Deletion of ECU thread Concerning BRD
30 October 2001, 03:11 PM
#1
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In the interests of the Scoobynet Community (as regards to the status of Scoobynet), the above thread has been deleted.
Several legally challenged statements had been made, and it is not in the interest of the community or Scoobynet to continue.
Experiences GOOD or BAD, need to be shared, but this needs to be in a constructive manner. I don't believe that a "Witch Hunt", is in the best interests of the YOUR community.....especially when the future of YOUR community, could be at stake.
Regards,
Shaun.
Several legally challenged statements had been made, and it is not in the interest of the community or Scoobynet to continue.
Experiences GOOD or BAD, need to be shared, but this needs to be in a constructive manner. I don't believe that a "Witch Hunt", is in the best interests of the YOUR community.....especially when the future of YOUR community, could be at stake.
Regards,
Shaun.
30 October 2001, 03:33 PM
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Shaun
With full respect I disagree. I have a basic understanding of law and did not see anything in that thread that was in anyway could be seen as libel. It was opinion. Libel is not people with a common interest expressing opinion over good service vs bad service.
I quote from a recognised source.
"Nevertheless, an expression of opinion is not generally actionable so long as it does not imply that there are undisclosed defamatory facts underlying the opinion. Ask yourself whether the reader would likely conclude that the author must know something (in order to hold the opinion) the reader doesn't know, and that "something," were it printed explicitly, would likely be defamatory."
In this case there were no indications of undisclosed defamatory facts as people were expressing points of view over a subjective measure of customer care skills. i.e. pure opinion.
Are we a board that can share all experiences or just good ones?
G
With full respect I disagree. I have a basic understanding of law and did not see anything in that thread that was in anyway could be seen as libel. It was opinion. Libel is not people with a common interest expressing opinion over good service vs bad service.
I quote from a recognised source.
"Nevertheless, an expression of opinion is not generally actionable so long as it does not imply that there are undisclosed defamatory facts underlying the opinion. Ask yourself whether the reader would likely conclude that the author must know something (in order to hold the opinion) the reader doesn't know, and that "something," were it printed explicitly, would likely be defamatory."
In this case there were no indications of undisclosed defamatory facts as people were expressing points of view over a subjective measure of customer care skills. i.e. pure opinion.
Are we a board that can share all experiences or just good ones?
G
30 October 2001, 03:43 PM
#4
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"Libel is not people with a common interest expressing opinion over good service vs bad service. "
Absolutley correct, but a deffamation of a person's character or company's image is.....especially when direct quotes are being made.
Can I just emphasise that this decision was only made, because of any possible impact it could have on the community and Scoobynet. And again........experiences GOOD or BAD need to be told, but they should be in a constructive manner.
Regards,
Shaun.
Absolutley correct, but a deffamation of a person's character or company's image is.....especially when direct quotes are being made.
Can I just emphasise that this decision was only made, because of any possible impact it could have on the community and Scoobynet. And again........experiences GOOD or BAD need to be told, but they should be in a constructive manner.
Regards,
Shaun.
30 October 2001, 03:43 PM
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Gaz, its very refreshing to see someone pluck some useful quote out. I know nothing about law relating to libel and slander, so thankyou for that excerpt.
perhaps it would be a good idea for Simon to provide all the moderators with this kind of info, that way there would be no grey area as regards to legality of posts.
perhaps it would be a good idea for Simon to provide all the moderators with this kind of info, that way there would be no grey area as regards to legality of posts.
30 October 2001, 03:43 PM
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I also disagree. There were people who had obviously had bad customer experiences with BRD, and those who had had good ones. I think this is useful information for anyone in the future who may search the archives. If the customer experience is poor, it's up to BRD to improve it.
I think the mollycoddling of suppliers on this BBS in the name of legal issues is diluting its usefulness.
There are other threads around (do a search) that slate companies like Scoobymania, Scoobysport, etc. but Mike and Pete take the rough with the smooth, take time out to explain the problems, etc. No supplier's perfect.
I think the mollycoddling of suppliers on this BBS in the name of legal issues is diluting its usefulness.
There are other threads around (do a search) that slate companies like Scoobymania, Scoobysport, etc. but Mike and Pete take the rough with the smooth, take time out to explain the problems, etc. No supplier's perfect.
30 October 2001, 03:54 PM
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Shaun
I agree with your last post. You did the right thing for scoobynet, which I think is just brilliant btw. You have a hard job of it and protecting us from ourselves is a tricky one
We do need to be able to express opinion though. I have tried to rack my brains over the posts made and try to remember where it moved from being constructive. Maybe you can e-mail me if possible.
