Neil Smalley

To be honest, without specialist equipment and treatment it's doubtful the man would have lived

Broken neck need to be handled VERY carefully or the person will die or at least be paralysed. If you suspect spine or neck injuries you should not allow them to move at all.

Sometimes, in spite of everything we do people die



[Edited by Neil Smalley - 5/3/2002 9:57:04 AM]

Reidy

I had a few jars with a mate on Sat night - he is big into bikes and has just bought a new MG as well. It was good fun and we were well oiled by the time his missus came to pich him up at 12:30am or so...

Anyway, they were on their way home along the A11 and where the A11 meets the A14 they were first on the scene of a massive accident.

My mate (Mark) went immediately to the upside down car where the driver was in terrible shape, his neck was broken and the whole weight of the car seemed to be on his back and shoulders - he was barely conscious.

Mark just wanted to make human contact with the bloke, hold his hand and give him a bit of hope etc... at this stage Mark said that he was splashing around in blood!. Jesus.

Anyway, 15 mins later other drivers had turned up and were over at the car - the man in the crashed car was groaning and getting weak and the others involved seemed to be less severely injured. Mark tried to persuade people to right the car and relieve the man of the pressure - noboby would help in case they made things worse.

The police arrive.

My friend is getting leary with them pleading with them to help him turn this car up the right way and try to allow this man some restbite - his neck is clearly broken, he has severe head injuries and is in a lot of pain from the weight of the car. Nobody will assist him - he's cursing them saying - he's going to die and we are just stood here. Police will not touch the car before the medica arrive.

The man dies just as the emergency services turn up at the scene.

Mark, my friend is still in real shock over this and talking about it still makes him really upset.

Mark thought that the man had fallen asleep at the wheel, hit a tanker and another car and overturned.

A number of things spring to mind.

What would you do?
Should they have tried to turn the car over again?
If he had been 1 min further up the road timewise he'd have been involved!

It is a really horrific story and one that makes me think again about burying my right foot into the carpet in my car. I'm not sure if I'd have the bottle to do what Mark did (his girlfirend froze and couldn't get out of the car!). I'm not sure I'd be driving again yet after the whole experience.

Anyway, just thought I'd share it.

HKSubaru

... now i feel down knowing something died like that.

Kippax

two minutes earlier and he'd have missed it mate.

Reidy

I know, still makes you wonder though.

Driving whilst tired must be as dangerous as being drunk.

STi wanna Subaru

iTrader: (1)

Don't quote me but i think people falling asleep at the wheel is one of the major factors in road traffic deaths. I could be wrong. If somebody knows the facts please correct me.

HKSubaru

when you read the dvla books..it says that when the bloke seems to have a neck injury you should not move them..but if the ar is crushing them i am not too sure!..yeah a slight movement can damage them forever... but you never know if they are going to die or not. If they moved the weight of him and he died then..the guilt of doing that and thinking you cause the death would be bad!

Nimbus

If it was me, I probably would not have moved the car. Everything I've seen on TV about what to do in these situations say to not move the person yourself, but wait for the paramedics to arrive and asses the situation. Moving someone with a neck injury could make matters worse, as Neil said above, and lifting a weight off a crush injury would allow the damaged areas to start bleeding massively.

It must have been terrible for your friend, wanting to do something but being unable to help. Hope I'm never in that situation…

carl

Sad to say, but if your mate had moved the car and then the bloke died, he would have been potentially liable. One phonecall to Claims Direct or the suchlike from distraught relatives and he could be on the wrong end of a massive compensation claim. Conversely, if he did nothing there's no liability.

It's a sad way to approach things, but apparently the increasingly litigious nature of our society means that doctors who happen to be passing the scene of an accident will not stop to help as it's not covered by their insurance and they face being sued if anything goes wrong [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

Sheepsplitter

Sounds like the poor guy bled to death.
I don't think there was much you could do to save him.

A few years ago I was first on the scene of an accident where a Fiat X/19 had hit another car head on, flipped over, split in two and the front half had pinned the driver (a girl about 18-19) upside down on the road as it had slid to a stop.
I think she was dead already, but I desperately wanted to do something to help and tried to convince passers by to stop and help me turn the 1/2 car over. I realised after that this was most likely futile, as her injurys would have been too severe to survive.
It left me stunned for weeks, even now just writing this I get a strange chill.

dosenöffner

Something else to think about. How many people carry a fire extinguisher in their car? I have been first to a lot of accidents and I won't leave home without one. Nothing like hearing the screams of someone burning and not being able to do anything about it.

