reano

iTrader: (2)

I'm an owner of a 53 plate sti with ppp and I'm going for the wrc350 package. In another thread I have heard people saying if you go with anything other than ppp you invalidate your warranty is that actually true?

Please facts and figures. Legally the manufacturer would have to prove the change had a detrimental effect on the car right? Anyway lets give some reasoned arguments, law cases, newspaper clips, whatever.

BrynO

Is your point that you want some reassurance that you can have this mod done without effecting your warranty?

I think a good place to start would be to read the t's & c's of your warranty contract, would have thought it pretty clear on what would invalidate it...

Gutmann pug

I think you might be able to argue that a seat belt not working has not been affected by your engine mods but anything else and your onto a hiding from nothing me thinks......

Ask your supplying dealer what he thinks.

Gary

HOWY

unless its a subaru approved/supplied product I suspect the answer will be a definate YES

Gutmann pug

If it doesnt then take the engine out and whack a big yank V8 in there .... When it goes wrong take it back and complain

reano

iTrader: (2)

Note terms and conditions of your warranty don't always mean they are legal. If your terms and conditions said "1.1.1 - must have red socks on when accident occurs..." doesn't mean the manufacturer can use that as a reasonable case in court.

I'm not looking for reassurance if I was I would have kept the ppp and still could. I just don't always believe what I hear and I'm asking for actual facts and figures why. I worked for the Law Society for several years and some of the cases that were 'pretty clear' cases were not so 'pretty clear' in the end.

So please more reasoned arguments or actual facts not this hearsay stuff or just saying things with no information behind it I'm here to learn

Nyk Sti8

I have the same car with the same upgrade, I agree with Gary a non engine related claim should be ok but otherwise its down to your dealer being nice and hoping Subaru don't want to inspect your car.

If your that worried wait until the warranty has run out, you probably havn't got long to wait?

Oh and don't forget to tell your insurance company!

It is worth it though

reano

iTrader: (2)

Hi NYK sti8 thanks for your reply but you don't seem to have heard me I'm not actrually worried I'm asking a question and was hoping to get answers that had facts to back them up. Let me repeat I am not worried that I am upgrading my car now and that its still in warranty...... I'm not worried or I would not do it Now thats out the way. Neither am I fretting that Subaru will want to inspect my car. Are you scared? I'm not ... I'm asking just because you have an upgrade doesn't actually mean you invalidate your warranty. You do know that just because someone puts something in the terms and conditions doesn't actually make it legal, you do know that right? Doesn't matter if they are Mr billion dollar car manufacturer, airplane company, etc. I hope you relaise that not everything is worth the paper it's written on but once again why would an upgrade invalidate your warranty? It's just a question after some facts and figures.

highlander68k

Legally, you wouldn't have a leg to stand on if anything was modified.

The car is designed to operate at given power levels. All manufacturers tests are carried out on a standard car and warranties are given on the basis that the car is operated with exactly the same specification as it rolled out of the showroom.

Trying to prove that a modification did or did not cause failure of any kind is not something that companies like to get into and is something that can drag on for years in a legal battle. That is why they clearly state that unauthorised modifications must not be carried out for the car to remain under warranty.

While I understand what you are asking, I would suggest that you resign yourself to the fact that no manufacturer will guarantee there product if somebody else has modified it without their consent.

Let's say for instance you went to WRC and had your package, then went to Joe Bloggs to have a dumpvalve put on and then one week later the engine blew for no apparent reason - who would be to blame?

It works the same for the manufacturer, but they have put in place a legal system to save all the hassle of arguing it out in court - if you modify it, you're responsible for it.

As for law cases and newspaper clips - I've never saw one in the 8 years I worked for a newspaper company that produced a quantity of regional and local newspapers.

reano

iTrader: (2)

Why? What makes you say that? I must repeat I'm not going for assurance. I have actually worked in the Test and QA departments for Honda, Toyota, Ford, etc on freelance so am speaking from some position of knowledge and it is not as clear cut as you state.