Long term bbs's rely on those who post and expressing opinion is always going to be stock of those posts. Can we have some rules please? So avoiding us all losing access to useful first hand reports from others who can save us wasting our time and money with bad suppliers.
G
I agree with your last post. You did the right thing for scoobynet, which I think is just brilliant btw. You have a hard job of it and protecting us from ourselves is a tricky one
We do need to be able to express opinion though. I have tried to rack my brains over the posts made and try to remember where it moved from being constructive. Maybe you can e-mail me if possible.
Long term bbs's rely on those who post and expressing opinion is always going to be stock of those posts. Can we have some rules please? So avoiding us all losing access to useful first hand reports from others who can save us wasting our time and money with bad suppliers.
G
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30 October 2001, 04:32 PM
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I don't think it should have been deleted either. There is a tremendous amount of positive press for some of the Scooby suppliers and very few folks are brave enough/honest enough on here to say "I've just shelled out £1,500 on wheels/exhaust/PPP/suspension etc, and it's crap. Or that the service from a supplier was poor. In conversation, many are more open.
Given the amount of money some of us have spent/are spending, honest objective opinions are welcome. I agree they should be stopped if they get too personal, defamitory or are exagerated.
Most threads of this nature do get positive "I wouldn't go anywhere else" type endorsements too. Moderators should alert the Co.'s to big "controvertial" threads like this and offer them opportunity to respond and put their side of the story. Most good co.s welcome customer feedback, good and bad, to help them continuously improve.
Given that I was planning to buy a Link shortly, I was very interested in the +ve & -ve comments on this thread and was looking forward to Bob's response which we may not see now. Shame.
edited as someone had got their post in before me and the start of mine read wrong.
[Edited by DT - 10/30/2001 4:36:04 PM]
Given the amount of money some of us have spent/are spending, honest objective opinions are welcome. I agree they should be stopped if they get too personal, defamitory or are exagerated.
Most threads of this nature do get positive "I wouldn't go anywhere else" type endorsements too. Moderators should alert the Co.'s to big "controvertial" threads like this and offer them opportunity to respond and put their side of the story. Most good co.s welcome customer feedback, good and bad, to help them continuously improve.
Given that I was planning to buy a Link shortly, I was very interested in the +ve & -ve comments on this thread and was looking forward to Bob's response which we may not see now. Shame.
edited as someone had got their post in before me and the start of mine read wrong.
[Edited by DT - 10/30/2001 4:36:04 PM]
30 October 2001, 04:55 PM
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That one individual being 50% of a well-respected company...
Anyway, as I recall it, it started off with someone saying they had phoned BRD and received poor customer relations. Much like the "Scoobymania credit card charges" thread (which Mike explained entirely properly), the "I was shafted by a bloke from TN at a track day" thread (which Mark took very seriously and said he would sort out), "Don't buy clear indicators from Scoobysport" (Pete said there were supply problems and he'd moved some of the telesales staff around), etc. None of these incidents have tarnished my opinion of any of the companies involved, and I have used all three of them.
My ten-penneth worth
[Edited by carl - 10/30/2001 5:02:32 PM]
Anyway, as I recall it, it started off with someone saying they had phoned BRD and received poor customer relations. Much like the "Scoobymania credit card charges" thread (which Mike explained entirely properly), the "I was shafted by a bloke from TN at a track day" thread (which Mark took very seriously and said he would sort out), "Don't buy clear indicators from Scoobysport" (Pete said there were supply problems and he'd moved some of the telesales staff around), etc. None of these incidents have tarnished my opinion of any of the companies involved, and I have used all three of them.
My ten-penneth worth
[Edited by carl - 10/30/2001 5:02:32 PM]
30 October 2001, 05:00 PM
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Chuck,
The fact that a "*****" in the BRD armoury was revealed was useful to me. Might not stop me dealing with them but this sort of info allows you to make an informed choice. Should be useful to them, as a fair few folks commented on their customer service. If they are smart they'll do something about it.
The fact that a "*****" in the BRD armoury was revealed was useful to me. Might not stop me dealing with them but this sort of info allows you to make an informed choice. Should be useful to them, as a fair few folks commented on their customer service. If they are smart they'll do something about it.
30 October 2001, 05:07 PM
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You have to take as you find.If you get good service(like I did from TSL,there's another mention for you Trouser! 