It is terrible but it is also a fact of life. People die and often there is nothing that can be done. Had the car been righted he may have died sooner. He may not of. If he died straight away as the car was righted would Mark feel directly responsible. Mark wasn't involved or to blame and still has his own life to life so live it.

DJ Dunk

iTrader: (5)

Really sorry your friend ended up in that situation.

Unfortunately, I cannot answer any of the questions, I have no idea how I'd react in that scenario . . . and pray that I never have to

banshi

Neils right leave it to the specialists. In addition to issuing speeding tickets the police deal with these issues daily.

It's so easy to do more harm than good. Mark is thinking he could have done more for this guy, which is unlikey. Had he persuaded people to move him he would inevitably be worrying that he contributed to the death.

Regreatably, it's a lose lose scenario.

fast bloke

you should never move someone after an accident unless they are not breathing. If you ever find yourself splashing about in blood, chances are that the person is going to bleed to death, but in this case, say the guy had not been bleeding and was breathing OK. Leaving it as it was would have left him in a great deal of pain until paramedics arrived. Turning the car over may have caused the broken bones in his neck to sever his spinal cord, causing instant death. If a trauma victim is not breathing he will be dead in a couple of minutes anyway, so you need to take the risk with the neck/spinal injuries to get him breating. Best advice is if you do not know 100% what you are doing you should do nothing. Personal liability aside, how would your mate feel if he had got the car turned over and the guy had died from this when he would have made a full recovery otherwise? Difference is between letting someone die and actually killing them.
Other good advice is to take a first aid course, where you will be trained in the basics by professionals

IanA

I am a serving firefighter and without the benefit of being there it sounds very much as though the casualty would have died whatever was done. It's possible that righting the car could have been instantly fatal and to have made a physical difference Mark would have needed quite specialised jacking and stabilising equipment to raise the vehicle upwards in the position it was resting in. What he probably doesn't realise is that he did an unimaginably important thing in making contact and reassuring the guy. Many people could not do this, especially in such difficult conditions and he should be pleased with himself that he was able to. It would almost certainly have made a difference mentally.

To clarify: NEVER remove any casualty from a car unless not moving them would place them in danger(ie Car on fire, in water etc) or their heart has stoppped and you know how to do CPR.

ALWAYS reassure verbally and by holding a hand, even apparently unconscious people may still be able to hear.

NEVER assume an ambulance has been called. Always ask and find out who called them or the police. If noone knows call them again.

ALWAYS think of your own safety, especially on motorways. Use warning triangles, bystanders etc to slow traffic down. On motorways try to avoid turning your back to the traffic.

Anybody who would like to be able to do more in these sorts of situations could consider a first aid course (local Red Cross or St John's Ambulance). Buy a flourescent, reflective vest and warning triangle and keep them in the car. Have a plan of what you would do if you came across something like this: Pull over safely, look all around before getting out of the car, think about other traffic before you think about the crash. Remind yourself of those three things frequently and they'll stick in your mind for when you need them.

Take care!

IanA

To those how are worried about liability. In this country if you are acting in good faith within the bounds of your medical training there is a sort of Good Samaritan thing that protects you from being sued. I'm not sure of the exact legal point (anyone?) but it is not like America, please don't be put off helping those in trouble.

SCOTTSCOOBY

There is nothing you can do in these situations, you can not move the car you can not move the injured person. you have to wait till the medics arrive and once they arrive they dont just dive in, its a slow process and very annoying to be watching I no how he feels i had to watch my girlfriend of 6 years ago die in a car crash, she died of neck injurys and sever head injurys, i pleeded with the police to do somthing but no they done sod all apart from stand there. she died just as medics got there and viewed the situation. i dread facing somthing like this again and other people having to face it, but if you think about it it happens every day, someone has to be the car following and it could be you.

Nimbus

Ian,

Excellent advice.

brendy

I am a senior A&E doctor and from what you have said the injuries were incompatable with life.
But I do have a problem with the points above - all major traumas are dealt with in a strict sequence A(airway with C-spine control) , B(breathing) and C(circulation).
If the airway is compromised and the patient is not able to breath unless you do something the patient will be dead. In trauma courses you are taught that a live paralysed patient is a better outcome than a dead patient.
If I had been at the scene I would have moved the car myself while trying to minimise any neck movements.
Sorry guys it is a complicated busness and like everything in life there is never a simple answer.