You say I don't have a legal leg why specifically? Note I have no intention of bringing my car back to Subaru to say hey look what you've done, etc not even thinking about that. I am just not one of these people that just believe everything I hear. So do you believe all warranties are 100% legal and you cannot contest them? Do you really?

GazTheHat

Does it invalidate your warranty: Yes.
Is there something you can do: Yes. Some dealers will ignore the modification if anything other than the engine goes. Plus WRC will return the car to standard if that helps you.

If the answer was No to the first question, do you think so many people would've had the PPP? I know i wouldn't.

Nyk Sti8

If your not worried about your warranty then I don't really see the point of your post, just get it done and enjoy it

murfs

Firstly i'll have to say that I couldn't give you a sound legal reason why a mod should effect your warranty but I might stretch and say ask a solicitor then come back and tell us.

Cheers

highlander68k

I think your original post may have thrown me off a bit, when you mention engine modifications.

If the defect can be determined as a manufacturing fault then there may be something to argue (or even a lot to argue). If paintwork is faulty and you've modified the engine, then that is a different matter altogether.

If the suspension fails and it is discovered there has been 50 bhp more going through the engine, then it could be attributable to the increase in power as the suspension was designed for the 280 bhp (or whatever). Therefore, the warranty would not be valid.

It seems that each case is assessed on an individual basis and regularly returning buying customers get looked after in my experience.

You state that there are no clear cut rules, but isn't that the case in virtually any legal argument.

reano

iTrader: (2)

Yep thats just what I was saying people say oh if you get mods it invalidates your warranty as you can see that is not necessarily the case as for the guy who says go ask a solicitor Why should I pay to ask them. Forums like this are supposed to help you without you having to pay money, etc. Also sti8 cant people ask questions? 'Just enjoy loler' please respond with something useful Highlander you make the most sense and like a figured those who say it invalidates your warranty actually don't know at all. They just saying it... I will be enjoying my wrc mods and thought I would just ask 'well why?' but not many giving good answers.

ru'

Way to go with your attitude...

reano

iTrader: (2)

I just don't like hearsay. I have no problem with someone saying reano this is why and hear are some facts and figures no problem at all but when someone just says something and you ask why and it's just "well because I say so....."

Chelspeed

Subaru aren't going to write it down as that's just asking for people to go looking for loopholes.

All you can do is go with common sense and assume the courts will apply common sense as well.

If you mod the engine then you're going to affect the engine, the brakes, gearbox, drive components, suspension so you'll invalidate the warranty on them.

If you mod the sound system with an amplifier then you'll invalidate the warranty on the speakers.

If you mod the engine then you won't invalidate the warranty on the speakers.

reano

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for your response Chelspeed first line yep I agree

2nd line yep fine
3rd line why will you invalidate the warranty? If you put lets say a better gearbox on the car and the clutch goes will you invalidate the warranty? WHY WILL you no guess work, why? No hearsay why?
4th line so if you add an amp to the speakers you invalidate the warranty where does it say that? lo bl**dy loud

Last line omg you must be a child. I'm trying to have a serious conversation here. Oh so are you saying if I mod my wheels it won't invalidate my washing machine warranty.... for godsake....

I have no issue with what you say about court applying commonsense that's what I'm saying if you upgrade your breaks and you crash (through another mechanical fault) are the courts going to say well you made the breaks better so your at fault??? This is what I'm saying is it as clear cut as you upgrade 'no warranty'

Please I'm after more factual reasons why not any one been to court, had to argue against a manufacturer, etc Please less of the "you will invalid your warranty because I think so..." type replies and let me repeat (for those who don't read the above threads). I am not looking for absolute assurance or I would not go for any upgrades ... geeez!!

Gary C

If you have the WRC 350 upgrade and the engine or even transmission goes bang, then IM can argue that the increased stress of this package is the cause.

They would refuse the claim,ignore any attempts by you to get them to agree, and then YOU would have to take them to court and prove that the upgrade was not the cause of the failure.

