tharoka

I was wondering is this is going to happen and who will be the first to offer this. I understand that it is a logical step on the evolution of the mapping options and that it can be an advantage for both mapper and customer...

I also noticed that one of the most reputed software available i.e. Ecutek is getting old fashioned, since aparently they have avondoned their latest developments, like the user mapping software, the various maps availability and wath it seems worse to me, a desesperate movement to keep users in a forced way (as can see in http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1027462 ). Even they have their own webpages forum disregarded... ( http://forum.ecutek.com/topic.asp?TO...10&whichpage=1 ).

Feel free to correct any wrong info from this post.

Also please note that I always wanted my car to be Ecutek'ed (but it has been impossible for various reasons), and I feel that now is a must to consider other options.

Shark Man

When will the day be before a Scooby owner gets brave enough to build and fit and map Megasquirt ECU?

IMO, the industry intentionally dumbs down their customers. I'm not saying mapping is easy, but when given teh right tools and experience it's not as hard as they make it out to be. But they charge a premium for doing so.

And therin lies the issue...££££

The Fixer

Yes this is all well and good but how many of your engines are you prepared to destroy whilst gaining the "experience" that professional tuners charge you for?

As they say...... a little knowledge can sometimes be dangerous

Professional tuners can charge for the service because all the groundwork has been done and the experience has already been gained, you are merely paying for a service, much like you would do with a plumber.

Shark Man

Must admit there is adifferent atuitude in the UK to the US with tuning - especially DIY.

Yanks will **** up the boost, it blows it up, and they'll say "oh well, my stupid fault". Build another engine and run a little less BHP.

Brits, will **** up the boost, or tell a mapper to get as much BHP as possible. It blows up, owner says: "why? I thought Subarus were reliable, it must be the fault of the garage who serviced it last, or the wrong oil, or a bad batch of optimax, duff MAF, but its definetly not MY fault, I can't afford a new engine, what can a do, pls hlp me plz plz plz cos i'm stoopid"

Dream Weaver

DIY mapping isn't easy at all, even if you have the wideband lambda stuff, and access to a rolling road/dyno. Mapping on the road is near impossible.

I'd rather pay for someone to do my mapping, but running an Emerald M3D means I dont have to pay silly prices for it.

As above though, I never understand whythere aren't more of you Scooby boys with aftermarket ECU's, or even self fit Megasquirt jobs?

Fitting an ECU and making the wiring loom is fairly straight forward, the MS is more involved as you have to build the thing.

DCI Gene Hunt

What utter dribble................ based on................NOTHING

Shark Man

As if you know anymore

BTW I phoned my missus. She said she wouldn't touch a little *****

DCI Gene Hunt

Was that after you said you were coming home for lunch?!?.... still I managed to keep her happy for an hour this morning

JTaylor

Just started to become an interesting thread this. Give it a break on this one Pete, please.

john banks

Is Megasquirt compatible with the Subaru crank and cam sensor triggers?

ZEN Performance

Any classic subaru owner can map their own ECU with a PowerFC, and even amoung those that already have a PFC, almost none map their own. Even accomplished enthusiasts choose to have a dedicated mapper tune their cars, not without good reason.

As an authorised Ecutek reseller, I await to see what happens in the broader sense. One trader is already selling openECU based mapping, but they are still only cheaper to the tune of an Ecutek license. Ultimately you are paying for the skill of the mapper, and even then the public have been known to get variable results.

If you're aware of the risks, go for it, that's what I did.

Paul

stevebt

iTrader: (8)

common sense to pay someone like Zen {above} as that way you stand a chance of your engine not blowing up the subaru engine can cope with alot of power once mapped correctly, its all the people upping the boost on their cars with no mapping tha tend to blow their engines up!!!

frayz

iTrader: (7)

The mapper i think Paul is refering to is Zak @ Mocom Racing.

See this link

http://shop.scoobynet.co.uk/Product.asp?ProductID=1234 or contact him direct at info@mocomracing.com

My STI 7 has been mapped by Zak using openecu software with fantastic results. Im so glad i took my car to him and after the service and knoledge i experienced there means i will never go elsewhere.

Im not gonna try and tell you lot how good he is, blah blah blah...

You go find out for yourself.

I promise anyone they will not be disappointed!!

Andy.F

I'd agree with Paul. The software system used is simply the tool and Ecutek is the best tool available in my opinion.
I'll continue to use the best tool, even if it is more expensive.

Andy

frayz

iTrader: (7)

Im sure i'll be shot down for dare questioning the man that is regarded as the Subaru mapping God of the UK but here goes nothin.

Andy,

In your opinion, what makes Ecutek a better tool?

Im a prototype engineer by trade so am not unfamiliar with tools as such.

In a different senario:

Snap-On used to be regarded as the best tools money could buy.

In years gone by this was very much the case. However the latest line of, say.... Halfords professional tools are in my opinion just as good if not better.

Does this still make the Snap-On kit a better tool for the job?

IMO this is exactly the same as the Openecu / Ecutek discussion.

