IWatkins

Cem,

When you sign up to be a passenger at most track days (and handing over your tenner etc.) you have to sign a form which basically says "I won't sue you if I get injured". However, I guess it depends on who the word "you" means.

I think "you" in most cases will mean the circuit owners.

So, yes, I would say that if you were really worried about something happening, then get passenger to sign a disclaimer saying they won't sue you if you injure them.

Personally, I would have thought it was quite obvious to anyone getting into a car at a track day that they are at risk of serious injury or death at the hands of someone they may or may not know very well. But when it comes to courts and court cases etc. usually stupid things happen.

However, it would be a sad day if it turns out that drivers are so worried about being sued that they do not take out passengers. Half the fun of doing track days is to have someone in the car with you.

There is another argument that came up recently. You go along to watch at a track day/race day. You don't pay to get in, you don't sign a disclaimer etc. You stay standing behind the correct safety fences. A car spins off the track, hits the wall/barrier etc. and debris hits you and injures you. Do you have the right to sue the circuit ? Maybe. How about suing the motor club that organised the event ? Maybe. How about suing the driver ? Maybe.

So you could in theory be trashing around track on a track day, overcook it, spin off and injure a spectator. They then sue you, the motor club and probably the circuit too.

Safest thing to do is stay home, in bed, with a good book, but watch for paper cuts, as they can smart some

Cheers

Ian

[Edited by IWatkins - 11/2/2001 11:54:11 AM]

Markus

Cem has a point here. I'm coming from the passenger side, as I've not taken the car on track yet, but when I turned up at brands last year (and probably the same this year) i did blag a few passenger laps, and to be honest, I never thought about what would happen if there was an off.

As stated, I had to sign a waiver, but think this was simply to say that i'd not sue BHLG if I had an accident.

What's SIDC's viewpoint on all of this, well, on SIDC arranged trackdays that is, they can't comment on other ones?

** edit **
Just posted on members section of SIDC BBS about this, asking what SIDC's thoughs are, eg; how about SIDC handing out a waiver to anyone signing up passenger laps that if they go out in an SIDC members car (and all owners dricing @ SIDC trackday will, nay, *have* to be SIDC members) as a passenger, then the passenger waives all rights to sue the driver, or words to this effect which mean the driver can't be sue due to injury, etc..


[Edited by Markus - 11/2/2001 1:39:59 PM]

Blow Dog

Thought I'd run this past you all.

Track days are a lot of fun, but not only for drivers. You often find a lot of people turning up to either spectate or try to blag a ride from the drivers on track, which I have happily complied with in the past, taking upto 20 people out in a single day.

However, I have recently been made aware of a very important issue with taking passengers out on track with regards to liability. Have you all considered the implications of having a passenger in your car if (god forbid) you were to have an accident? Depending on who you take out (quite often you don't even know their first name), there is a very high possibility of being sued for any injuries that may occur. And if this were to happen, does youre insurance company know you have your car on track (an other issue which, in my opnion, is fataly flawed is the insurance system on track days - no onus on drivers to responsibily insure their cars)?

For this reason, I have decided not to take out passengers anymore, the thought doesn't bear thinking about. Not only am I protecting myself from liability, but also the thought of bringing someone else to harm. I hope nobody thinks I am being a wet blanket, I shall be taking out close friends but I will draw the line there.

What do you all think about this? Should we all start bringing disclaimers and imdemnity forms with us?

Cem

Adam M

I would tend to agree with you cem.
IOn my one and only track day I gave no thought to such implications.

Thankfully no harm was done, but I had taken out people.

Luckily danny fisher and pat are not worth much so I cant imagine them being legally allowed to sue me. I would settle out of court anyway and give them the £5 they are worth.

sorry, serious issue. totally understand,a nd think other would too.

