Gordon Shek

Sam

Thanks for the Induction Kit - I thought it was a good buy. I have a small question - is it really supposed to be that loud? It sounds fantastic but I've others but their's aren't as loud as mine! It seems to pull alot harder now is it supposed to do that? Answers would be greatly appreciated.

TFyus

Id be very suprised if an airfilter increased power on a force induced engine.

Tho the noises can be incredibly louder..

rw

Gordon Shek

"Id be very suprised if an airfilter increased power on a force induced engine."

Forgive me for being so stupid, but what's a force induced engine? (Hand on a minute and I'll get my flame/bullet proof suit on!)

And the words "Incredibly Louder" is an understatement!

Skippy

Gordon

I have the HKS kit on too, it is very noisy compared with others, thats on my94wrx. As for forced induction its when a car has a turbo or supercharger which compresses the air/fuel mixture into the engine (hence forced induction) the more fuel an engine can get the better the power, this is an over simple explanation and i'm sure someone will explain better.

Skip.

TFyus

Naturally aspirated engines have no turbo/super charger and when the inlet valve opens the downward movement of the piston sucks the air in.

With a turbo (forced induction) the inlet valve opens and the air is ramming its way in at the boost pressure e.g. 10psi

So in a naturally aspirated engine any restriction is very bad as the air is only being sucked in... so a blocked air filter or a restricitve inlet manifold and so on can hold back the amount of power.

On a force induced engine the turbo will spin faster and faster to meet the boost level. A little restriction in the airfilter will make next to no difference.

But the noises you now here are much louder... a sucking when it comes onto boost a weird chattering noise when u sharply back off and so on. The turbo has been making these noises all along just the standard air box and filter are silencing those noises.

rw

Gordon Shek

TFyus

Are you the one who is selling the MY99 rear spoiler? DMB one who was at Knockhill? Where did you go - I thought I was on a promise to go out onto the track?

Anyway, still selling the spoiler? How much?

TFyus

by the way my name is Steven_RW i dont really use the nickname tfyus it was just what i used when scoobynet first started up.

Anyhows, i own a grey rsturbo the one on the track at knockhill, i dont own a subaru.

I have built up quite alot of knowledge on turbo cars over the past 4 years and was just answering the question to aid other peoples knowledge aswell.

So to answer your question... i have never owned a subaru or part of a subaru! so im not the chap with the spolier sorry.

but u probably saw my car on the track?

rw

Gordon Shek

Steven

I did indeed see your RS at Knockhill - very impressive indeed! Thanks for the info though.

TFyus

cheers gordon not bad for a wee old 1600

as for the info, no problemos, i just try and pass on what i know and if i dont know the fact ill give an opinion but that wont be classed as a "fact" just a informed guess

cheers

Steven RW

T-uk

gordon,
i have the spoiler call me on 07771602645.i did say i would take you out but the car always had a passenger,blame ian (maxy-uk) he came out twice.remind me next time.

Maxy_UK

Dave Brown

Gordon

I had a HKS filter on mine, but had to remove it because it was playing havoc with the air flow meter (3 in 2 weeks)

At Star RR day my car had lost 15bhp by going back to the original airbox & was running slightly richer <less airflow due to more restriction> but has resulted in more torque longer through the rev range so car feels quicker.

So based on RR results a 15bhp increase (with my other mods) on a 99 Uk turbo from the HKS filter and yes it was flippin noisy...lol

Dave

Mo

I've fitted one over a year ago with no problems. With the standard air box my MY94 would run out of breath at a little over 5k, it now pulls all the way to the red line no problem.

Little or no difference...mmmmmm?

As for noise if it's not to your taste turn the stereo up, works 4 me!!

Zak.

Sam Elassar

david
the power you lost and the torque gained would most likely be due to the colder weather and small variation of the petrol and the RR. one of the most important things for turbo charged cars is make them breath better. so if you had you induction for the last RR day would have probably got even more power and torque. the best thing is to do two runs with and with out the induction on the same day.

i could be wrong though

TFyus

A turbo car is force induced. The air filter, will make no difference to power. If the turbo produces the desired boost pressure at the inlet manifold then how can having less restrictive air filter make more power? If u have a lower psi boost then yes, but an actuator is adjustable.

