Kev S

Just returned from a rolling road day and I'm not happy. I know there's been a lot of comments on the PPP being down on power from the prodrive claimed figures but mines well down.

232bhp & 218lbft (Boost was 1bar same as the other guys).

The car's standard with 9k+ miles

There was another guy there with an MY01 PPP + ITG Filter who got 236bhp and 235lbft, (7k miles). He wasn't too happy but not as unhappy as me.

I checked the air filter later and it was a little dirty, but surely this can't be it. Should I complain to the dealer? Has it got the correct map loaded? This was one on the first my dealer did back in August 2001. Has anyone else out there had something similar?

With search down I can't find anything which helps so would like advice please.

I'm going to ring the dealer Monday but any facts you can give me would help.

Thanks in advance.

Kev S

[Edited by Kev S - 2/16/2002 5:23:10 PM]

Phil

Kev

I think that is why there is a MY01 rolling road day at PE on the 2/3/02

There will be all sorts there Basic WRX,PPP'd,Scoobysported,ITG'D Induction kits etc

We can then compare all the data

Phil
MY01 PPP

haynesaj

Thats interesting. My rolling road session at PE gave me 252bhp and 234ib torque. This was with PPP and MRT grpN filter. BHP was up on PPP claim but torque down. Apparently this is fairly common.

stephen emery

me not happy ether
236 bhp and 233 t
got number from dealer prodrive 01295 2554400 ringing up on monday will keep u posted

steve
my01 ppp 7k on c5ock





[Edited by stephen emery - 2/16/2002 8:48:27 PM]

MATTeL

At Power Engineering in December I got 246BHP/245LBs.

MY01+PPP+broken rear passenger side damper.

They gave the car two runs to set the rollers up, the results where 208Bhp and 218Bhp before two runs getting the values above.

Not knowing very much about rolling road technology I would say it sounds like there was a problem where you went. I got miy limited knowledge after the guys at PE explained how getting the rollers in the right place was critical.

Mark

john banks

There are loads of variables on rolling roads. I would get a boost gauge and if the boost is to spec and if it drives smoothly and you feel the performance is fine leave it at that. I say get a boost gauge because the boost is often off on PPP cars for some reason and it seems to be the most frequent culprit for poor performance.

Kev S

Thanks guys. But I really do think something is not quite right as the boost was 1 bar (same as the other guys), and with 2 identical cars running, (apart from the ITG filter), surely the figures should have been closer. (His car had 7k mine 9k miles).

This was at John Noble's Chesterfield. General feeling was that this was an accurate rolling road from comments from others.

I'm still speaking to the dealer Monday.

Kev S

[Edited by Kev S - 2/16/2002 5:24:31 PM]

EvilBevel

Agree with JB about RR accurateness, but...

Wild guess: your dealer has :

a) not fitted the new orifice (restrictor) that comes with the PPP
b) fitted it but didn't check how it worked, and the hole is too big

They don't load maps or anything, the daughterboard will come "pre-mapped". But the torque peak (in itself a useless number) will be lower with a non-suited restrictor in place.

If I'm right, the solution will be very simple and cost (next to) nothing.

And yeah, fit a boost gauge.

Edit: oops, I see you did ... still, peak boost should be higher than 1.0 bar with a PPP, even on a MY01 ...

HTH,

Theo

[Edited by EvilBevel - 2/16/2002 5:27:23 PM]

john banks

PPP is usually over 1.1 bar in the midrange. 0.1 bar could represent as much as 15 bhp on a rolling road.

Apparently PPP on the MY01 also involves a smaller orifice/restrictor. If this was not fitted your boost would be low.

Cross posted with Theo - great minds think alike obviously m8

[Edited by john banks - 2/16/2002 5:29:49 PM]

Kev S

Theo,

Thats gone straight over my head mate. What's an orifice restrictor and how can I check it's been fitted and how do you check it's working.

Sounds like you may be onto something.

Thanks for the advice.

Kev S

john banks

{Picture does not load - see below}

This courtesy of Harry Boy. I gather the MY01 is similar. The orifice/restrictor is made of brass and starts life at 1.2mm and sits inside the right hand pipe off the turbo outlet to the wastegate.

The smaller the orifice of the restrictor, the less of the turbo outlet pressure gets to the wastegate hence the higher boost you get = why you fit a smaller restrictor with PPP.

