ex-webby

Hi All

Everything is really coming together with the World Distance record for driving sideways, but...

We could do with some input in terms of what kind of strain the diffs are likely to endure during the test.

The surface is very slippy, all four wheels will be spinning constantly, and there will be very little change in control inputs throughout the duration...

however, the duration may be a few hours?!?!?

Is it likely that they would be under huge stress? Or is the fact that the surface is very slippy and all four wheels are spinning likely to reduce the load significantly?

Any input / ideas for where to get this kind of data would be greatly appreciated.

Best regards

Simon

Dave P

Simon,

I think it's Coventry University (but I may be wrong) who have the car design and engineering degree.

They may have this sort of data and maybe interested in supporting your record bid with in some way shape or form for the publicity.

This is only a thought as I have no knowledge atall.

Dave

Neil Smalley

Simon,

Maybe prodrive/IM or even one of the many Subaru tuners may be able to help. I suspect the car may need modification in order to cope with the consistant loading being put on the suspension/diff etc.

Any ideas on who's car you're going to use? Not wanting to put words in his mouth but Ronnie H should be able to provide a cheap rental car for you to use. The publicity he'd get for supplying it would also give his new business a boost so it'd suit both of you.

Would it be possible to go one way round, then the other and therefore reduce the stresses involved?

ex-webby

Hi Chaps

Dave
Good thinking!! Might be worth a word.

Neil
Prodrive have already been incredibly helpful (there is nobody else more qualified and able to support us IMHO), but we are talking to IM at present in the hope that they can be officially involved. They are somewhat limited as to how much they can help until then.

Re: One way then the other... Unfortunately not. That would mean breaking the constant powerslide. The car will be instrumented so we can log the slip angle of the car to provide documented proof that the car was constantly sideways.

Thanks for the replies chaps

Best regards

Simon

johnfelstead

Si, i dont know this as fact of course as i havent datalogged this type of thing, but i'll give it a go.

The only problem i can see is if you have the inside and outside wheels spinning at a different rate, relative to each other.

This is due to the fact that the small plannet wheels in the diff will be doing a lot of work and may overheat.

in normal circumstances the planet wheels dont really get used for more than a second or so, they are very small compaired to the main crown wheel and pinion.

If you can ensure that the wheels left/right spin equally you wont have any problems at all IMHO, if you cant then you may have overheating in the smaller components in the front/rear diffs.

I think you are more qualified than anyone to tell me whether this will be an issue?

Neil Smalley

John,

Stupid question time. If the diffs were locked 50:50 then would this help the situation above?

johnfelstead

nope neil, what your doing there is contrlling front/rear slip.

the problem i am describing is side/side slip.

The only way to eliminate this 100% is to weld the diffs up, but that would make it a bugger to drive.

What really matters is if the wheels will be spinning at the same rate most of the time, if they aren't then there could be issues.

EvilBevel

John, you gonna hate me for this, but, ... why not measure this...

Diffs have oil, so measure normal temp (average road driving) of that oil. Then do a Mira sideways test for about 15 minutes. (SDB can then test his crisp eating at the same time ) If the difference is too much, you have a side/side issue.

Theo

Neil Smalley

Seems reasonable to me EB. If there is a heat issue then simon had better set up a JohnF excluision zone. Otherwise his mere presence within 5 miles would be enough to cause meltdown.

Is there anything that can be done with tyres/tyre pressures to minimise this effect. How does the WRC car handle prolonged slides on a tarmac stage for example. There must be upgrades possible.

I know SDB wants a scooby to do it, but would a RWD car be more suited because of this effect. EB is right though until you measure the effect you have no idea the extent and action required to resolve

[This message has been edited by Neil Smalley (edited 01 March 2001).]

johnfelstead

your input is always welcome Theo.

I think it wont show up as a problem for an hour or so, again just gut feeling.

defo worth monitoring though, that would give some indications but its the localised hotspots on the small gears that would be of concern i think.

johnfelstead

LOL@Neil

you sure 5 miles is enough?

chrisp

This is probably a very stupid post from a non-mechanic but here goes ......

Would it help if you had adjustable suspension and different springs on each side of the car. Also could you run different wheel and tyre sizes and pressures on each side. It could be a big job finding a balance though. Mind you if I set the car up for you it would probably go sideways without the driver intending to go sideways .

cheers

chrisp

Neil Smalley

That's what I was thinking Chris, but seemed a bit too obvious to me. MUST Be more complicated than that.

johnfelstead

This ne is heading for the muppet show the way it is progressing!

