Anders

Nick

You have my sincere sympathy Anders.

As I type, I can hear now the sound of chequebooks being made out for a 99my PPP instead of a PE Phase 2 chip.

Lee

Possum Link

Anders

Should I contact Redline and point out their typo that "post PE1 the car develops 380 torque" and lasts 600 miles?

SDB

All the best Anders

Hope you get it sorted.

Simon

Anders

Mike Rainbird of Cosworth fame had this to say about tuning:

Dear Anders,
What I have learned is that "off the shelf" chips are a total waste of time. Every single engine (even of EXACTLY the same type) is DIFFERENT. Some will make more than the quoted bhp and some less. Obviously a "guestimate" chip does not have the capability to take any of this into account. Even the ones that can be adjusted on the rolling road are a waste of time, as the conditions on the dyno fluctuate and cannot be kept at a constant level. The ONLY way to map a plot accurately for any car is to take the engine out and put it on a proper bench dyno (you don't see the BTCC / Formula 1 teams mapping on a rolling road!). This way you can replicate any situation over and over again, take the engine to its absolute limit (by listening for the detonation with head phones plumbed into the engine). This way, you know when the engine / injectors / cams / turbo have reached their limit. As an example, say it starts to go lean at 35psi at 4000 revs, this can be seen on the lap top (and heard through the det. cans), so you know that to go above this boost would be detrimental to the engine. Accordingly at this point in the curve either more fuel could be added or the boost could be backed off by a couple of pounds for a degree of safety. You can then take the engine back to the identical position and loading to see if this has made a positive increase to the engine or made things worse. This is done at 500 rev incriments until the engine has been remapped to suit the new components that have been fitted and then engine runs at its most efficient at every 500rpm increment. This obviously allows you to try loads of different permetations to get the absolute best out of the engine (more fuel, less fuel, more ignition, less ignition, more boost, less boost etc. etc.). You then get a perfect curve that has the settings stored in the memory of the lap top. These can then be "burned" into an ordinary chip, and you then have a program that has been designed SPECIFICALLY for your car and your modifications and more importantly YOUR engine. Harvey has built engines to IDENTICAL specifications and they can still vary by 5-10bhp, for no other reason than no two engines are ever truly identical (just like people!). This is why you should have it done properly and why your engine has let you down....
If you require any proper advice on mapping the ECU, you should speak to Ahmed Bayjoo, he works in conjunction with Pectel (the engine management people) and is employed (free lance) by many blue chip companies to help them with their mapping. Harvey Gibbs is where he takes all his engines to be mapped as it is one of only a handful of engine dynos in the country that can be used by the general public (Harvey is also a superb engine builder in his own right, being responsible fo EVERYTHING on my car apart from the mapping which was done by Ahmed).

Hope this helps.
Best regards
Mike Rainbird
Norfolk Group RSOC Chairman

zoog

Sorry Anders.

If its any consolation, my integrale`s gone away to be sold......

See you soon perhaps - sorry I couldn`t make Wednesday.

Neil Micklethwaite

Anders

Just get your 'EGO' back on the Road ASAP.

WE NEED IT.

firefox

Hi Anders..

Sorry to hear about the car...

If you need any parts or help...or whatever...let me know..

J.

[This message has been edited by firefox (edited 13-11-1999).]

AnthonyJ

Sorry to (officially) hear about this Anders - don't give up without a fight!

What Mike says is very interesting, but I know for a fact that some teams do perform tuning on the race track - a friend of mine is working on a system that uses a burst radio communication system to send all of the engine data to the pit once a lap - this can then be analysed and remapped (not yet on the fly - but I'm sure that will come). He says that they use the bench to set absolute safety limits (by changing temperatures and humidity etc) but then use the track to refine this where they can take account of G-forces, airflow, resistance through the gearbox and diffs etc. This can have a significant effect on the mappings.

In my opinion, the way forward is definitely Possum (thanks Lee!) which allows you to do pretty much that. (It even breaks the map down into increments of 250 rpm!). I agree with Mike that a rolling road could never reflect real life.

Anorak Off...

DavieR

Anders,

I do hope you get your car back soon.

I find the "inherent Impreza engine design" problem a rather lame excuse. I get my UK car serviced at one of the largest dealers in Scotland, and the head mechanic told me that in his 15 years as a Subaru mechanic, he has never had to strip down an engine because of a build or design fault. Now that may just be lucky, but probably not.

