Gethin

IMHO

SVA's are much tougher than the MOT.

What about the poisnous heavy metals in cats ? (Platinum, Palladium and Rhodium). These are released out the back when the cats honeycomb breaks down (after 10K miles??) . I'd rather remove them and just get good old carbon monoxide and oxides of nitrogen !! Well maintained Engine also runs more efficiently with them removed.

You will probably find SUL cleaner too, engine runs more efficiently etc etc...

Gethin.
MY97 WRX




[This message has been edited by Gethin (edited 19-01-2000).]

MorayMackenzie

Nick F,

Re your comment about japanese imports: "hugely exceeding the emissions legislation"?

So far, everything I've read/heard about emissions legislation points to the Japanese having tighter controls over it, so could you please let us know where you have found your (very confident sounding) contrary information. I don't suppose it was Subaru UK or Prodrive P1 related info?

The nations oil-burning (forgot how to spell the D word )trucks/busses/lorries and to a lesser extent, cars and 4x4 jeep type school-run-mobiles are belting out much more pollution than all the nations petrol cars, including the de-catted benzine belters. This is based on figures from a national research organisation and they can be found in the BBS archives.

Moray
(BTW some of us have imports with very good cats and very good power )

Ian Cook

Moray,

Imports do exceed emissions regulations, but only in the cab1 tests, which is tested when the car is being started, hence why the UK cars have 2 cats and the P1 has a new design of Cat. The reason it fails here and not in Japan is they dont have this test there.

MorayMackenzie

Gethin,

** OK, you edited your post, so this is now largely irrelevant, whoops! **

Hi,

Just one ittsy bitsy little point, barely worth even mentioning, but I'me a pedantic git sometimes , CATs convert the extremely poisonous Carbon monOxide (CO) to the relatively, you could blow it into drinks to make them fizzy, safe Carbon diOxide (CO2). You aren't wrong about the heavy metals (in fact, some companies have looked into the viability of harvesting the precious metals dropped on the road!).

So if you run a de-catted car you are belting out the very poisonous CO, which will definitly kill the daisies that aren't scorched to death by your heel-and-toe downchange flames!

Moray

[This message has been edited by MorayMackenzie (edited 19-01-2000).]

NickF

I don't claim to be an expert in all grey imports, but how come the Supra was withdrawn from sale because Toyota couldn't make it meet the forthcoming emissions levels ... yet it manages to get sold here even now?

From memory, Toyota said they couldn't even get close to the UK/EU levels.

MorayMackenzie

Ian,

Thanks, that makes a little more sense of the emissions test issue!

Do you know if the tests the japanese do conduct are more strict than the UK ones (this is the general impression I have read/heard)?

Moray
(Would an uprated cat be a called a tiger?)

Ian Cook

Moray,

Sorry mate dont know if they are more strict in Japan on the running tests, but i have heard the same myself, so would think its probably right.

MorayMackenzie

Nick F,

It could be to do with the test that Ian mentioned, where the emissions are rated on startup. If the japanese are sensible (IMVHO) enough to give the startup a miss and concentrate on general running emmisions, the Jap manufacturers wouldn't have any requirement to tune the engine's cold-start to pass this test. I suspect, and Ian could probably confirm this, that the CAB1 (?) cold-start test is a recent addition to the EU emissions goalposts.

The SVA test probably omits the cold-start emissions test (currently), thus allowing jap imports to pass.

Moray

BarryK

People dropping kids off at school who live within 10 mins walk and then go straight back home. (Often in the most enormous vehicles too!)

It can't be them that cause pollution and choke kids by filling the rush hour roads can it?

NickF

BarryK

I'm sure you're right that the school run mum with a 4wd causes a lot of the pollution we experience. But might not the situation be exascerbated by people taking the cats off their cars and running for maximum power rather than minimum emissions? Or people personally importing cars which otherwise couldn't be sold (due to hugely exceeding the emissions legislation? Or even those people who use super unleaded rather than the slightly less noxious normal stuff?

(Donning flameproof suit in anticipation)

Richard F

Nick F

You must be the Burger King! (Flame grilled...)

Not sure about the personal import remark though - they do pass SVA you know which makes them road legal in the UK.

Saw something on the BBC News page this a.m about a Department of Health report claiming that car emissions "cause little harm". Dunno what to make of that but it wouldn't be surprising if it's true. I think that diesel is more harmful to health than petrol because of the particulates.

pwebb

had to reply to this one !

I live 30 yards from a primary school in a 'fairly swish' area of Cheshire - my car (a decatted sti 5 - coming to that bit later!)is covered in 'parking scrapes' done by mums in huge 4wd Toyotas etc + mercedes 'SS staff cars'....rant on... I have seen the self same cars outside houses just 3 streets away !!! - lazy sods - I blame the tabloids for putting it about that children will be abducted if they walk to school - these kids will grow up with no confidence or social skills due to being over protected by lunatic parents. - rant off.
This does cause an environmental problem of course - but people who buy cars like that don't care about anyone else but themselves anyway.