)then you tell everybody and vice versa. If somebody rips you off,is unhelpful or selling shoddy goods then we all need warning, respectable companies should take any criticism on the chin and do something about it. They love the praise and should welcome the criticism the same way.
Just my humble opinion.
Jason
)then you tell everybody and vice versa. If somebody rips you off,is unhelpful or selling shoddy goods then we all need warning, respectable companies should take any criticism on the chin and do something about it. They love the praise and should welcome the criticism the same way.Just my humble opinion.
Jason
30 October 2001, 05:16 PM
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There is a danger that this thread could do more damage (to BRD) than the original thread (which I have to admit to not seeing). If someone reads this thread, they may get it into their head not to deal with BRD without knowing what has happened. Maybe someone should post (just) the original problem so that BRD has a chance to see what was said about them as respond as appropriate?
30 October 2001, 05:24 PM
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Some individuals posted to the effect that they didn't get on personally with Branko. Some posted that they did. Personality matches/clashes are inevitable. The quality of the job BRD do was never in question.
Chuck
Chuck
30 October 2001, 05:28 PM
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Fair point chuckster, but 'quality of work' is not everything. NTL's cable modem service is an excellent product for 20 quid a month, but when it goes wrong you find their customer service sucks. For me that isn't a problem, but for others it has soured their experience and they have terminated their contracts. If someone was to ask me about NTL's cable modem service I would tell them to get it, but watch out because their customer service is poor. Then they can make an informed decision.
30 October 2001, 05:32 PM
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Chuckster>>True, but Branko is (usually) the one that the customers first gets in contact with. When he and I had a disagreement, I and BRD had a disagreement. Simple as that.´
It'd be another ballgame if I'd been dealing with Branko in private at the time.
I've been buried in work today, so I haven't been able to read the posts after no 33-summat - and I'm more than disappointed over the deletion of it.
/J
It'd be another ballgame if I'd been dealing with Branko in private at the time.
I've been buried in work today, so I haven't been able to read the posts after no 33-summat - and I'm more than disappointed over the deletion of it.
/J
30 October 2001, 05:43 PM
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Without wanting to get into the debate about whether the thread should have been deleted or not, I think that having information about the people that you have to deal with is pretty relevant.
For example, there is a well known tuning company near me that feature in a lot of magazines etc and undoubtedly produce good products. However, I have never bought a single thing from them because of the very fact that the person I dealt with at company X had - to me - an extremely bad attitude.
Therefore if someone else had a similar experience with another - lets say company Y - then I personally feel that I would like to know about it. Or if they had a similar experience to myself with company X, then I'd want to hear about that too. That way I know that I'm not alone in being on the receiving end of bad service
And I'd also like to hear what company X had to say about it - at least we would have two sides to the story then?
Just my tuppenceworth
For example, there is a well known tuning company near me that feature in a lot of magazines etc and undoubtedly produce good products. However, I have never bought a single thing from them because of the very fact that the person I dealt with at company X had - to me - an extremely bad attitude.
Therefore if someone else had a similar experience with another - lets say company Y - then I personally feel that I would like to know about it. Or if they had a similar experience to myself with company X, then I'd want to hear about that too. That way I know that I'm not alone in being on the receiving end of bad service
And I'd also like to hear what company X had to say about it - at least we would have two sides to the story then?
Just my tuppenceworth
30 October 2001, 06:26 PM
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I am very dissappointed that this thread has been deleted, and I question the actions/impartiality of those moderating this BBS
I was respondant in the initial postings of this thread and logged on this evening with the express view of reading any further posts on this thread.....clearly there were plenty of people with things to say on the matter because I have about 25 'thread activity' emails in my inbox.
However.....IF...what was contained in the thread was clearly a threat to the continuation of this bbs...I understand. It is unlikely though that a company that no doubt sources a large % of its business from this bbs (and that specialises in catering for the Impreza) would wish to pursue action that might result in the closure of said bbs (not to mention subsequently putting offside a large number of Subaru enthusiasts).
If it was my business, firstly I would be dissappointed that there was negative feedback on my company. But once the thread was started....I can't undo the negative feedback can I? I have to look forward..... I would much prefer the opportunity to publically defend myself and attempt to resolve/diffuse the situation by openly discussing it with my customer base. As mentioned earlier this was the action taken by companies such as Scoobymania and Scoobysport in the past.....often the end result is that the whole incident ends up a vote winner for the company originally n the firing line.