Less expensive tools are more than qualified to do a perfect job.

The Ecutek licence is just a way of Ecutek keeping a regular income.

Regards

Frayz

tharoka

How nice the forums are! I was not aware of the existence of neither the Megasquirt nor the Emerald M3D (and discovered Openecu few days ago).

Shark: I consither that the experience, as Conrad_Bradley pointed, is the key, at least for me. So IMO the most important point is 'who' clearly over 'what EMS'. I'm also shure that I would pay a mapper for her knowledge and skills.

Pavlo: I'm with you, and as stated before, I trust and value highly the experienced mapper. But what I dont want to do is 'to marry' with a brand which I'm paying to. So what other options are available?. The sad point is that I allready own a MY06 (so no PFC for us newage users), so the non marrying alternatives are not that much. And here is where Openecu and similars gains protagonism. Are you aware of the apexi P-NBC for the new ages? I also would be happy paying you or any mapper more for a mapping with Openecu than the amount you would charge for a mapping discounting the value of the Ecutek lisence, if the final price would be cheaper than full Ecutek route. In this case you would get more money and it would be cheaper for the me, isnt it (asuming Openecu is comparable tu Ecutek, specs wise)? That is the reason why I say in the firts post it could be beneficial for both parts. Correct me if I'm wrong.

stevebt: I also agree with you

frayz: neither the link nor the scoobyshop is working for me right now, maybe its down, I'll try tomorrow. Anyway, thanks for your advice, but since I know not to much from Mocomracing or Zak, I'll prefer to get the job from as say, Paul, Andy F, Bob R or R. Bulmer... Should contact all of them, incluthing Zak to get their thoughts.

Andy: whould you mind to name the advantages from Ecutek over Openecu, for example?

frayz

iTrader: (7)

Tharoka:

Like i said im not going to preach, i'll let people find out for themselves.

Im not a pub talk person and am not interested in BHP figures as such. Performance to me should be measured using "in gear" acceleration times.

I speak as i find, not by what i hear.

Its clear the Ecutek tuners will have a bias view IMO as they need to protect their interests of which i fully respect.

But,

People need to be aware that Openecu is out there and having experience of having watched both programs used extensively i dont see any difference.

The only initial advantage of Ecutek is that they provide the Ecu table locations where as the Openecu doesnt. (This is only applicable to the mapper)

This is a minor job for the mapper.. not the customer, and only really has to be done once on each variant/model year of ECU for the very first time it is used.

This will have been done when the mapper very first uses the program and wont involve the customer whatsoever.

Best of luck

Frayz

Dream Weaver

I would've thought you could use any ECU on any engine, be they Motec, Emerald, Ecutek, KMS, Megasquirt, Omex, DTA or the other big name brands.

Is there something special about the Impreza engines that stops people from using aftermarket ECU's, other than Ecutek? Not being funny, its a genuine question as i've never seen a Scoob listed with anything other than PPP/Ecutek or std ECU.

Oldfella

iTrader: (3)

May I respectfully suggest that you consider adding Pat Herborn to your list

Oldfella

iTrader: (3)

Ok then, to break your 'duck' mine has a Motec

frayz

iTrader: (7)

No mate they can all be used,

The reason people tend to stick to the Ecutek is that it retains the stock ECU.

Unless you require a specific quality of another brand of management such as Launch control, anti-lag, additional injector drivers or MAF deletion etc the stock ECU is more than capable of doing to job.

Another advantage of SOME aftermarket management systems is that they can be live updated.

This means the MAP can be altered on the move and does not require you to stop the vehicle to perform a reflash of the ECU. This only saves time when mapping. A BIG advantage when making map changes often. If not then its not really relevant.

Hope that helps,

Frayz

R19KET

I'm not certain this is the case. If the mappers are going to charge the same amount for the "mapping" element, then in terms of profit, they are no better, or worse off which system they use.

One could actually argue that they are better off financially if they DON'T have to lay out for the Ecutek licenses.

The mappers need to get the best results they can, within a given price range, that's how they build a reputation, and what attracts the customers, therefore would assume they will choose the system that consistantly gives the best results ?


Mark.

Dream Weaver

Mine can be live updated, I wouldn't advise altering the fuelling on a dual carriageway though with the laptop on the passenger seat, doesn't really work

So why keep the stock ECU and piggy back the Ecutek on (I assume thats what is done), what's the advantage?

craigdmcd

iTrader: (2)

Sorry to go off subject slightly, but in your opinion (and you are perfectly entitled to it), you think Halfords Professional tools are the equivalent of Snap-On. I would beg to differ. I am a Systems Technician for Mercedes Benz, and although I own a few Halfords tools for tinkering at home, in my roll-cab at work , there is nothing but Snap-On and Mac tools. When used consistently, these tools always come off better than their lesser counter parts (trust me - when people are having problems, it's always my toolbox they come and borrow out of).
At an uneducated guess, therin possibly lies the same answer to the main question
Craig

Midlife......

iTrader: (2)

It's not the tools but the person that uses them......... it's the three R's again

The Right person
doing the Right Operation
at the Right time



OK it's a medical thing but mapping is no different IMHO.

