FMIC question
27 May 2007, 07:33 AM
#2
More power and torque once the air reaches your engine. the downside is due to increased pipework lag will become an issue. Depends on how far you want to go and what sort of driving you do. For fast road use top mount is probably the better option for track the FMIC.
27 May 2007, 08:01 AM
#3
The FMIC is a better option full stop! It is much more efficient at keeping charge temps down than a top mount and once correctly mapped the lag is rarely and issue. Fast road, track and motorway driving can all see high temps with top mounts.
27 May 2007, 08:25 AM
#4
Scooby Regular
That`s what i was going to ask P1 FEK, surely the lag would hardly be noticed once the car had been mapped after fitting one.? That`s defo my next modifcation without doubt.
27 May 2007, 08:46 AM
#5
Mapping is the key. IMHO i did'nt notice any extra lag when I fitted mine and it was mapped, but during the mapping session we could see that the inlet temps were very low and stable, I doubt this would of been the case with a top mount.
27 May 2007, 09:19 AM
#7
Yeah it is a big improvement but not as good as a FMIC. look at this by Andy Forrest.
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27 May 2007, 10:11 AM
#9
Are you measuring this/have any proof of this?
Sure some FMIC's are better at charge temp reduction than the STD STi TMIC but not all of them.
On mine, with STD STi TMIC with charge temps logged at the throttle body:
- fast road.... never more than ambient +10C
- track .... max ambient +15C
- motorway .... ambient + 1C
If you spend a little time and effort working out what causing the temp rises, you can fix them easily without spending the £1000 plus that you would need to in order to get a good FMIC that would improve the situation.
Hardly a problem that needs to be solved but then you could put your FMIC on along with your hot air induction kit and it would look great
- but when have facts been needed for the majority of people that put on FMIC's.
27 May 2007, 12:11 PM
#11
Recent tests by Japanese Performance Magazine proved that a decent FMIC easily out performs a top mount.
Once boost is raised, as many owners do, inlet charge temps increase and top mounts are simply not as efficient in dealing with this.
Have'nt many Impreza's have suffered engine failure due to high charge temps causing no.3 cylinder to run hot?
Inlet temps are always monitored during mapping.
"If you spend a little time and effort working out what causing the temp rises, you can fix them easily without spending the £1000 plus that you would need to in order to get a good FMIC that would improve the situation."
How else would you suggest lowering charge temps effectively without using a FMIC?
Once boost is raised, as many owners do, inlet charge temps increase and top mounts are simply not as efficient in dealing with this.
Have'nt many Impreza's have suffered engine failure due to high charge temps causing no.3 cylinder to run hot?
Inlet temps are always monitored during mapping.
"If you spend a little time and effort working out what causing the temp rises, you can fix them easily without spending the £1000 plus that you would need to in order to get a good FMIC that would improve the situation."
How else would you suggest lowering charge temps effectively without using a FMIC?
Another case of ScoobyNet misinformation/myth
Are you measuring this/have any proof of this?
Sure some FMIC's are better at charge temp reduction than the STD STi TMIC but not all of them.
On mine, with STD STi TMIC with charge temps logged at the throttle body:
- fast road.... never more than ambient +10C
- track .... max ambient +15C
- motorway .... ambient + 1C
If you spend a little time and effort working out what causing the temp rises, you can fix them easily without spending the £1000 plus that you would need to in order to get a good FMIC that would improve the situation.
Hardly a problem that needs to be solved but then you could put your FMIC on along with your hot air induction kit and it would look great - but when have facts been needed for the majority of people that put on FMIC's.
Are you measuring this/have any proof of this?
Sure some FMIC's are better at charge temp reduction than the STD STi TMIC but not all of them.
On mine, with STD STi TMIC with charge temps logged at the throttle body:
- fast road.... never more than ambient +10C
- track .... max ambient +15C
- motorway .... ambient + 1C
If you spend a little time and effort working out what causing the temp rises, you can fix them easily without spending the £1000 plus that you would need to in order to get a good FMIC that would improve the situation.
Hardly a problem that needs to be solved but then you could put your FMIC on along with your hot air induction kit and it would look great
- but when have facts been needed for the majority of people that put on FMIC's.
27 May 2007, 12:31 PM
#12
so the article that proved without doubt that if you spent replaced a WRX TMIC (unmapped) with a FMIC & mapped it, you would get a power increase of 13 bhp ...... hmmm that was £1500 well spent.
The STi TMIC was not tested in that.
What else can you do?
Lots.... the answers are all here on SN if you look for them.
Is your air going into the engine as cold as it can be? or are you running an induction kit that takes hot air from the engine.
Have you contained the underboonet heat by lagging what needs to be lagged?
Are you stopping unnecessary heat being transferred to the air charge by re-routing coolants feeds away from the throttle body?
Like I said in my post, my charge temps are not a problem - I measure mine - how many of you are even aware if there is an issue with your car? - Have you even got a Air Charge Temp gauge?
