Just received an NIP...
23 January 2002, 11:25 AM
#1
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and it wasn't me.
It came from British Transport Police, saying I jumped a red light at a level crossing in Shropshire on Wednesday, in my Trooper. I don't think it was recorded from a camera, as there is no oppurtunity for me to see any evidence. Which means someone has seen a car jump the lights and given them the wrong number plate.
I did use my Trooper on that day, but it didn't leave Basildon.
Now what really gets me is that a NIP has no box for me to say this.
It askes if I was the driver or not (or if I have sold the car), who the driver was at the time (there wasn't one, it was parked up in Basildon, all day), if I sold it, when and to whom.
Having given all this info, I can waive my right to say nothing (eh?) and make a statement presumably along the lines of "you have misread the number plate, it wasn't me".
Oh... and I am being informed that I will be prosecuted for Dangerous Driving, Careless and Inconsiderate Driving, Leaving Vehicle in a Dangerous Position, Failing to Comply with traffic Directions and Failing to Comply with Traffic Signs.
The offence took place at Onibury Level Crossing, A49 near Ludlow, Shropshire. If anyone lives in that area, please can they tell me if there is a camera on the crossing or if this has arisen because some D1CKHEAD FORGOT TO TAKE HIS GUINNESS BOTTLE GLASSES TO WORK WITH HIM
Not happy.
It came from British Transport Police, saying I jumped a red light at a level crossing in Shropshire on Wednesday, in my Trooper. I don't think it was recorded from a camera, as there is no oppurtunity for me to see any evidence. Which means someone has seen a car jump the lights and given them the wrong number plate.
I did use my Trooper on that day, but it didn't leave Basildon.
Now what really gets me is that a NIP has no box for me to say this.
It askes if I was the driver or not (or if I have sold the car), who the driver was at the time (there wasn't one, it was parked up in Basildon, all day), if I sold it, when and to whom.
Having given all this info, I can waive my right to say nothing (eh?) and make a statement presumably along the lines of "you have misread the number plate, it wasn't me".
Oh... and I am being informed that I will be prosecuted for Dangerous Driving, Careless and Inconsiderate Driving, Leaving Vehicle in a Dangerous Position, Failing to Comply with traffic Directions and Failing to Comply with Traffic Signs.
The offence took place at Onibury Level Crossing, A49 near Ludlow, Shropshire. If anyone lives in that area, please can they tell me if there is a camera on the crossing or if this has arisen because some D1CKHEAD FORGOT TO TAKE HIS GUINNESS BOTTLE GLASSES TO WORK WITH HIM
Not happy.
23 January 2002, 11:27 AM
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Pete,
Simply write back saying the vehicle was in Basildon all day, you have x independent witnesses to verify this (assuming it's true) and you'll see them in court if they want to pursue the matter.
Simply write back saying the vehicle was in Basildon all day, you have x independent witnesses to verify this (assuming it's true) and you'll see them in court if they want to pursue the matter.
23 January 2002, 11:31 AM
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Sorry to hear that.
The only advice I can give is to send any correspondance relating to this via "Recorded Delivery".
The donkey who bought my last car decided to run some red lights, and hadn't updated the V5 with his details.
I wrote explaining this situation 4 times, and still ended up with a court summons. On turning up to court, they had no record of my letters.
Dave
The only advice I can give is to send any correspondance relating to this via "Recorded Delivery".
The donkey who bought my last car decided to run some red lights, and hadn't updated the V5 with his details.
I wrote explaining this situation 4 times, and still ended up with a court summons. On turning up to court, they had no record of my letters.
Dave
23 January 2002, 11:40 AM
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I agree with what devils_ad69 said.
Write back, asking them for a copy of the evidence(photographic etc etc).
If it was parked in Basildon, do you have any reciepts, parking, shopping etc that can prove it was there, rather than in shropshire.
Do you have any appointments either for scoobysport or personal that prove you can't have been in shropshire at the time.
I.e
The offense happend at 14:30 and you were meeting with a client at scoobysport at 14:00. There's no way you could get from essex to Ludlow in 1/2 and hour, therefore it was'nt you.
Go to everyone you spoke to that day and ask them to write down and sign, what time they saw you and where. If the area you were in has CCTV, ask for a copy of the tapes that will prove you were there etc.