SCOTTSCOOBY

you are so right!!!! need more people like you to take charge of situations.

MarkJackon

Yep, I always carry a fire extinguisher and for 15/20 quid I would suggest you all go to Halfords ang get one today, oh and get a tow rope jump leads and a decent wheel brace.

Havent a clue what I would have done but my first thought was get the jack out and try and take some of the pressure off the guys neck. Have done a prpoer First aid course (10 weeks * 2 hours) but it doesnt really equip you for that.

Sympathies to all those involved, have seen similar myself and know how hard it hits you.

Jen

Got a list of things to get from Halfords tonight now Good advice for all I feel...

Reidy - feel for your mate, I think he did more than the majority of the population would have done, he did well, I only pray I'd react in the same way.

SCOTTSCOOBY - Hope you never have to go through that again.

Jen

SCOTTSCOOBY

jen - same here, mind you it goes through my head every now and then still and will for the rest of my life, thats why i never stated driving till age of late 24. i could not face it. now im ok im driving and i enjoy it alot. i just wish people dont go through this as its just awful trust me! all upset now going into muppet show to get a smile back!

Jen

Hang on - I'll come with you

Btt so everyone reads this and has a think...

Shark

Tell your friend he did the right thing. Any kind of head / back injury should not be moved unless there is immediate danger of death - ie fire etc.

Sorry to hear the story

David

Reidy

Thanks for your advice

I do carry a fire extinguisher and I'd like to think that I'd help in the situation but I found it really tough to watch David Beust getting his injury playing for Coventry a few yrs ago so I donno how good I'd be if faced with horribleness.

Mark said something took over and he just had to help - I hope the same switch goes in me if it happens.

The splashing around in blood may have been an exhaggerated (I didn't know I can't spell that)but this is word for word how he told it to me and I wanted you all to feel the impact. I hope it doesn't detract from his enjoyment of cars and bikes as he is a fab pilot on either.

P

stephen30

Makes you think doesn't it. I don't know what I would do if this was me although due to past arrivals at accidents with my brother who is a paramedic, not moving the guy seems to be the best plan. Probably difficult to do though if you can see they are in pain. Going to look into going on a first aid course. I've been meaning to do it for ages but you know how it is. Some of the stories I've heard from my brother from his work abroad represent similar dilemmas but in worse scenarios.
Let's hope that if it's us, someone will know what to do.

Maybe basic 1st aid should be part of the driving test.

Steve

Dave P

Ian A - totally agree. Also my instinct would be to call the fire brigade first. My belief is that if the fire brigade are called to an RTA police and ambulance automatically attend. If you call ambulance only they are almost certainly going to have to wait for the fire brigade with lifting equipment etc.

Brendy - the post did mention he was just week no mention of hime not breathing. Total respect to A&E medics.

It makes you wonder whether the government ought to be investing in first aid training . I am lucky enough to have been on a couple of first aid courses but it would appear that a lot of the previous posts are guess work. Bad first aid is not good. At my old school a teacher once gave a kid mouth to mouth without checking the airway first. Just lodged the obstruction further in and the kid died in the ambulance.

Also the old fire extinguisher thing. I saw some footage of a camper van with an engine fire once. They opened the bonet and it went bang. If petrol's involved a little fir extinguisher aint going to help.

Dave

Dave

Sieze

Difficult call. Crush type injuries are more of a problem when the pressure is released. But put it this was if my airway was compromised then I would want someone to move me. Remember a quite effective neck brace can be made by rolling a newspaper and then bending it around someonelses neck first then putting it on the patients neck. Remember in any accident the most important thing is not to put yourself in any danger.

dosenöffner

"Also the old fire extinguisher thing. I saw some footage of a camper van with an engine fire once. They opened the bonet and it went bang. If petrol's involved a little fir extinguisher aint going to help."

Tosh. A fire extinguisher course would have helped there. Pop the bonnet. DON"T open the bonnet. Spray the extinguisher in the gap.

No different from a house fire. As odd as it seems and even with the smoke CLOSE the doors and DON'T open any windows.