You can always get people to sign a disclaimer when entering you car.

seejay555

Cem,
Suspect the passenger would be "contributorily negligent" (ecxuse the legal parlance) by knowing the risks involved and still getting in the car. Most, if not all, standard policies will not cover track days but if you get a track day extension it may well cover injury to passengers in any event - just a thought.

chiark

Goodness only knows about the legalities of this Cem, and it could be a quagmire if something nasty does happen. Especially if families of the injured become involved and bay for "revenge"

I suggest someone with a sound legal understanding takes a look at this issue, but if I was a driver I'd make people sign indemnity forms no matter how well I knew 'em.

It could be something, it could be nothing, but any way it needs carefully looking to make sure that if there is a problem it's known about before the unthinkable does happen.

BTW, did you realise that most life assurance policies are null and void when participating in motor sport unless you specifically have cover for such activities?

This is a dry subject, but it needs looking at, preferably by someone with the right skills, not just people theorising and conjecturing (like I am doing here )

Type R

It is a real shame the thought of somebody trying to sue you, when you possibly offered them a seat in a dream car for 10 minutes or so leads to this, but unfortunatly this is the world we live in, and given half an opportunity people may well sue. Sad but true.

Does it not say something to the affect on the indemity form, they are their at their own risk, blah, blah, im never one for the small print.

I have never thought about it before, but its made me think. I have taken many people round, mainly people off scoobynet thou, which in all cases have been top people.

I generally only give passenger laps to people i have met, or friends of people i know.

Bit of a complex issue this one, because the blame would be down to the driver 99.9% of the time.

Danny Fisher

When people get in my car on track, they are told that its at their own risk. I am such a poor driver who knows whats going to happen!

Have to agree with Cem on this, maybe they should sign disclaimers.

Dan

Hanslow

Cem, does that mean I can't blag a ride in the Skyline after I give you your CDs

Wot about round the car park

I'll be happy to sign indemnity forms...I'm worth peanuts anyway

Fair point though

DavidLewis

A Good Point and one that all should consider.

Like Cem, I'm always happy to take passengers. I must admit, I've always been FULLY covered on every trackday for my own liability, let alone a passengers liabilty.

I've just been on the phone to Greenlight (my current insurers) just to ensure that a third party passenger is covered. The answer surprised me.

The easy bit is that as I have arranged trackday cover, there is no issue, I'm fully covered and so are any front seat passengers. The surprising bit (as explained to me) is that your insurance company cannot refuse to cover your third party passenger liability, even if your passenger is injured of killed (god forbid) and you have been explicitly told you cannot drive your car on the track by your insurance co.

The catch is (yes, there is always a catch) that your insurance company will attempt to get their money back.

Maybe Tom can comment here.

Mungo

Chiark - do track days constitute "motor sport"? I certainly hope not. No racing is being done, no times are being taken. A track is, after all, just a private road. What if you had an off while driving on a privately-owned disused airfield? Or even blasting up the drive of any wealthy friends!

Crapaud62

Sorry but a disclaimer would not stop you being sued.

Most disclaimers are just an attempt to stop people suing.

It is not possible to avoid liability for injury caused by neglgence. Therefore even if you got people to sign a disclaimer and then the 'red mist' came down and you drove 'negligently' and that negligence caused injury then you COULD be sued.

Have to agree with Blowdog on this one. Even friends could sue you if it got nasty ?

seejay555

I'm no expert but just started to look at this and wondered whether I would be covered. I decided that my policy wouldn't cover track days as it excludes "..racing, pacemaking, speed testing, competitions, trials or rallies.." All policies will have similar wording. With £30k of car on the track wouldn't you prefer to be sure you had cover?!! I would.

chiark

Mungo,

I've just spoken to Legal and General Life Assurance department, and as long as it's a one-off, there's no problems.

If it is a regular hobby (one in which you intend to participate more than once), you will need to inform your life assurance company in writing of this as it is classed as a dangerous hobby.

They may or may not affect or or even cancel your life assurance as a result of this - the advisor could not say which

Scary, but that is from the horse's mouth of Legal and General Life Assurance Customer Services without any of my interpretation - it's pure fact.

Everyone's policies will be different, but it may be worth checking them for peace of mind.