Take copies and send (recorded delivery) them with your letter to the address offered.
I suspect on the weight of evidence, or the hassle involved they will drop the case.
Hope this helps.
Failing that just find a friendly American to take the rap
[Edited by Neil Smalley - 1/23/2002 11:44:30 AM]
Write back, asking them for a copy of the evidence(photographic etc etc).
If it was parked in Basildon, do you have any reciepts, parking, shopping etc that can prove it was there, rather than in shropshire.
Do you have any appointments either for scoobysport or personal that prove you can't have been in shropshire at the time.
I.e
The offense happend at 14:30 and you were meeting with a client at scoobysport at 14:00. There's no way you could get from essex to Ludlow in 1/2 and hour, therefore it was'nt you.
Go to everyone you spoke to that day and ask them to write down and sign, what time they saw you and where. If the area you were in has CCTV, ask for a copy of the tapes that will prove you were there etc.
Take copies and send (recorded delivery) them with your letter to the address offered.
I suspect on the weight of evidence, or the hassle involved they will drop the case.
Hope this helps.
Failing that just find a friendly American to take the rap
[Edited by Neil Smalley - 1/23/2002 11:44:30 AM]
23 January 2002, 01:13 PM
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You don't have to prove where you were, they have to prove that you were where THEY say you were. I.e. a photo. which will be difficult for them since you weren't there.
Most likely a typo somewhere in the process. Ask them for the photo and it should sort itself out.
Most likely a typo somewhere in the process. Ask them for the photo and it should sort itself out.
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23 January 2002, 01:16 PM
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Make sure you sue their asses for lots and lots of compensation. These guys think that they are above the law by waiving our rights to remain silent. If you win your case, all the drivers in the whole of the UK will remember and thank you forever....
23 January 2002, 01:31 PM
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BT52,
Not so i'm afraid, in practice anyway. The burden of proof in motoring offenses seems (wrongly IMHO) to lie with the driver, not the CPS.
Drivers have been prosecuted, even though there has been a mistake made in writing down the number plate. All that happens is they correct the details in court.
Pete, Ask for a copy of the photo, or evidence sure. BUT make sure you can prove where you say you were.
The Human rights act, rules of evidence go out out of the window as far as motoring convictions are concerned
Check out
http://www.pepipoo.com for some real horror stories.
It's been known for people to get done speeding, just on the impression of a single policeman. In other words all the police have to say is "I thought the car was doing 35 in a 30". Write down the numberplate and Zap. The driver gets done.
Better to be safe than sorry. I dangerous driving conviction could really screw Pete's insurance or even affect his buisness.
I forget the how to spell Andreas Sergias's name properly. But by all accounts he's the man to get you off motoring offenses. Pete, very worth while giving him a call.
[Edited by Neil Smalley - 1/23/2002 1:39:39 PM]
Not so i'm afraid, in practice anyway
. The burden of proof in motoring offenses seems (wrongly IMHO) to lie with the driver, not the CPS. Drivers have been prosecuted, even though there has been a mistake made in writing down the number plate. All that happens is they correct the details in court.
Pete, Ask for a copy of the photo, or evidence sure. BUT make sure you can prove where you say you were.
The Human rights act, rules of evidence go out out of the window as far as motoring convictions are concerned
Check out
http://www.pepipoo.com for some real horror stories.
It's been known for people to get done speeding, just on the impression of a single policeman. In other words all the police have to say is "I thought the car was doing 35 in a 30". Write down the numberplate and Zap. The driver gets done.
Better to be safe than sorry. I dangerous driving conviction could really screw Pete's insurance or even affect his buisness.
I forget the how to spell Andreas Sergias's name properly. But by all accounts he's the man to get you off motoring offenses. Pete, very worth while giving him a call.
[Edited by Neil Smalley - 1/23/2002 1:39:39 PM]
23 January 2002, 01:34 PM
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Pete,
I would send the NIP back (recorded delivery of course ) with a covering letter stating that the vehice was in Basildon all day and leave it at that. They have to prove that is was there, you don't have to prove anything.
If they had a photo of the "offence" then under the current (possibly illegal legislation [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img] ), you would then have to prove your innocence. They have nothing on you without proof that your car was there.......