For example a company is getting flak about a certain issue in a thread on a bbs, an indifferent reader of the thread might initially read it and think 'b@stards, not using them'....but as they read on and see the responses by the accused company, they think 'Looks like they want to remedy the problem, they do care about customers after they leave the shop etc etc, I might use them next time'.........
BRD could easily have used this thread as a window to understand customer needs/concerns and to defend their stance where necessary. With the thread deleted....many will draw conclusions with an absence of the full facts...I have only read half the thread, but it's gone now and all that remains is this thread talking about libel etc etc and you could not blame someone for thinking no smoke without fire, could you????
I wanted to use BRD, but not sure now...and if nobody can post about their experiences, good & 'BAD'....how can I make an informed decision
I was respondant in the initial postings of this thread and logged on this evening with the express view of reading any further posts on this thread.....clearly there were plenty of people with things to say on the matter because I have about 25 'thread activity' emails in my inbox.
However.....IF...what was contained in the thread was clearly a threat to the continuation of this bbs...I understand. It is unlikely though that a company that no doubt sources a large % of its business from this bbs (and that specialises in catering for the Impreza) would wish to pursue action that might result in the closure of said bbs (not to mention subsequently putting offside a large number of Subaru enthusiasts).
If it was my business, firstly I would be dissappointed that there was negative feedback on my company. But once the thread was started....I can't undo the negative feedback can I? I have to look forward..... I would much prefer the opportunity to publically defend myself and attempt to resolve/diffuse the situation by openly discussing it with my customer base. As mentioned earlier this was the action taken by companies such as Scoobymania and Scoobysport in the past.....often the end result is that the whole incident ends up a vote winner for the company originally n the firing line.
For example a company is getting flak about a certain issue in a thread on a bbs, an indifferent reader of the thread might initially read it and think 'b@stards, not using them'....but as they read on and see the responses by the accused company, they think 'Looks like they want to remedy the problem, they do care about customers after they leave the shop etc etc, I might use them next time'.........
BRD could easily have used this thread as a window to understand customer needs/concerns and to defend their stance where necessary. With the thread deleted....many will draw conclusions with an absence of the full facts...I have only read half the thread, but it's gone now and all that remains is this thread talking about libel etc etc and you could not blame someone for thinking no smoke without fire, could you????
I wanted to use BRD, but not sure now...and if nobody can post about their experiences, good & 'BAD'....how can I make an informed decision
30 October 2001, 06:30 PM
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Most suppliers (including BRD I would think) don't mind constructive criticism especially in light of their top-notch customer support (in my experience anyhow - along with seemingly the VAST majority I might add!) but some of the posts were blatant personal attacks and others were people chiming in from newly-opened usernames.... 
FWIW, I think Shaun did the right thing.
Thanks
Gavin
[Edited for keyboard not understanding what I meant! ]
[Edited by GavinP - 10/30/2001 6:33:57 PM]
FWIW, I think Shaun did the right thing.
Thanks
Gavin
[Edited for keyboard not understanding what I meant!
][Edited by GavinP - 10/30/2001 6:33:57 PM]
30 October 2001, 06:37 PM
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Difficult one this.
In all I agree it should have been deleted, but I hope that the negative issues are dealt with swiftly by the company involved. For one that doesn't listen to criticism might as well forget a lot of business as bad press sticks more than good.
Yes people should have their say, I would want to know if a company I was going to use had their failings rather than going in with a rosy picture painted and coming out bitterly disappointed when or if something goes wrong.
Maybe in future if someone wishes to have an opinion on a company - a post is put up by the inquiring person along with a contact email address so that people can freely voice their opinion without possibly putting SN at risk by posting comments that are very damaging.
As we all know, there are some hot headed people out there who don't mind at all what they say even if it does do some serious damage........
Just my 2 pence.
Michelle.
In all I agree it should have been deleted, but I hope that the negative issues are dealt with swiftly by the company involved. For one that doesn't listen to criticism might as well forget a lot of business as bad press sticks more than good.
Yes people should have their say, I would want to know if a company I was going to use had their failings rather than going in with a rosy picture painted and coming out bitterly disappointed when or if something goes wrong.
Maybe in future if someone wishes to have an opinion on a company - a post is put up by the inquiring person along with a contact email address so that people can freely voice their opinion without possibly putting SN at risk by posting comments that are very damaging.
As we all know, there are some hot headed people out there who don't mind at all what they say even if it does do some serious damage........
Just my 2 pence.
Michelle.