Gary Foster

Seejay555

A lot of us get specialist insurance cover for this on top of normal on-road insurance. Cost is around £130 to cover 15K (or was last year) for the day. I use Egger Lawson and have been very happy (and I have heard they have paid out in full on at least two occasions now, theres no catch you really are covered)

Gary

RonaldoH

Get a years travel insurance with Tescos, tell em you like holidays in the UK

Job Done

BT52b

I've had some quotes from Egger Lawson and the cover seems to be for parts or repair to parts, but not for the dismantling and assembly (i.e. labour) or engines or transmission. Seems a bit pointless in that case!

What happens if there are two cars involved, do the normal 3rd party rules apply? In which case who decides blame? It's not straightforward like on roads where there is a wrong and right side of the road. Racing drivers can never agree so how would this work?

beatle

I think this is a sad reflection of the way things are heading , the American "compensation culture " is now starting to take a hold .
In New York now the compensation culture is such that people who get blind drunk in bars and then drive home and cause accidents are turning round and suing the bars for serving them all the alcohol...!!!. it seems that nobody wants to take responsibilty for their own actions anymore

Neil Smalley

I think this is maybe an over-reaction. I have to sign an idemnity form before I go out on passenger laps so in my mind it's settled. Even if the form did'nt cover the individual driver, and just the track it could still be argued that since I'd signed a form for the track purposes, AND asked for a passenger ride I
1. Waived my rights not to sue the track. Since the cars are on the track, there would be a case that by implication the drivers were covered.
2. Had enough confidence in the driver of the car to ask for a ride.
3. Therefore by asking AND by signing a form I had given my consent and waived any rights I might have.

Yes it may need to go to court, but I suspect that if the passenger tried it on, they would lose.

Whatever next? Passengers suing Stef for emotional distress after going out for a ride with him

In anycase if I got killed while on a passenger lap I would'nt dream of sueing.

chiark

Neil, it may be an over-reaction, but how would you feel if you were the driver in question being sued by someone for megabucks? Would you want to be the test case?

hence it's probably best to have this discussion now...

Or did I misunderstand the point of your post?

Neil Smalley

I think I probably did'nt put it down the right way.

What i'm basically saying, is that IMHO anyone trying it on by suing a driver would lose and face a hefty legal bill.

Where's a lawyer when we need them?

Andy Tang

iTrader: (3)

I'm probably not the best person to comment, as I've never driven on track and have only had one passenger ride!

I picked the driver as someone I trusted (and someone who was free!!) so some of the responsibility is on the passenger as well. (Thanks to David Lewis for taking round Donnington in Feb!!)

I will be up at Donnington on Saturday, again just to spectate and ponce rides, but I have a couple set up with people I know and trust! So please don't take offense if I don't ask for a ride in your car! It's probably because I don't know you or your driving style!

Obviously I don't know what's going to happen out there, but I won't be suing someone if all goes wrong!

It's a shame we have to think like this!

Andy

Hoppy

Cem has a good point. Something nasty WILL happen sooner or later.

And the only way of avoiding a law suit for mega bucks is not to take someone out in the first place. A great shame all round. A disclaimer would probably be useless if it got really heavy, ie "I only signed a disclaimer on the understanding you were going to drive sensibly, if you told me you were going to drive like a prat (and by crashing, by definition you DID drive like a prat) I wouldn't have got in." Not an unreasonable response, is it?

I don't bother with insurance because £15k of damage is not the problem (although it would put me in serious debt for a few years). I'm worried about 1) hurting someone, 2) a massive law suit, 3) me (because if I can't work presumably my 'estate' may be at risk, 4) a bent car.

But it's also possible to take a few relatively simple precautions to minimise damage in the event of a crash, thus avoiding most of the aforementioned grief.

Precautions I take, in addition to a good helmet of course, are race harnesses and roll cage (removable) and on track I try hard to stay out of other cars' way as much as possible, to avoid getting tangled up in their mishaps. Not easy when passing of course, but I still try.