Choose the person (mapper) and not the tools !!

Shaun

frayz

iTrader: (7)

Okay this is going off topic but,

You used the term "when used constantly". With this statement you are refering to the tools quality and more importantly its durability.

You are very right when you say this... but remember we're talking about an item of computer software here and its ability to do a job well. Its not a solid physical item that is subject to wear like a hand tool.

I used the tools as an example to show that there are other programs out there that are less expensive but just as good at doing the job.

This is a polite reply from a fellow Snap-on owner

Frayz

frayz

iTrader: (7)

If you read my previous post mate, i deliberately pointed out the difference between the programs showing that Ecutek provide the maps table locations. Its therefore a little less initial work for the mapper to use the program as opposed to other programs.

Also be aware that Ecutek is a recognised name and has been around for a while now. Therefore customers will tend to go in that direction. The mapper buys the software which entitles them to be a recognised Ecutek dealer.

Thus avoiding the situation that has become this very thread. What makes the avaerage customer want to use a program thats new and not widely known about when they can use something thats a bit older and tried and tested.

Ecutek has been around for ages, thats why customers have confidence in it.

Andy.F

Hi Frayz

Absolutely no problem with a challenge.

Your tool analogy is a good one. I would use Halfords tools for certain non critical tasks however when torqueing down my big ends or cylinder heads its the Snap-on kit that comes out.

Using openecu would be like using a torque wrench without the scale marked on it ie you need to calibrate it first, even then you are only fairly sure you know what it is actually doing. Further to that you need to recalibrate it for each different car you work on.

I can tell you that for Subaru alone, Ecutek have supplied me with in excess of 100 different rom files all fully documented. Thats over 100 different car variations, not individual maps. Within each rom there can be over 60 different 3D and 2D maps, again all fully scaled and documented.
It didn't come cheap but I accept his is what I pay for when I purchase their software, the licence fee I see as an insurance that the latest models are all available to me within weeks of their release (ie before the owners have even run them in ! ) there are people working full time on the latest developments. I expect they need paid

Thats how I see it from a starting base, where I am now however is much further down the line.
In addition to the base rom files supplied I have in excess of 500 of my own files which have covered virtually every combination of injectors/intercoolers/turbos/exhausts/maf sensors etc, thus I can initially install a map that is 95% of the way there. Then I can spend the mapping time fine tuning the final 5% rather than establishing base settings for the spec of the car or trying to work out what certain maps/values actually do.

I find it quite scary some of the questions asked on the openecu forum, there seems very little talk or knowledge of active knock control and the associated increment/decrement load calibrations for the learned values. Allowing the car to run solely on the basic knock correction is a sure way to decrease its life expectancy.
The open/closed loop fuel learning information crossover is also something that must be understood in order that the ECU doesn't adjust open loop fueling some days or weeks after initial mapping.

Everyone seems homed in on just the main boost/fuel and ignition maps, this is such a small part of the tuning process.

If I was looking for a cheaper way to tune cars (as opposed to a better way) then I would just fit a bleed valve to hike the boost, zener diode to avoid boost cut and tweek fuel pressure on a regulator, std ecu knock control will look after det wont it
Don't get me wrong, I used to tune my old car like this and got good power from it..... for more than 48hrs anyway

Bottom line is, yes this will allow you to play, at some risk, with your ecu. Just don't go paying top dollar for it !

cheers

Andy

911

What an interesting discussion after a shakey start.

As a simple customer/user I feel huge trust is placed on the Mapper and his reputation for choosing the ECU for the car and the mapping that takes place thereafter for the cars intended purpose. I wanted a solid versatile ECU less than £750 for my simple hill climb Sti with a good reputation (Apexi) and a Mapper with the same spec sheet!

My car was mapped on a dual carriageway both times it has been done (12 months apart) and (in my opinion) runs very very well. No rolling roads used, just real world running, and no hero drives at a zillion mph. You mostly know who did mine

Finally, over the 35 years I've spent with cars the times I've needed a specialist (Suspension/transmission/Mapping only) I have learnt to find a good guy with the right tools and stick with him/them building a relationship and understanding that is valuable in the work you get done.

This is all worth the $$$.

Back to the techie stuff please.
Graham.

Mocom Racing

iTrader: (2)

This is no longer the case with access to over 90 ROM images as you say for car configuration, not individual maps, although if we step back and look at what this means in the real world - just how many different car/ecu variations are their in our locality?

There's no arguing with this but it's just a matter of time before those using alternative applications gain this exposure and it's in their own interests to undertake the correct testing and development work (with vehicle mods not the software) to achieve the same.

This can be said of the public EcuTek forums, if only we knew what was posted in the restricted area

wouldn't it

Not quite everyone , perhaps the number of questions on the forum give this impression but these are mostly individual users with no commercial interest - they've discovered an app that gives them the possibility of tuning their own car, agreed it's very risky but the tools are there and if they choose to use them............