Sure for continuos track work FMIC's are a great idea as Andy F states on his page - but how many of you fitting FMIC are taking your car on track? Let alone for sustained periods of abuse. Mine does go on track and I monitor the temperatures - still with the STi TMIC and these are well within acceptable ranges at the moment. (and with increased boost too)
By all means get an FMIC but dont you think that before coming to the conclusion that one is 'needed' - get your own facts. For the sake of a few selected modifications and a bit of logic along with fitting of a charge temp gauge to see what is working and what isnt workiing you will find out whether one is really necessary.
I have and at present one is not required.
btw - Do you think that lichfields are barking up the wrong tree with the T25 using a TMIC?
The STi TMIC was not tested in that.
What else can you do?
Lots.... the answers are all here on SN if you look for them.
Is your air going into the engine as cold as it can be? or are you running an induction kit that takes hot air from the engine.
Have you contained the underboonet heat by lagging what needs to be lagged?
Are you stopping unnecessary heat being transferred to the air charge by re-routing coolants feeds away from the throttle body?
Like I said in my post, my charge temps are not a problem - I measure mine - how many of you are even aware if there is an issue with your car? - Have you even got a Air Charge Temp gauge?
Sure for continuos track work FMIC's are a great idea as Andy F states on his page - but how many of you fitting FMIC are taking your car on track? Let alone for sustained periods of abuse. Mine does go on track and I monitor the temperatures - still with the STi TMIC and these are well within acceptable ranges at the moment. (and with increased boost too)
By all means get an FMIC but dont you think that before coming to the conclusion that one is 'needed' - get your own facts. For the sake of a few selected modifications and a bit of logic along with fitting of a charge temp gauge to see what is working and what isnt workiing you will find out whether one is really necessary.
I have and at present one is not required.
btw - Do you think that lichfields are barking up the wrong tree with the T25 using a TMIC?
27 May 2007, 12:57 PM
#13
"Is your air going into the engine as cold as it can be? or are you running an induction kit that takes hot air from the engine."
This is not as relevent as you make out, a couple of degrees colder at the air filter is not going to make much difference it's the air temp once it's passed through the hot turbo and the efficiency of the intercooler that counts. Look at the RCM and GGR cars they all run with large cone filters in the engine bay and concentrate on cooling the air after the turbo.
Most of the suggestions you make are valid but have a minor effect in comparison to having a decent intercooler. I'm sure that if you switched to a FMIC on your own car you would see a further drop in charge temps.
I'm not saying that a TMIC can't do the job, it's just that it can't do the job as well as a FMIC. Many cars are use for fast road and motorway driving even if not used for track use and can benifit from a FMIC.
I belive Litchfield T25 is based on the Spec C and the Spec C is fitted with a different radiator, water pump and additional engine & transmission oil coolers for improved cooling under track conditions as well as an intercooler spray. These additions must be made for a reason due to the increased engine temps.
This is not as relevent as you make out, a couple of degrees colder at the air filter is not going to make much difference it's the air temp once it's passed through the hot turbo and the efficiency of the intercooler that counts. Look at the RCM and GGR cars they all run with large cone filters in the engine bay and concentrate on cooling the air after the turbo.
Most of the suggestions you make are valid but have a minor effect in comparison to having a decent intercooler. I'm sure that if you switched to a FMIC on your own car you would see a further drop in charge temps.
I'm not saying that a TMIC can't do the job, it's just that it can't do the job as well as a FMIC. Many cars are use for fast road and motorway driving even if not used for track use and can benifit from a FMIC.
I belive Litchfield T25 is based on the Spec C and the Spec C is fitted with a different radiator, water pump and additional engine & transmission oil coolers for improved cooling under track conditions as well as an intercooler spray. These additions must be made for a reason due to the increased engine temps.
27 May 2007, 01:50 PM
#14
Have you looked at what cold air feed the RCM & GGR cars have got in place?
On the T25 How are any of those oil, transmission and water coolers going to effect the air charge temp? Have you noticed the fog light surround is used on the T25 to feed cold air into the airbox? ... I wonder why they do that? .. oh i know - colder air
5 Degrees colder intake air = 5 degrees colder charge temp.
Do you measure your charge temps?
On the T25 How are any of those oil, transmission and water coolers going to effect the air charge temp? Have you noticed the fog light surround is used on the T25 to feed cold air into the airbox? ... I wonder why they do that? .. oh i know - colder air
5 Degrees colder intake air = 5 degrees colder charge temp.
Do you measure your charge temps?
27 May 2007, 02:03 PM
#15
5 Degrees colder intake air WILL NOT = 5 degrees colder charge temp after it has been through a hot turbo. The turbo will heat the air to virtually the same temp.
The fog light air intake helps provide a continous air supply to the air box which now has a larger turbo to feed. No point having a larger turbo and a small inlet hole in the airbox feeding it!!
The extra coolers help keep the abient engine temps down and cool the engine and thus the transfer of heat away from the cylinders.
My inlet temps are very low due to the large FMIC I have.