IWatkins

Chris,

I guess you could modify the car to naturally drive sideways anyway, but I think that would disqualify you from entering. Maybe it says somewhere you need a normal road car or something ?

The more I think about the whole problem the more confused I get ( ) I guess once the car is on the slide, it will stay there. With SDB's skill it will be say, constantly 20 degrees sideways to the direction travel (actually probably more). But as time wears on, SDB is going to get tired, will have to concentrate harder to keep it smooth, do corrections etc.

After an hour or so on (tell me if I am wrong here) the car is going to be getting a bit warm as its going to be on boost all of the time.

Issues such as diff oil temps. is a valid one from John. I know very little about diffs but I have to agree that this is probably going to be a problem.

Another issue is going to be airflow to the radiator, remember the car is going to be going relatively slowly, on boost all the time and sideways. Air flow to the rad and to the intercooler is going to important.

Other issues, oil surge, again not sure if this is going to be a problem or not as once the car is set up into the slide the lateral G is going to a lot lower than the initial flick into it. And as the car will be sliding on wet surface as well should be less so. But there again, the oil is going to be bunching up on one side of the sump.

Same goes for fuel, I don't know what the world record is, but I'm sure that you are going to get low of fuel as you approach it. Depending which way you circle, fuel starvation due to the fuel sloshing about/bunching up *may* become a problem.

Other main problem is can a Subaru carry enough bags of crisps to keep Simon amused for how ever long it takes ?

P.S. Did I say you could do this event DRIVER ?

Cheers

Ian

johnfelstead

Ian, temps wont be an issue re water/oil IMHO.

The engine wont be on boost either, once up and running it takes very little power to hold a slide.

I could do a full lap no probs in my Impreza sport, and that only has 125BHP.

chrisp

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by IWatkins:
<B>Chris,

I guess you could modify the car to naturally drive sideways anyway, but I think that would disqualify you from entering. Maybe it says somewhere you need a normal road car or something ?

</B>
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ian you are probably right he would have to make it slide himself .

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>
<B>

After an hour or so on (tell me if I am wrong here) the car is going to be getting a bit warm as its going to be on boost all of the time.

Another issue is going to be airflow to the radiator, remember the car is going to be going relatively slowly, on boost all the time and sideways. Air flow to the rad and to the intercooler is going to important.

</B>
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Air flow and heat - couldnt the bonnet be removed and scoop make to feed the engine from the angle of attack.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>
<B>

Other main problem is can a Subaru carry enough bags of crisps to keep Simon amused for how ever long it takes ?

</B>
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

5 door wagon

IWatkins

John,

I'll bow to your better knowledge here. As I haven't seen the MIRA circles in use I don't really have a full grasp of the problems.

But the crisps issue is still a biggy, Chris suggest a wagon I'm not sure, how long is the current record ?

Cheers

Ian

ex-webby

Wow! thanks for all the input guys....

OK...

Boost
The car will be on boost the majority of the time. John, IIRC your car needed monster revs to stay sideways. I'll be using 3rd gear / around 3000 - 4000 revs and at least some boost the whole time. Saying that... this may be reduced depending on the tyres we end up using.

Airflow
This is something that concerned me so.. What I want to do is set up ducts which face the direction of travel and chanell it into the intercooler and rad. Mike Wood also had the good idea of setting the fan to be on constantly.

Oil / Fuel surge
It is the general concensus of opinion that there is no where near enough side load to cause a problem here.

Diff Heat testing
This is definitely on the cards as it is the only big anomoly. Mike Wood (again) came up with a good idea, suggesting testing using a forester and monitoring the rear diff temperature sensor.

I personally think that the load on the diff is going to be low...

Toyo and Tyre Northampton are preparing some specially cut (we are going to test differnt patterns, etc) tyres that will very little forward grip, but a decent level of control allowing adjustment, without as much strain on everything.

This means 2 things, 1) we won't go as fast, so the distance we travell will be reduced, but 2) the diffs are less likely to be worked hard.

Concentration
I have to be honest and say that, whilst I am completely confident, this is the thing that could be the problem. We'll be at around 30 - 40 degrees (depending on tyres, etc) to the direction of travel, which only leaves a few inches of error margin in the lane at MIRA. I've done this for about 15 minutes before and could quite happily have carried on but... there was no pressure, and I hadn't been doing it for an hour! I have no idea how I'm going to cope with that level of concentration for that amount of time. But I guess that's what appeals to me most about it.

RWD vs AWD
Well... RWD seems like the obvious choice for a sideways driving challenge, but..
1) I wanted to do it in the name of scoobynet. 2) I genuinely think the scoob is the very best car for the job.

