thought you were the man to go to with parts etc, so do you offer that service as well?

Shaun

Sorry but that subjective to say the least.