I know plenty cars that make very high power without changing from the std air box.

Think of a turbo engine having a restriction at both inlet and exhaust sides. Its called a turbo. Its in the way of the exhaust and the inlet. It controls the pressures and restrictions.

My car is up about 85 at the wheels on std and uses the std air box.

rw

T-uk

hope you pair are not going to start bitchin at each other on this thread now???

Sam Elassar

85 what ?

less restriction=turbo no spinning as hard=cooler air=more air molecules = more power.

what is easier sucking air through a tube going into a box etc or with out air filter at all ?

it is dyno proven so are you going to argue with that too

The Zohan

Have a look at

richm

With regard to inlet restriction - if the inlet is restricted, the turbo will have to work harder to produce the same boost, the restriction in itself doesn't reduce the airflow and hence power like a nat. asp. application, but it DOES produce more heat as a result of more work being done. This heat is transferred to the inlet charge which will have an effect on power if not addressed (reduced density, earlier onset of knock etc). Increasing the charge cooling capacity will offset this problem of course by reducing the charge air temperature.
Any pressure drop, whether it be before the turbo or after it, although not neccesarily reducing the boost pressure at the plenum WILL increase the charge temperature as a result of the work done to overcome that pressure drop.
I'm not claiming the induction kits are better or not here, just highlighting the facts..

Cheers

Rich

TFyus

85 what?

are u confused that easily?

brake horsepower.

hahah about the air thing, im sure thats all right. Dont always believe what u read.

All that u are saying is theoretically right but its just not a measuarable amount, for a start the cone might suck 1 degree hotter air thus reducing the density, thus resulting in the turbo having to spin slightly more to make the desired psi boost, this making the intake hotter if u go by what u are saying and less density and thus less power etc.

Have any of you used a charge air temp gauge? put on the airbox see what it goes to under set circumstances and then put on the cone filter. Tell me what the difference is. that could be interesting.

Also ayone with a boost gauge, go take the std air box off and run the cone filter and see if the boost rises, if it does then there was a massive restriction ( ie the tube sucking example u were giving ) im not saying there isnt going to be a difference, but atleast with those two tests u would have an idea, not just relying on a rolling road test done under different conditions.

Anyhows, alot of things have been dyno proven... but this is a bigger arguement/discussion than people would like to think. The rolling road arguement comes into it and the total inconsistancy of most of them to then try and gauge a 5bhp difference is very very hard. Ambient air temp could make all that difference as well.

Certain things i like to argue/discuss but only cause i dont believe certain things and have had it proven to me that they are bull and i only do so to try and prevent dis-ilusionment of people ( spel ).

Though the noises from a cone filter are totally wicked, and for that alone most people are happy! which i can totally understand.

Steven


[This message has been edited by TFyus (edited 22 March 2001).]

Sam Elassar

you obviously don't know subarus as much as you think you do.

they run normally rich so removing any restriction will make a small but good difference. the subaru engine ends up running leaner after mods such as air filters, exhausts etc...

i programme my own ecu map and i had to make adjustments to the mid range and top end after changing just air inductions for god's sake. changing from air box to induction requires even more adjustments the same thing applied to me changind from blitz to magnex air box. the blitz was freer flowing ( is there such a word ) and that required me to make a lot of adjustments to the top end of the map. subarus engine is very complex and unlike most other cars every map has to tailered to the car BECAUSE every little change makes a different. i am sorry you can't really urge with that becasue these are fact you porbably did not know. but in general what your are saying is probably right but unforunately it does not apply to scoobs.

so Gordens car is probably is running rich as most of them do around 12% co, so any reduction will cause a benefit.


i am sure you will argue with this as well

sam

stage 1

"Unearned knowledge is a perilous gift" was what I was once warned by a tuning guru. Steven - you dont half witter on about things you have little or no knowledge about LOL

Martin

TFyus

sam, of course ill argue with it as alot of it is complete tosh hahaha

oh well.. let me re-read all the posts a sec...

"but it DOES produce more heat as a result of more work being done. " what extra work? the turbo spinning an extra couple of times?