The fog light air intake helps provide a continous air supply to the air box which now has a larger turbo to feed. No point having a larger turbo and a small inlet hole in the airbox feeding it!!
The extra coolers help keep the abient engine temps down and cool the engine and thus the transfer of heat away from the cylinders.
My inlet temps are very low due to the large FMIC I have.
- what rubbish.
27 May 2007, 02:55 PM
#18
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Personally I will stick to a TMIC, not because of the lag issue associated with the increased pipework but also due to the weight increase at the front. Some FMIC kits can be very heavy.
27 May 2007, 02:59 PM
#19
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...1/DSC00624.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...1/DSC00625.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...1/DSC00610.jpg
RCM car, large cone filter in the engine bay and a large FMIC. Very nice by the way!
I don't see what my inlet or charge temps have to do with anything, I don't know what they are off the top of my head.
The original question was is there a benifit to having a FMIC over a TMIC and the answer is yes. A TMIC is simply is not as efficient as a FMIC you can't argue with physics. FMIC's have a larger surface area and are postioned in a cool area reducing heat soak and ensuring an adequate cool air flow at all speeds. TMIC have a much smaller surface area and susceptible to under-bonnet heat, especially following being stationary after heavy driving.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...1/DSC00625.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...1/DSC00610.jpg
RCM car, large cone filter in the engine bay and a large FMIC. Very nice by the way!
I don't see what my inlet or charge temps have to do with anything, I don't know what they are off the top of my head.
The original question was is there a benifit to having a FMIC over a TMIC and the answer is yes. A TMIC is simply is not as efficient as a FMIC you can't argue with physics. FMIC's have a larger surface area and are postioned in a cool area reducing heat soak and ensuring an adequate cool air flow at all speeds. TMIC have a much smaller surface area and susceptible to under-bonnet heat, especially following being stationary after heavy driving.
27 May 2007, 03:06 PM
#20
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...1/DSC00624.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...1/DSC00625.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...1/DSC00610.jpg
RCM car, large cone filter in the engine bay and a large FMIC. Very nice by the way!
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...1/DSC00625.jpg
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...1/DSC00610.jpg
RCM car, large cone filter in the engine bay and a large FMIC. Very nice by the way!
Have you got a charge temperature gauge?
If not - how did you know there was an issue that needed solving or what you have done has actually fixed it?
The original question was is there a benifit to having a FMIC over a TMIC and the answer is yes. A TMIC is simply is not as efficient as a FMIC you can't argue with physics. FMIC's have a larger surface area and are postioned in a cool area reducing heat soak and ensuring an adequate cool air flow at all speeds. TMIC have a much smaller surface area and susceptible to under-bonnet heat, especially following being stationary after heavy driving.
27 May 2007, 05:59 PM
#22
The car in the pics is not mine but a recently built RCM P1 and probably one of the best in the country, I'm sure they know what they are doing and have obviously gone for a FMIC and cone ffilter for a reason, or are you suggesting they don't know what they are doing either?
After researching into the mods I wanted to do I decided that a FMIC was more suitable as my standard intercooler would be limited at 330bhp according to Andy Forrest, again I think he knows what he's talking about!
"The effectiveness of the OE intercoolers varies throughout the years. The early 93-96 slanty type will limit power to around 300 bhp whilst the 99-00 can run to around 330 bhp. The STI MY01 onwards is capable of over 380bhp with an appropriately sized turbo."
Of course a STI MY01 onwards TMIC is capable of 380bhp it is not as efficient as a FMIC, if you dont believe me then I suggest you have a word with Andy Forrest or RCM.
After researching into the mods I wanted to do I decided that a FMIC was more suitable as my standard intercooler would be limited at 330bhp according to Andy Forrest, again I think he knows what he's talking about!
"The effectiveness of the OE intercoolers varies throughout the years. The early 93-96 slanty type will limit power to around 300 bhp whilst the 99-00 can run to around 330 bhp. The STI MY01 onwards is capable of over 380bhp with an appropriately sized turbo."
Of course a STI MY01 onwards TMIC is capable of 380bhp it is not as efficient as a FMIC, if you dont believe me then I suggest you have a word with Andy Forrest or RCM.
27 May 2007, 06:24 PM
#26
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27 May 2007, 06:31 PM
#28
Your hybrid intercooler may well be adequate at the moment depending on your current mods, turbo and boost. Future mods may require and change to a FMIC to ensure low charge temps, many owners change to a FMIC early on and enjoy the benifits. Many classic owners do this because at high speed the oncomming air hits the front of the car and actually "bounces" over the scoop thus dramatically reducing the effectiveness of the TMIC which can lead to engine failure and this is the reason for the larger raised scoop on later cars.
27 May 2007, 06:47 PM
#30
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Many classic owners do this because at high speed the oncomming air hits the front of the car and actually "bounces" over the scoop thus dramatically reducing the effectiveness of the TMIC which can lead to engine failure and this is the reason for the larger raised scoop on later cars.
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tbh its only driven accationally at weekends and hardly see's 60mph unless i take it out on my own.