I too had been considering the PE1 conversion for my car, but the dealer, who is normally extremely tolerant with my modifications - especially Scoobysport kit - warned of warranty, and engine life problems.

I don't think I'll bother now.

My car will be getting changed next year anyway, and I'll go with the Prodrive conversion then.

BPM

Please check my post under LINK in regards to the new options available with the LINK.
We totally agree that nothing beats road tuning.It is now that bit easier.

If you have any further queries , please do not hesitate to email me or we can chat online with
ICQ (45940764)

Greg Nikolettos
BPM Marketing Division
Phone: (617) 3272-8885
Mobile: 0410 678 989
Fax: (617) 3218 8880

sunilp

Sorry to hear about all this Anders, its such a shame that you get treated in this way when you belong to a group of enthusiasts who make money for all these companies and yet they turn round and behave like this towards your misfortune.

Anders

I have been asked to clarify "Oil surge".
David Power explained that on a track the car is subject to high G forces and this starves the engine of oil as the oil surges all to one side of the sump.

I do not accept this proposition.

Mike Rainbird

Dear All,
I would concur with Anthony on his comments with regard to an engine dyno, as it only sets the peak levels for engine safety and performance. Once done, the engine is restored back into the car and the "fine tuning" done with the lap top in normal road conditions to ensure that the car will "part throttle" etc. okay.

With regard to Anders comment about oil surge, I would also concur with him. The only way that Power's situation should occur would be on a constant high speed corner (such as Corum at Snetterton), and ONLY if the oil level was SO low that it "surged" away from the oil pick-up pipe causing it to go momentarily dry. The ONLY time I have heard of this happening is to slick-shod race-cars that can generate the grip necessary to cause this amount of lateral G (and only on this particular corner, as I don't know of any similar in this country).

The only way to resolve the issue would be to try and persuade one of the Pro-drive team to check the engine over to see if they concur with Mr Power's opinion. It may cost you a few hundred to arrange, but if he disagrees with Mr Power's views, then at least you have someone backing up your case, and the possible bad publicity that might develop into if Power didn't then sort it might encourage them to do so. Alternatively, if he does back-up Power, at least you know where you stand and can avoid spending good money after bad on a lengthy court battle....

Hope this helps. And I am genuinely sorry to here you are suffering so badly. The only weekness that I have ever heard publically spoken of was the so-called "chocolate" con-rods that they used on the earlier cars, causing many engine failures on the club rally scene. I have not actually seen a posting that details the symptoms of your engine. If it is ANYTHING piston or head orientated then it WILL be down to the mapping.....
Best regards
Mike Rainbird
Norfolk Group RSOC Chairman

[This message has been edited by Mike Rainbird (edited 15-11-1999).]

ALANB

Sorry to hear about your car, Anders...
I just thought I'd mention this about oil surge, I went to the last SIDC Donnington track day and ignominously managed to spin the car fairly viciously, luckily in a straight line. When I got going the car ran like a dog, misfiring ect, thought I had done something serious. Pete explained that I had experienced dramatic oil surge and most of it was where it shouldn't be. I ran the car for 15 minutes and everything cleared itself.
If I can cause such an obvious non-terminal effect through a violent manoever I can't see how you could starve the engine through quick driving.
Another point, the engine is virtually in the sump on a flat-four...
And how come nobody has had any problems on the MIRA days where they hold the car in a maximum G circle for minutes at a time?

Craig H

Sorry to hear about this. Makes me wonder...
There was something on TV alittle while ago, relating to Ford a few years back.
Cars needed a dramatic recall costing hundreds of millions of dollars. It was cheaper to let cars develop the fault and sometime cause serious injuries. It was cheaper to pay the following damegs than recall.
Now I'm not saying thats happened, but £750 per car x 50. 10% serious failures resulting in engine builds?
It seemed they were only too happy to rectify early falurse, but maybe now they're not so keen if it eats into their profit.
What they say about oil surge sounds like complete crap.
Did they ward you about it and make any suggestions beforehand?
I was considering a remap, but will definitely hold fire until I see a definitive answer from Mr Power.
This is just my opinion.