This would be prohibitively expensive, if not virtually impossible (lets face it, it is likely it would be down to the upgrade).

ru'

You're a special one, aren't you?

Have you much experience of posting on forums?

I understand you want facts etc., but that rarely happens on public forums without a lot of conjecture, anecdotal evidence etc.

It helps being polite too, of course. I can't really see why anyone would want to give you the info you require, even if it did exist in a format which you deemed suitable...

MitcheAndr

wonders if reano would take you to court if advice given was wrong!!!

Peanuts

iTrader: (15)

subaru cannot allow themselves to be held responsible for the stupid fvcking spanner monkey that (for example) fitted your uprated box and clutch, said spanner monkey may have (while seperating box from block) caused something catastrophic to happen later down the line.
You are trying to be smart where there is no call for it, Its their sandpit and its their rules.
if you dont want to abide by those rules then play in someone else sandpit (or buy a cheap import).
Look back through the archive that is "SEARCH" and you will find previous cases of warrenty dismissed on account of aftermarket modification.

reano

iTrader: (2)

Loler if you make a comment that is lets say nicely erm, oooh 'stupid' then expect an equally stupid response. I responded to his reply loler

Loler I have asked quite politely and agreed with the people who replied on many points. I have then kindly asked for any real cases to back up what people are saying. No I will not be suing anyone . This is one of the reasons why America has so many lawyers is because it doesn't just 'accept' what a manufacturer says.

Let me say this in a nice, reasonable, considered, polite, lovely, suitable, comfortable way.

All I'm after is does anyone have any cases or facts (examples may be court cases, newspaper clipping, internet sites, etc) that back them up. Hopefully this is a suitable way . I realise I'm arguing against a lot of people that know more than me but if you do know more tell me why? I will gladly accept your evidenced arguments. Thats all I'm asking I hope it's not too much (said in a nice, polite voice really......)

scud8

iTrader: (1)

It looks like we are struggling with definitions here - ie. what do we all mean/understand by "invalidate your warranty".

If we mean "act counter to the T's and C's in the warranty agreement", then it looks like we all agree the answer is Yes.

If we mean "prevent subsequent faults being fixed under warranty", then it looks like everyone agrees this is much more grey.

- You may just get away with no-one noticing or caring that you've had a mod done (anyone got any definite examples of this?).

- If the dealer and/or manufacturer do decide your mod is the cause of the failure and therefore refusing the claim you obviously have the option of going to the courts (as you say, on the grounds that the T's and C's are unfair contract conditions). Gut feels says this is unlikely to happen often and is likely to be more costly than just paying up - does anyone have any examples of this happening with positive or negative results?

gridgway

looking for facts in this matter is probably quite hard! Facts could come in the form of:

court cases
lawyers' expert opinion (although only opinion until tested in court)
internet forums - mostly hearsay and bigotted opinion (just like this post)
newspaper reports - not a hope, worse than forums
people's actual experience of being dealt with - not bad, but you are very unlikely to hear the truth, the whole and nothing but

So you are left with court cases (doubt if there have been any), reports from other owners of their experience, or the warranty document itself!

So my own experience is that on being asked about my forthecoming godspeed upgrade, the dealer said, no probs, but they would look very closely at brake related warranty claims and anything that might be related. We couldn't think of anything that might fail that wasn't obvious as to whether it was upgrade related. Seemed reasonable to me.

Now of course that in its own right is just opinion and hard to hold them to it if it came to a difference of opinion.

Graham

Chelspeed

Trying to remain polite in the face of abuse....

> 4th line so if you add an amp to the speakers you invalidate the warranty
> where does it say that? lo bl**dy loud

Suppose the standard Subaru stereo has a 10W stereo with 10W speakers. If you add an 50W amp to your stereo then the speakers will break. You wouldn't expect Subaru to accept a warranty claim on the speakers in that case would you? It doesn't have to say that because any reasonable person would understand that without writing it down.