Anyhows i already addressed that and asked what charge air temp increase u lot saw as thats the only way of proving what ur saying. It is theoretically right but a change in charge air of a couple of degrees doesnt really make a huge difference in power. And as i said the cone filters will suck hot air anyhows say a couple of degrees above what the standard air box temperature would suck, thus leveling it out. ESPECIALLY on a rolling road where ambient temps are high and airflow is more limited... thus increasing chances of det and everything else u said.

fair?

question. What does the p1 come with airbox wise? as thats about 280 bhp i recall, PS i dont know what it comes with im not being sarcastic.

SAM

i dont claim to know subarus at all

so what u are saying is that the air filter leans them off? ok so basically a better setup of fuel air ratio would be just as good and that using the airfilter and back box to do it is a bit cowboy?

i know that changing these parts on the car will make a difference, it just shouldnt increase power on a car that is already setup right. It will just increase chances of the turbo getting impacted by dirt etc.

im not being a bam here im just interested to know how u scooby lot think



rw

TFyus

hey martin cheeky boy

haha

yeah i know ihavent down my own flow test and dont understand EVERYTHING involved here but atleast i dont think ill gain 10 bhp from an air filter!!!

rw

Shaun

I have been reading this thread with interest, and to be quite honest it makes me laugh when people talk about power increases when using Induction Kits!!

If you want noise, get an Induction Kit!!

If you want power, stick with the standard airbox and filter, or uprate the standard panel filter!!!

The BASIC law of physics states:

DENSE COLD AIR = MORE FUEL CAN BE BURNT (AND IF CORRECTLY SET_UP, INTURN MEANS MORE POWER!!)

A standard airbox will suck air in from a duct, that is sucking air from outside the engine bay. An induction kit WILL suck in air from the engine bay, that will be warmer than the outside air!!

I don't care how much more an induction surface area is compared to a panel filter, if it's warmer YOU WILL get charge temp problems.....which will retard the ignition. If you retard the ignition, again the amount of increased boost you run makes NO difference what so ever!!!!! You are only playing one off the other!!!!

Induction Kits are as much use as a atmospheric dump valve....NO USE!!!!! These are two of the single most CONS in the tuning industry....PERIOD!

I WILL gaurantee that a turbo car WILL sustain power and boost, better with a replacement panel filter then an induction kit. You just see how much BOOST you lose when it's the SUMMER, compared to what you have in WINTER!!!!!! I am losing approx 1-2psi when the external temps raise above 3degs.....all the way upto 20+degs. The temperature rarely drops below 3degs, so I never have the problems I did with an induction kit. In the Summer with an induction kit I was losing mega boost, because of charge temp probs. It may of peaked the same, but it never held as good as it does with a panel filter!!

I can only talk from experience!!! But don't believe me.......try it for yourselfs!!!!

Shaun.

2wdcossie

from induction kits to dump valves....do we have another arguement brewing???

Shaun

No argument at all........THEY ARE BOTH CRAP!!!!!!

I've seeeeeeeeeen the light!!!

Shaun.

richm

rw,
by 'work done' I mean in the physics sense, ie compressing air causes it's temperature to rise; if you introduce pressure loss between turbo and plenum for example, the extra pressure the compressor is required to make to maintain plenum pressure causes heat rise as a result. Same is true of reducing pressure in front of the turbo (inlet restriction), 'work' has to be done to overcome that. The amount of extra heat is obviously related to the amount of pressure drop involved. A decent panel filter (even a new standard paper one) shouldn't create an appreciable pressure drop.
Consider some figures - a 10"x6" panel of 60 sq.in. area with a pressure drop of even 0.1psi would be experiencing a 6 pounds force (3 bags of sugar ) which plainly an unsupported paper panel is unable to sustain..
I'm not trying to argue the case for cones here, just trying clarify the effects which must be considered so everyone can sidestep the bulls**t issues and make an informed choice.
My own opinion is that a good panel in a decent airbox is more than up to the job, but if someone else feels they are getting an improvement from an induction kit then good luck to them.

Cheers

Rich

ps i'm one of your 'lot' so we don't want to be arguing eh?

TFyus

ok rich

i think we pretty much covered the idea that an air filter filters air and the better it does that the better it is

the turbo takes care of the other business

rw

2wdcossie

Shaun

Both crap but both great for attracting attention to ya mota. GROWL...WHOOSH!!!