[Edited by john banks - 2/16/2002 5:34:00 PM]

[Edited by john banks - 2/16/2002 5:48:20 PM]

EvilBevel

Kev, sorry for that ...

You have a (small) flexible hose coming from your turbo outlet to a sort of T-piece ... inside that hose (you can feel it) there is a brass restrictor. The opening inside that restrictor will influence peak boost buildup at lower RPM.

A slightly smaller hole will give considerably higher boost. We are talking increments of 0.1 mm here.

The PPP comes with a new brass restrictor with a smaller hole. If the dealer forgets to fit that, peak torque will be down on what's expected.

And even if he didn't forget ... it is my experience that different cars react differently to the restrictor change(some need smaller openings, some actually need bigger because they got overboost/cut outs).

It has no influence at all on peak BHP.

But I'm willing to bet a few beers that this is your case, given the difference with another MY01 PPP on the same rollers/same day

Theo

john banks

The Link to Harry's page is temperamental so I've put the picture again here using the uploader.

I agree with Theo.

On the MY00 PPP though if the restrictor orifice is too large you lose boost across the range even at 6000rpm, so I wonder if it could explain your peak power and torque drop?

Funny, on my MY00 PPP I had to increase the orifice size to 1.3mm after PPP was fitted then to 1.35mm with a downpipe, despite my actuator being floppier than most! Very odd these Soobaroo Imprezzas

PSI3

Kev S,
Sounds like you are in the same position as me, I had similar figures on a Rolling Road with my MY01 PPP, complaind to my dealer and they confirmed the ECU was faulty,the ECU was changed a slight improvement could be noticed but still not the sort of increase others have reported.
Then i noticed the boost was lower than with the previous ECU, i spoke to Prodrive who said the boost should be between 1.2 -1.3 (my max was 1.0). I have picked my car up today after it being at the dealers all week. The restrictor was changed but the ECU now does not seem to be "learning" so a new ECU has been ordered to be fitted next week.
As Phil has stated above i have organised a rolling road day at Power Engineering on the 2nd of March which will be mainly MY01's, from the figures on the day we should be able to see if the PPP really does vary from car to car.

simon

john banks

Prodrive defend the fact that the MY01 is only a pressure sensor remap (read posh fuel cut lifter) on the basis that the standard ECU is so clever it will optimise fuelling and ignition timing and that they have put loads of R&D and a warranty with the package. However, those that have raised the boost on the MY01 have often found it is worse than the old model at it and ends up stupidly rich. The US guys see loads of ignition retard and stupidly rich fuelling above 16 PSI.

My view is that you guys should have had a proper remap as part of your PPP like the MY00 and before had. I'll wait for your rolling road results with interest.

stephen emery

cheers chaps
will be printing this out and see what dealer says on monday

steve

Kev S

Thanks Guys this is all really useful and gives me the information to talk knowledgely to my dealer. (Don't you just love Scoobynet for this kind of thing).

PCB - What dealer are you using? I hope my dealer is as helpful as yours sounds.

Think I'll print this out as evidence to show him.

Anyone else in a similar postition?

Kev S

Active

Kev S
Was this at Chesterfield today (Sat 16th)
Bob

Kev S

Active,
Yep.....
The Plan is....
1. Take this up with the dealer, (Check restrictor / replacement ECU)
2. Try an ITG Filter, (mine is pretty filthy).
3. Make them pay for a re-test at John Noble's to prove the problem is solved.
4. If all this fails ask for my money back on the PPP.

You can but hope.

Kev S

[Edited by Kev S - 2/16/2002 7:42:54 PM]

Floyd

iTrader: (9)

But Kev, does it feel a lot faster than when it was standard? If so then be happy.

Did you drive a PPP car before you bought one and was that a quicker car than yours is now? If so, then there may be something wrong.

I didn't buy the PPP after driving one because it didn't seem like £1600-2000 pounds worth of performance. I didn't need to go to a RR to prove that point.

RR can't be compared at different locations. You have to do before and after runs on the same site, preferably on the same calibration as well.