The technique required to drive an AWD sideways is far more difficult to master, but once mastered, it is far more dynamic in adjustment. No where near as quick to respond as RWD, but it also has for higher capabilities.. for instance.. you can actually get a scoob more than 90 degrees sideways and still bring it back. You can't do that in a RWD car unless you're left foot braking, and there's no way I'm doing that for 200 miles!! lol.

Thank again chaps

Keep it coming

Simon

SDB

lol re crisps!!!

Mark from tyres northampton is co-driving. One of his jobs is to manage the crisp and coke stocks and ensure a constant supply!!

Actually he has genuinely offered to climb out the window with a fuel can and hang from the roof filling the tank!!! ROFL the guy's a nutter!

Cheers

Simon

johnfelstead

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>John, IIRC your car needed monster revs to stay sideways<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No simon, that was just me being a hooligan and trying to melt my tyres. Seem to remember that ploy worked, smokin baby!!

What you need is slicks simon

P.S Mark is certified simon, he always wants first run in my westie when on a track day, nuff said



[This message has been edited by johnfelstead (edited 01 March 2001).]

SDB

IntegraR... while we're on the subject of pointless things... what did your post add to this thread?

The reason it holds an interest is that it is incredibly challenging, both from the driver and the car.

For the driver it proves that he / she was able to have complete and total precision limit handling control over the car for a dramatic amount of time..

For the car, it shows that it is so good, it is able to driven on the absolute limit for a dramatic amount of time, and provides the driver enough control to hold it there.

I genuinely don't think it is the most pointless record attempt ever. Maybe the record for how long you can sit in a bath of baked beans would be more important to you??

I can't see AutoCar writing 4 pages about it, large world respected organisations like prodrive showing a helpful interest, top secret and highly restricted testing venues agreeing to relax their security and photography ban to be involved with it, one of the biggest tyre manufacturers in the world offering their free support, etc, etc, etc.

What will you be acheiving on the day we do that?

Best regards

Simon

IntegraR

Um, Ill probably be sitting in a bath of baked beans on that day, just like every other day.
I probably shouldnt have commented, but I read what the record attempt was, and the thing in my soul that would inspire me to climb mountains, or sail oceans, just didnt click off, so I maybe did view it in too trivial a manner.
Good luck webmaster, could be a neat way of evaiding Gatso's.
PS: do you like burritos? if so, I think I have an idea......

SDB

lol

SDB

ROFL @ hoppy

If only we could harness the power of those f@rts!!

We are hoping for 3 dates... 1 - short practice to give everyone involved more of a graphic idea of what is going to happen. 2 - Full test including tyres, diffs and me. 3 - the big one.

Cheers

Simon

adyhicut

Hi Simon

Won't you need a good driver in order for it to work?!!!!LOL

Ady

adyhicut

I hear Penelope Pitstop is available!

RonaldoH

John...

Can Simon place a thermostat or similar into where the rear diff oil goes? Thus monitoring in car the temps? I would say something like a modified sump lug perhaps from front gearbox and rear....just to keep an eye on the temps? Perhaps it would be handy to find out the normal operating temps for diffs and the point in which parts are going to struggle and lose their lubrication through burning the grease off....so again, any way of using some serious high end temp grease or something? &lt;or am I just waffling?! Its too early! &gt;

Simon has spoken to me about the condition that the car will be set in, actually it seems quiet comfortable on the car &lt;my scoob is really annoyed that all these people care about another scoob so much-although I keep telling her that it is for a world record-still not happy ! Women!&gt;

So, that poses this question....tyre heat?!? All though its wet and greasy, surely there is still a high level of friction and kinetic energy being exerted through the tyres or will this be constant and pose no signicant issues? You could then encounter a blow out, or damaged tyre wall? &lt;again this is me waffling&gt;

I think it is seriously
and really hope that Si breaks the record. After all, the EVOs wont do it, unless someone removes R2D2 from the engine bay to stop 'driving' for the driver



Go for it! At the end of the day, breaking a record can take several attempts...look at them geezers in the desert with that big black rocket thing they called a car..Thrusty something! It took them like a year, to go a bit faster each time.

DavidRB

Ummm, as you're going to be travelling sideways and all four wheels will be spinning, won't the front & rear diff revert to 50:50 anyway? From my time at MIRA, I seem to remember that as long as the car travelled sideways, all four wheels were spinning merrily away.

As for using a 5 door full of crisps, what about the effect eating them will have on the weight balance? All that mass moving from the rear to just over the driver's seat?

MarkCSC

My friend is doing the car design and engineering degree and coventry I'll have a chat with him to see if they can give a precise technical answer.

Mark