Weaver

Sorry to hear about the 22B Anders. I hope the situation is rectified ASAP.
With a failure rate as high as that surely they must be duty bound to tell people about it when approached for information and I'm sure people would think twice about having the conversion done.
Similarly if you took your car to a garage to have the clutch changed for an up rated one for example and they said "oh by the way there's a 3-10% chance the work we're going to do is going to cause it to brake and you're going to have to pay if it does". Then I'm sure most people would walk away.
What you need is a final definative answer from Mr Power. Let us know what happens...

Blow Dog

Ugh...I feel sick....22B's are sacred man.
Cem

leestudd

Hi Anders,

Sorry to hear of your troubles. Surely PE can do a better job than that ?

This just goes to show what I had heard about PE (outside of the Scooby circle). Mainly friendly and helpful but lacking in technical knowledge and more than occasionally cutting corners to get cars through the workshops quickly. One example being, fitting a replacement ECU and just programming it with a map from a similar car. i.e. you have a 95 WRX, just put in the map from another 95 WRX they had before with no further tweaking.

Let me state that these views have come from friends who have had work done there. I have never been to PE so I cannot say these alleged incidents take place. However, I do trust the word-of-mouth recommendations from friends. If they say, don't go there, I don't go there.

I value my car and will not have anything done unless I really trust that the work being done is going to work and work well. My car is the most expensive thing I own.

I know this doesn't help you. In fact I really feel for you, the 22B is nice (understatement). I don't know what I can do to help, but if you do need help, please feel free to ask.

I would initially talk to Trading Standards or the CAB. And your local Subaru dealer for technical advice.

Good luck

Cheers

Lee S.

stv555

Anders...I sympathise wholeheartedly with but this sort of thing is bound to happen sooner or later.

The commercial temptations a very high in the automotive tuning arena and when a specialist seems to appear from the ashes of the Sierra/Escort Cosworth era, one should be wary...caveat emptor.

I totally agree with Mike regarding his comments, I have been involved in both dyno testing on a chassis dyno and engine-test bed. The nearest you will get to a real set-up without tearing your clutch and tyres to pieces will be on an engine dyno within a test-cell. The final cream on the cake is the tweaking on the road.

ALANB - your misfiring problems indicate a fuelling problem not oil-surge. If you put your car into a viscious spin then the fuel in your tank (and I presume it was not full to the top) will have been forced to the periphery of the tank - like being in a centrifuge. This will have done two things - removed all the fuel away from the pickup and the swirl pot/chamber that is fitted to most fuel injected cars and secondly any dirt and water that would have been lurking in the lowest part of the tank will have been mixed into the bulk of the fuel. Before this would have had a chance to separate out the pump will have drawn a quantity into the fuel system. Hence misfiring, spluttering etc.

This is a very common problem with road cars which have been modified for track use and are able to pull high-G through corners, off the line or when thrown into a spin.

Anders

It is only fair to mention that the PE1 did make a significant difference to the power of the car.

It is just a shame that it is not reliable enough.

Behind the scenes it is alleged that the severe failure rate is 10%

I know of 3 definite cases with 2-3 to be confirmed.


On the 11/11/99 David power stated he had "done 50 cars".

With a failure rate of 3-10% I know that I would not have exposed my 22B to such risk.

GCollier

Sympathetic, yes, surprised, not really.

I don't know how much power/torque the modifications were designed to give, but we are talking about increasing the stress on an engine which is already highly-stressed anyway.

Typical family car: 65bhp/litre
99MY Impreza Turbo: 108bhp/litre
Standard 22B: 125bhp/litre
STiV/Evo VI: 138bhp/litre
BTCC/WRC Car: ~150bhp/lite
F1 Car: ~265bhp/litre

Once you start modifying these small engines for even greater power output, you're definitely bordering on or even entering top-level motorsport zone. You then expect to be able to drive at V-Max on autobahns, and push the cars to their limits around tracks, and at the same time expect no reliability problems, and longevity still measured in many tens of thousands of miles.

These particular problems may or may not be caused by PE, but I would suggest that a little more common-sense, and more realistic expectations are in order before performing such modifications.

I'm already expecting a flaming, so do your worst!!!

Mike Rainbird

Dear Mr Collier,
The reason that the BTCC / WRC cars have "only" 300bhp+ is that with the BTCC cars they are limited to 2.0 litres and 8,500 revs. However they achieve their bhp NORMALLY ASPIRATED (quite an achievement!).