You may also want to have a look at this website and lend your support.... http://www.abd.org.uk/righttosilence.htm
Matt
P.S. Don't forget to photocopy the NIP and keep a copy of the letter
I would send the NIP back (recorded delivery of course
) with a covering letter stating that the vehice was in Basildon all day and leave it at that. They have to prove that is was there, you don't have to prove anything.If they had a photo of the "offence" then under the current (possibly illegal legislation [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img] ), you would then have to prove your innocence. They have nothing on you without proof that your car was there.......
You may also want to have a look at this website and lend your support.... http://www.abd.org.uk/righttosilence.htm
Matt
P.S. Don't forget to photocopy the NIP and keep a copy of the letter
23 January 2002, 01:36 PM
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As me mate shaggy would say....it wasn't me 
Don't send a letter these can get (lost), in the post.
Always happens always bullsh1t, was a postman for 2 years, yes 1% of all mail is either damaged, stolen or lost.
But not all the mail for the police gets lost
Get a number, ring them up, explain, let them tell you wat to do next, they will probalob ask for witnesses, give names, numbers, birthdays, starsign, blah blah.
Do me a favour and remind them that they are public servents...they are there do help the public... not harrass them
Don't send a letter these can get (lost), in the post.
Always happens always bullsh1t, was a postman for 2 years, yes 1% of all mail is either damaged, stolen or lost.
But not all the mail for the police gets lost
Get a number, ring them up, explain, let them tell you wat to do next, they will probalob ask for witnesses, give names, numbers, birthdays, starsign, blah blah.
Do me a favour and remind them that they are public servents...they are there do help the public... not harrass them
23 January 2002, 01:38 PM
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Pete - if you can wait til the weekend I'll be passing through Ludlow on the way to the g/f's place Friday night. If you can get the exact location from the police of where the "indescretion" took place I'll suss it out for you...
If this is a go-er e mail me your mobile no.
askewrichard@hotmail.com
If this is a go-er e mail me your mobile no.
askewrichard@hotmail.com
23 January 2002, 01:44 PM
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Pete,
With the changes to the Data Protection Act in 1998 (now fully in place as of October 2001), photographs and CCTV footage that identifies you is also covered.
If they are funny about giving the photo then you could try this.
Just a thought.
Hope you get it sorted out.
Mark
With the changes to the Data Protection Act in 1998 (now fully in place as of October 2001), photographs and CCTV footage that identifies you is also covered.
If they are funny about giving the photo then you could try this.
Just a thought.
Hope you get it sorted out.
Mark
23 January 2002, 02:37 PM
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Thanks Guys, some really constructive stuff here.
I have tried to ring the transport copper that issued the NIP, but here's in a meeting somewhere. I've left my number, but will be amazed if I get a call back.
I'm reasonably happy, that my where abouts (and nore importantly those of my Trooper) can be proved. And not just proved by my staff, but by people I don't know.
Just imagine if I had been working at home, had seen no one all day and couldn't prove my where abouts.
I have tried to ring the transport copper that issued the NIP, but here's in a meeting somewhere. I've left my number, but will be amazed if I get a call back.
I'm reasonably happy, that my where abouts (and nore importantly those of my Trooper) can be proved. And not just proved by my staff, but by people I don't know.
Just imagine if I had been working at home, had seen no one all day and couldn't prove my where abouts.
23 January 2002, 02:42 PM
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Pete - IIRC there is NO railway crossing on the A49!!! the nearest one to the A49 is the one I mentioned which leads from the A40 up a little road to the Racecourse and golf course.
If you can get the EXACT details from plod then I can recce properly and take photo's if needs must mate
If you can get the EXACT details from plod then I can recce properly and take photo's if needs must mate
23 January 2002, 02:44 PM
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http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.c...multimap.y=271 Richard, this is north west of Ludlow on the A49.
23 January 2002, 02:46 PM
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Just imagine if I had been working at home, had seen no one all day and couldn't prove my where abouts.
Maybe work would let me post every 15 minutes on scoobynet to prove i'm at home and not racing about the roads....
Pete, Keep us informed
[Edited by Neil Smalley - 1/23/2002 2:46:26 PM]
23 January 2002, 02:49 PM
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...oh THAT railway crossing
..yep I know the one...I'll have a blast up there on Saturday mate...ps if you've ever been over that one you'll remember it (apart from me who forgot about that one) cos you get very airbourne indeed...