At the recent SIDC AGM track cover and insurance-friendly definitions of what a track day is ("performance training" etc) were discussed. The SIDC should progress this urgently, before the inevitable happens. (Sorry to be gloomy.) I also recall Pete Croney saying, some months ago, that many people believed that roll-cages would become compulsory in the future.

Richard.

None Prouder

Ok here goes. I'm a lawyer, although personal injury isn't my field. Broadly, this is the position (usual caveats, don't sue me, I'm not advising you etc.)

1. Signing the standard circuit/organiser waiver will make no difference whatsoever to the chances of a claim from an injured passenger. Does it show some acceptance of risk by the passenger? No more than getting in the car does.

2. Most waiver forms aren't worth the paper they are written on anyway. You simply cannot exclude liability for death or personal injury caused by negligence.

3. Remember, it doesn't matter how nice, understanding , close the passenger is to you. If he/she is dead, that's a bit irrelevant. Their husband/wife/children/life insurers(potentially relevant) may not give a t0ss about that and will sue you anyway.

4. Is it contributory negligence of the passenger? Probably not. He/she is getting in the car in the expectation that you will drive on track in an appropriate manner (that pretty much rules out you killing them). If they panic and grab the wheel causing a crash, that is contributory negligence.

5. But my brakes failed/steering broke/throttle stuck etc, it wasn't my fault. Nice try, but not good enough. you may be able to lay off some blame/liability if a track prep place has caused it, but tough to prove. You should make sure your car is fit for the track.

6. This one's interesting - the idiot in front/behind drove like a moron and caused the crash it's his/her fault. Quite possibly could lay off the risk there - hence the very good point someone raised about 3rd party liability - this IMHO is the biggest issue re track days.

Here endeth the lesson. Apologies for length but I hope some may find it useful. Most things that give you a buzz involve some risk, isn't that the point? Just go into it with your eyes open, don't drive up someone's **** and be sensible.

None Prouder

Neil Smalley

Thanks NP.

Looks like the end of passenger laps at any trackdays then
Seems as though the SIDC needs to get the indemnity form form sorted out.

Neil Smalley

BTW NP,

You could'nt clarify the libel laws and internet BBS's while your at it could you?

Blow Dog

None Prouder,

Many thanks for clearing that up. Fantastic to know we have someone here to provide assistance on topics such as this.

Looks like we've opened up a can of worms here

Cem

None Prouder

Hi Neil

I was afraid you were going to ask that. A bit more of a black art that one. I've so far studiously avoided getting involved in that debate. However, one thing is clear, if a post is potentially libellous the disclaimer re opinions etc isn't a great defence, the post needs to be removed.

Power is nothing without control.

None Prouder

matt d

Good thread Blow Dog.

As mentioned, disclaimers aren't worth the paper they're written on. There's a liability for negligence in many areas e.g. having guests in your home (if you leave the gas on and it kills them then you are liable, for example), I don't see why track days would be any different. How do you know what is negligent? I'm not sure, and suspect it is the sort of thing that would be settled on a test case, which would then set a precedent. A bit worrying really.

I assume the notional "reasonable man" would be taken to have accepted normal risks associated with being on a track day (including the possibility of mechanical failure etc). But if you try to outbrake someone aggressively or otherwise get red mist and cause an accident, I think you could easily be liable (since track days are not motorsport, and racing etc is prohibited). A difficult case is what if you deliberately drift the car then lose control and hit someone?

I don't think I'll be taking any passengers in the future, and I'll make sure no one is near before doing a deliberate slide!

scud8

iTrader: (1)

Chiark

Life insurance/assurance policies will cover motor sports, but it depends on the circumstances.

I took up special stage rallying a few years ago, and managed to get written confirmation that a couple of life policies I had taken out several years earlier would cover me if I died while driving competitively (the wife wouldn't let me drive unless she had these pieces of paper in her hand!). I had to convince them that I had no intention of becoming a rally driver when I first took out the policies, but otherwise it was not a problem.

Mike