On to the de-cat thing - sure I use SUL and have no cats - so will fail emissions tests...however the exhaust from my car is a whole lot cleaner than that coming from the average 20 year old car still on the road (not if I had my way)... not to mention the 40 year old buses that have been dragged back on to the roads by de-regulated bus companies - these are the real polluters. Then there are the estimated 75% of Lorries that are poorly maintained and have had the governors messed around with on the engine - squirting neat diesel out of the exhaust - clean this lot up before you start to worry about a few petrolheads in de-catted jap cars !!

just my 2p worth - I do care about the environment though honest

cheers,

Paul W (cyclist, vegetarian, recycling eco warrior who just happens to own a de-catted sti ver 5 - make of that what you will!)

Gethin

Just out of interest, does anyone know where to find the stats for air polutants for the UK vs Japan ?? Interesting stuff this business!!

grief

Cats are all well and good but what about the extra nasties in UL/SUL that are worse for the environment than the lead that they replace ? (benzene springs to mind)

Didn't someone mention that Thatcher introduced UL fuel to get the green vote when she was in power ? Irrespective of whether it was good for the environment or not ?

So instead of simple lead poisoning, we now have a variety of carcinoma to deal with. Must be good for the cancer research/pharmeceutical industry.

NickF

A couple of final thought on this, then I'll shut up.

Re UL/SUL - both have aromatics added, SUL is worse for you (benzene, toluene etc), but neither are that nice. Both, however, are lots better for the environment than leaded petrol.

Re the Japanese/UK argument over pollution levels, the reason that the UK/EU governments went for this rather than the Japanese route was that many/most journeys are short ones, where the cat hasn't warmed up. Hence Japanese market cars may well be as green as UK ones, but not from a cold start.

Of course, put an aftermarket exhaust on it, change the chip, or remove the cat completely, and you've got an entirely different scenario ......

DanTheMan

I love my Dad, he's just retired and pops out fishing sometimes in his old C Reg Austin Metro 1000cc, but he only gets 20mpg and 100mpl (oil that is!), and do you know what ?..... the government gave him cheaper tax because his car had a smaller CLEANER more ECONOMICAL engine !
I cant work it out, but I bet its not the only oil burning petrol car, and it still passes MOT's

AlexM

Hi,

Probably better for us than calculating tax on the basis of CO2 emitted, as this is almost directly related to fuel consumption - not a strong point of the Impreza, or most performance cars for that matter.

Catalytic converters only work properly when you are at or around the stonchiometric (sp?) air/fuel ratio i.e. about 14/1. As soon as you put your foot down, the cat can't reduce CO and NOX anymore so it stops working.

Why all those smoking old astras and escorts never get pulled by the Police I'll never know. If we really want to improve air quality scraping all of those wrecks would be a good place to start.

Cheers,

Alex

AndyMc

There are lots of good enviromental stats on
The Association of British Drivers website at

Mick

iTrader: (1)

All this talk about scraping old cars is consumerist garbage. It takes about 120,000 miles to justify all the emissions produced in making a new car. A well maintained old car can do pretty well with limited emissions. I agree there are some wrecks on the roads that should be removed. The worst culprit are old trucks you can often see fumes belching out and they only do 6/7 to the gallon at best of times.
NOx is created artificially by catalysts. Those wonderfull things that are going to 'save the planet'. When the mixture runs lean they catalyse Nitrogen in the air and Oxygen into nitrous oxides - main problem with lean burn engines trying to meet forthcoming emissions legislation! - Then you need to stick on another catalyst to act as a NOx trap. I think all this car emissions stuff is a red herring. There should be limits but not so strict that a catalyst is required (I'll be putting myself out of a job here!). ?More checking is required and failures will be off the road with severe penalties for usage.
Heavy fuel users eg trucks, should have road tax appropriate to the damage they do to the roads and environment. More investment should be put into the railways and more goods transported long distance that way!
S'cuse me I guess that more than 2 penorth - I'll stop now.

Mick

Gethin

I agree with Mick. Let's not worry about our Scooby's...imported or not...cats or no cats.... and worry about the REAL problem of old vans/trucks/buses/cars belching out black clouds of nasty stuff and burning litres of oil...

sunilp

Moray,

Do you run all the CATS on your car then? (just a general question and not intended to casue offence)

Dave P

Ok confession time....

We live about 200 meters from our kids school.

One day it was raining very hard... I have a day off so I'm off to pick up the kids from their primary school... I know I think... I'll drive... so of I go

I try to park everywhere, no spaces up the road so I head back down the road towards home in the hope I find somewhere on route.

Sadly the first available parking space by this time is my very own drive.

A Very sad and lazy polluting

Dave P