..yep I know the one...I'll have a blast up there on Saturday mate...ps if you've ever been over that one you'll remember it (apart from me who forgot about that one) cos you get very airbourne indeed...
23 January 2002, 02:56 PM
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Neil
The internet only proves that someone posted/mailed, it doesn't prove YOU were anywhere.
I have posted on Scoobynet from a laptop linked to my mobile, when in Spain. If there were a way of linking a PC to a post, how would you prove it was you and not a friend acting on your instructions.
All of this is very Orwellian and very scary. I'm not having a good day
The internet only proves that someone posted/mailed, it doesn't prove YOU were anywhere.
I have posted on Scoobynet from a laptop linked to my mobile, when in Spain. If there were a way of linking a PC to a post, how would you prove it was you and not a friend acting on your instructions.
All of this is very Orwellian and very scary. I'm not having a good day
23 January 2002, 03:03 PM
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Damn,
Mind you you'd have a job using the net while jumping a red light or speeding.
Also it's a bit far fetched to say to a mate "I'm just going out to speed now. post a few times to cover for me just in case I get caught."
There have been cases in the US where BBS entries have been used to help prove the person was'nt there. But knowing the CPS it would'nt wash with them, as they seem to operate on a different criteria to most people(and indeed most police)
If you want to be scared check out this table of what they can get away with http://www.pepipoo.com/Differences_table.htm
Mind you you'd have a job using the net while jumping a red light or speeding.
Also it's a bit far fetched to say to a mate "I'm just going out to speed now. post a few times to cover for me just in case I get caught."
There have been cases in the US where BBS entries have been used to help prove the person was'nt there. But knowing the CPS it would'nt wash with them, as they seem to operate on a different criteria to most people(and indeed most police)
If you want to be scared check out this table of what they can get away with http://www.pepipoo.com/Differences_table.htm
23 January 2002, 03:22 PM
#24
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Pete,
I am familiar with this level crossing and cannot recall any fixed cameras at this location. I have a friend who lives in Craven Arms just up the road and he is sure there are no fixed cameras there either (his Geodesy has never gone off anyway). He did say however that there has been use of mobile cameras on this stretch of road in the past. (fast road - ideal revenue earner etc).
By the way have you thought that someone might have cloned your car and be driving about with your reg number. I had a similar thing happen many years ago and the other driver ran up a number of parking fines, not as serious as your incident I know, I informed authorities that was'nt in area at time of offences (opposite side of country to me )and that my car was off the road anyway - never heard anymore.
Hope this helps
Tim
I am familiar with this level crossing and cannot recall any fixed cameras at this location. I have a friend who lives in Craven Arms just up the road and he is sure there are no fixed cameras there either (his Geodesy has never gone off anyway). He did say however that there has been use of mobile cameras on this stretch of road in the past. (fast road - ideal revenue earner etc).
By the way have you thought that someone might have cloned your car and be driving about with your reg number. I had a similar thing happen many years ago and the other driver ran up a number of parking fines, not as serious as your incident I know, I informed authorities that was'nt in area at time of offences (opposite side of country to me )and that my car was off the road anyway - never heard anymore.
Hope this helps
Tim
23 January 2002, 03:23 PM
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Just had a another thought
if "The internet only proves that someone posted/mailed, it doesn't prove YOU were anywhere" then the same goes for a speed/red light camera picture. That only proves the car was there, not the driver. If an internet BBS entry is inadmissable, then therefore the speed/red light camera photo should be also..
if "The internet only proves that someone posted/mailed, it doesn't prove YOU were anywhere" then the same goes for a speed/red light camera picture. That only proves the car was there, not the driver. If an internet BBS entry is inadmissable, then therefore the speed/red light camera photo should be also..
23 January 2002, 05:18 PM
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I believe the police have also used mobile phone company records to show where a phone (and implicitly the owner) was at a certain time of day to successfully CONVICT someone who said he wasn't there. Big thing about 2 yrs ago.
Mind, this was for murder IIRC. Not sure if the mobile co want to trawl through their records to get you off a "poxy little" NIP.
Orwellian indeed, but it shouldn't come to that. Should it?
BJH
Mind, this was for murder IIRC. Not sure if the mobile co want to trawl through their records to get you off a "poxy little" NIP.
Orwellian indeed, but it shouldn't come to that. Should it?
BJH