I bet your dealer will think that your a nut trying to get him to pay for a RR session. Be prepared for a string of excuses about fuel, RR accuracy and tyre pressures. Good luck, it'll never happen

F

stephen emery

kev
maybe we could stick together on this .
having a bit of a think, noticed u were at the end of the day, couple of chaps towards the end got low read outs.
email me if you want to wife is quite a good lawyer( to say the least) and she gave me the cash for the car Tax man paid for it .

a bit of intrest was on way home with kevin stanton(kev s),(my99 turbo 240bhp, lucky bu@@er) and nothing in it ,which is intresting since reading was 240 and as you r prob aware alot lighter.
Kev s thats one hell of a motor for a standard turbo.
Anyway was expecting kev s to pull away fast ( maybe torque on my wrx helped ) but not much in it.(same i would have said).
THANKS FOR ALL THE GREAT ADVISE CHAPS < BL##dy lucky to be intouch with scooby net, mush owe a far few beers by now.

Steve

DemonDave

iTrader: (13)

At least you got more than 220 ....

but then again if haven't paid for ppp ....

Its not what you've got but how you use it.

.. on a serious point would it be worthwhile going to the next rr with another MY01 PPP that produces the power and ask to swap the ECU and try it with and without on both cars to compare before and after. Or ask the dealer to do the same.

Dave

stephen emery

hi am off to ask for a part ex for a evo tomorrow. standard evo only

Kev S

Floyd,

Seems like Simons, (PCB's), dealer believes he has a problem and is trying to rectify it.

Yes the car feels better, (gruntier), but I went to the RR day to ensure I'm getting something like what prodrive declare. It's the torque figure that bothers me. They claim 261lbft, I've got 218lbft. That's one heck of a difference which can't be put down to variations in fuel. To top it all we had an identical car, running normal unleaded by the way with 235lbft.

If you're happy with yours then fine, but I remain unconvinced.

PS: I haven't driven another PPP car so can't comment on whether mine is slow.

PPS: Dave - It may not be the ECU though. Sounds like the restictor could be wrong, (see other people's comments).

I'll have to get it back on the rollers at some stage. With maybe an ITG Filter and Super Unleaded, (rather than Optimax), plus hopefully the dealer wil find something not quite right.

Kev S

[Edited by Kev S - 2/17/2002 11:10:31 AM]

[Edited by Kev S - 2/17/2002 11:21:15 AM]

catflap

Can confirm the low results as the day went on.

I was last car in, and got 235 and 209 T, a little down when i saw kev runing at 240.

Kev when did you go on the rollers mate?

Trying to figure out why the low results, fuel was fine (optimax), boost was ok.

Concluding thougts

A) my tyres are badlw worn, can this affect fiogures?
B) The zaust ive had made fro me is causing some sort of restriction.
c) the results were lowere as the day went on.

It would be nice to see one of the morning cars get back on the rolers to confirm this.

Kev S

Catflap,

I ran 16, so next to last. If we all feel that the rollers showed a lower figure later on maybe we can get a free run out of John Noble's??

What do you think?

Kev S

catflap

Kev, i agree. But seriusly dont thing he will give us a free run LOl but would be nice

Ill have to source the problem else where but im still scratching my head over it, logic says 2 my uk 99, 1 with k&n, and no center cat and back box, should run higher than a My uk 99 with itgt and back box.

Very puzzled


Is it worth chacing kevs idea of another run up?


[Edited by catflap - 2/17/2002 3:25:06 PM]

[Edited by catflap - 2/17/2002 3:25:36 PM]

[Edited by catflap - 2/17/2002 3:26:40 PM]

Kev S

Catflap,

If you don't ask you don't get, (moaning is my speciality). I will have to go back to JN's once I've tried to locate the problem, so a moan about low figures might get me a discount at least.

Kev S

catflap

Kev if you do, then im with you.

Prehaps we should speek with rich

There was a trend in later cars runing less
Would be advisable to get one of the morning cars ther too to do a comparison as a benchmark of its accuracy (and run it in the middle of our cars)

I understand where your coming form mate, its not us being pedantic, therhas been alot of money spent ther to improve the car.

I sent 400 on that zaust system and 100 on the k&n, would like to theink that the 500 notes was not i vain, as you o i suspect with your ppp

[Edited by catflap - 2/17/2002 3:35:48 PM]

stephen emery

i fancy coming along as well chaps.
when you thinking of going
steve