This is called an analogy, I was trying to make the point that the warranty won't cover components that are at risk of being damaged by components "upstream" that have been modified. So if you mod the engine then it'll put more strain on the gearbox and the gearbox is no longer covered by the warranty.

> Last line omg you must be a child. I'm trying to have a serious conversation
> here. Oh so are you saying if I mod my wheels it won't invalidate my
> washing machine warranty.... for godsake....

You think I'm a child! OK here goes again in words of one syllable. Again it was an example, us grown up adults use examples to explain things to people. You seemed not to have understood the point that has been made many times above so speakers and engines was an extreme example to make a point.

I was trying, clearly unsuccessfully, to show that you can mod one component and it will affect some components which will then not be covered and it will not affect some other components which will still be covered.

murfs

NO!

MTR

If by upgrade you mean modification , then I would say yes it invalidates your warranty, on the particular section of the car you have modified.
An engine power increase would negate warranty on all engine/drivetrain items, but not the stereo, interior trim etc.

I believe that is wrong.

The onus is on you to prove that your modification has not had a detrimental effect on the car.

Something which would in all probability cost you more money, and perhaps equally importantly, more time than you could afford.
A car in pieces at home awaiting the outcome of a costly legal battle, (a major motor manufacturer usually has a lot more money for legal battles than a private individual, and as much time as it takes, as he's not getting the bus to work).

(excuse the capitals in the next section , I am not shouting, but don't know how to make the text appear bold on here)

Quote from the Subaru Warranties handbook:

What is not covered:
Defects, malfunctions or failures resulting from misuse (e.g. overloading, rallying or racing), speed trials, negligence, MODIFICATION, ALTERATION, TAMPERING, disconnection, improper adjustments or repairs, accidents, installation of parts not equivalent in quality and DESIGN to parts supplied by subaru (uk) limited, ADD ON PARTS, improper maintenance or use of fuels, oils and/or lubricants other than those recommended.

End of quote.

I would suggest faced with this in a court of law, you would find it dificult to get a positive outcome, if you have modified, altered etc etc.

Do you remember the publicised Vauxhall Monteray blown engine fiasco, that made it onto Top Gear.
The owner had had engine problems (might have beeen core plugs popping out, or it started running on its sump oil due to turbo bearing failure, but I cannot remember exactly) and he insisted it should have a new engine fitted, which was refused.
The engine was repaired and refitted, but strangely it blew up a short time later, wrecking all the major components!!!
Coincidence or malicious action by the owner?
Who knows.
But after stripping it down Vauxhall told the owner that they would not pay ANYTHING towards the repair as they believed it had been caused by his actions.
He didn't modify it, but may have misused it.

They gave him the car back with the engine in pieces in the boot.

This was an expensive new car, now no longer working and a costly court case the only way to potentially recover costs from the manufacturer.
I believe he was fortunate that the media picked up on the story via the likes of Mr Clarkson on Top Gear, and others in the motoring press, and Vauxhall relented.
But they did not have to.

When your car is in pieces, with a failure that MAY be attributable to something you have done (modified) you are not in a position to demand anything.
You can ask politely and hope the manufacturer wants to be reasonable.

In the words of Clint Eastwood, 'Are you feeling lucky?'

I suspect most people can't afford the fight and the potential loss, so abide with the 'rules'.
Wether they are legal or not doesn't really come into the equation for most of us.
Its only the extremely wealthy that can afford the privilege to fight a losing battle 'on principle'.

Cheers
MTR

davedipster

I supose it all depends on your dealer, if they are willing to ignore the engine mods you have made then all is well cos the paperwork will be clean and all engine/drivetrain claims will be paid. If they don't like your mods then the paperwork will say modified engine and any engine/drivetrain claims may be stopped by subaru when the paperwork is seen.
Really silly on a new car, cos you have paid for 3 year 60k mile warrantee when you bought the thing. To throw that out the window for the sake of a few more hp is madness.

dipster