The WRC cars (with a turbo) only have 300bhp+ due to having a 32mm restrictor in the turbo reducing the air flow. What you should really be comparing the figures to is some "proper" production engines - Honda VTECs which push the boundries of engine technology way past the 100bhp per litre. However, you are being unrealistic to compare turbo cars with normally aspirated, where the FIA used to apply a 1.6 times rule to get a "level" playing field (i.e. a 1 litre turbo engine would be equivalent to a 1.6 litre normally aspirated), therefore comparing the specific outputs of a turbocharged engine to that of a normally aspirated and saying that it is "stressing" them is not entirely true (although I know what you are trying to say!). However, 150 bhp per litre from a 2.0 litre turbo charged engine is NOT pushing the boundries of current engine technology and is EASLIY achievable. Getting the fuelling and ignition right for ALL sitiuations is the "black" art, and why manufacturers spend millions on development work in a dyno-cell to achieve the perfect "compromise". However, all the current Jap spec turbo cars are not far short of this anyway, and it is usually a matter of just removing the restrictions in the system for them to easily achieve this figure.

Hope you don't see this as a flaming!
Best regards
Mike Rainbird

Sonic

Sympathy with Anders, I mean it's not as if his 22B wasn't expensive enough without him spending all the extra wonga on top to get a non reliable sort of big Airfix kit.

I agree in principal with GCollier, highly stressed engine are always gonna have more reliability problems, it set me thinking though(oh dear I'm about to come up with a dumb question that's non scooby related!).

I read in TG mag (I know it's getting a bit of a slating in this BBS of late) that a new Mazda rotary engine was developing 280 bhp from 1.3 litres .. that's around 215 bhp per litre .. how do these motors work then .. ? Is that not highly stressed?

Sonic.

Anders

If I had any inkling as to the likely consequences of the Power Engineering remap I would not have considered it.

At the time of considering the remap people suggested a Possum Link, I specifically discounted it as I do not have the expertise.

Power Engineering sell themselves as a safe solution.

leestudd

Anders,

I have spoken to those in the know. (engine tuners/race prep guys)

They all say the same thing.

Oil surge is unlikely unless you were on a very high-G corner, for a length of time, on slicks, on the limit, in the dry and with a low oil level. I.e. all the above.

Also, several said even more unlikely on a 22B (or other Scooby) as the engine is basically in the sump compared to say some Ford engines, where there is a long way for the oil to go (in the vertical).

I wouldn't be supprised if the 22B sump isn't baffled anyway. Although that is my opinion, and I know very little about the 22B except:

1. I want one.
2. I cannot afford one.

Hope this helps. If you can, could you let me know anymore details ? I know this might not be possible, what with the politics.

Anyway, hope you resolve this quickly.

Cheers

Lee S.

johnfelstead

anders, sorry about your problems. It is possible that your engine died through oil surge. It is not however your fault. I have build many race and rally engines and the first rule of thumb is allways ensure oil surge cannot occur.
I have no experience of the impreza engine, however the same rules apply. The only way to GUARANTEE oil surge cannot occur is to fit a dry sump system to the engine. This is costly and requires a large amount of space put asside for the remote oil tank and piping etc. The most common fix is to fit a baffled large capacity sump pan, the baffles act as anti-surge trapps which stop the oil riding up the side of the engine yet let oil into the sump.
I have no idea if the impreza has a baffled sump as standard, the cossie for example does.

If anybody is going to know the score as regards oil surge problems i would think the barretts rally team would know. They run the most succesfull Group N (ie standardish) rally car on very sticky slicks on the isle of mann etc. with a professional driver David Higgins.

I suggest you ring them for advise.

If you need more info email me.

Hope this helps.

Blow Dog

Sonic,
I may be talking utter bollox here, but i think the RX7's rotary engine is in fact 2 x 1.3 engines, so is in fact a 2.6 litre.
May be wrong here so dont quote me.

Cem

PS. Leestud
"Although that is my opinion, and I know very little about the 22B except:

1. I want one.
2. I cannot afford one."

lol



[This message has been edited by Blow Dog (edited 15-11-1999).]

Mike Rainbird

Dear Blow Dog,
You are in fact correct - you are talking complete bollocks !
LOL
Mike