30 October 2001, 06:38 PM
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Didn't see how far this thread got before it was moderated - I hope the following is acceptable to the moderator
I got a rapid and detailed quotation from BRD when I asked for a quote
I had some further questions regarding having KnockLink and LambaLink boxes in the cabin, which I didn't want, and I also wanted to know if the Link could adapt the map based on feedback from sensors, and had no direct response
Answer to my questions came in the form of searching archives of BRD posting on this BBS and 22b.com - so the everyone is getting the benefit of considerable expertise for nothing, which is not typical of fee based experts
But there was no sale for BRD ...
I got a rapid and detailed quotation from BRD when I asked for a quote
I had some further questions regarding having KnockLink and LambaLink boxes in the cabin, which I didn't want, and I also wanted to know if the Link could adapt the map based on feedback from sensors, and had no direct response
Answer to my questions came in the form of searching archives of BRD posting on this BBS and 22b.com - so the everyone is getting the benefit of considerable expertise for nothing, which is not typical of fee based experts
But there was no sale for BRD ...
30 October 2001, 06:38 PM
#25
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I can't keep repeating what I have already said, but there is absolutley NOTHING wrong with posting GOOD/BAD experiences on this BBS. We ALL want to know about them. But when those posts are led to personnal attacks on companys or individuals, surely people can understand (if only for any possible legal reasons) why it was deleted.
Regards,
Shaun.
there is absolutley NOTHING wrong with posting GOOD/BAD experiences on this BBS. We ALL want to know about them. But when those posts are led to personnal attacks on companys or individuals, surely people can understand (if only for any possible legal reasons) why it was deleted.Regards,
Shaun.
30 October 2001, 07:22 PM
#26
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I'm probably wrong cos I don't really read/post on this board anymore (for various reasons) but... I seem to remember the said individual from BRD being an active poster on this and the old scoobynet (and 22b.com). I can't help reading this and thinking that from the numerous posts of his that I've read in the past he'd be the sort of person now arguing adamantly for the thread to have been left alone 'cos people have a right to know good and bad sides etc.... Ho hum, how times change
This doesn't effect me either way cos I have no intention of buying a link or anything else from BRD but this kind of thread draws attention to the reason why the other was deleted. Not necessarily in a good way either cos people like me with no experience/axe or anything else to do with it suddenly have an opinion on it and drag it out!
Anyway, just wanted to kill a few minutes... which I achieved.
This doesn't effect me either way cos I have no intention of buying a link or anything else from BRD but this kind of thread draws attention to the reason why the other was deleted. Not necessarily in a good way either cos people like me with no experience/axe or anything else to do with it suddenly have an opinion on it and drag it out!
Anyway, just wanted to kill a few minutes... which I achieved.
30 October 2001, 07:23 PM
#27
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shaun
why couldnt the offensive comments be just edited?
seems all too often threads are deleted when companys are criticised. remove the insults, but at least let the opinions remain.
why couldnt the offensive comments be just edited?
seems all too often threads are deleted when companys are criticised. remove the insults, but at least let the opinions remain.
30 October 2001, 07:32 PM
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Shaun,
Perhaps you should have edited the comments you thought were out of order and mailed those people to tell them why. Heavy handed I know but better than deleting the thread completely. That way, people could continue the (IMHO) important debate and hopefully, Bob/Branko could have defended themselves.
Not having dealt with them personally, I can't comment but, I have spoken to a large number of people who have and who did not have good things to say. If I didn't know these people, I would only be able to rely on the BBS, and with the thread deleted, I can't do that either.
Just my thoughts.
Matt
Perhaps you should have edited the comments you thought were out of order and mailed those people to tell them why. Heavy handed I know but better than deleting the thread completely. That way, people could continue the (IMHO) important debate and hopefully, Bob/Branko could have defended themselves.
Not having dealt with them personally, I can't comment but, I have spoken to a large number of people who have and who did not have good things to say. If I didn't know these people, I would only be able to rely on the BBS, and with the thread deleted, I can't do that either.
Just my thoughts.
Matt
30 October 2001, 07:35 PM
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... speaking as a supplier, I feel that the BBS serves a useful purpose in focusing ones customer service. It IS lovely to get positive feedback from subscribers.. it helps us in every area. From product development to staff motivation.
It's therefore only fair to have the sharpening thought that poor service or product development on our part would lead to adverse comment. As we have the facility to explain and reason with those who may be upset or annoyed and to state our case in a public forum, I feel it pretty much cuts both ways in a just and even measure.
However... can people stop going on that I NEVER make the tea please???!!!
Trouser
TSL