What's better when rolling ...
19 October 2005, 12:38 AM
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What's better when rolling ...
Torque or BHP?
Few posts on here recently alleging that once rolling "inferior" cars can match or beat a Scooby for straight line acceleration (not the twisties of course). Got me thinking about the above.
My Sti (when I owned it) had 276BHP and 258ft/torque ie standard car. Is this going to beat one of the diesel boys who are probably going to have more torque, say a 330d which has circa 300+ ft/torque? Again this is a standard car. So Scooby has more BHP (a lot more ie +75BHP ish) but BMW has more torque (+50 or so).
I don't want this to turn into a petrol vs diesel thread, just interested in views on BHP vs torque once on the move. Could equally apply to a mad petrol car like a Aston Martin that has big BHP and torque.
TX.
Few posts on here recently alleging that once rolling "inferior" cars can match or beat a Scooby for straight line acceleration (not the twisties of course). Got me thinking about the above.
My Sti (when I owned it) had 276BHP and 258ft/torque ie standard car. Is this going to beat one of the diesel boys who are probably going to have more torque, say a 330d which has circa 300+ ft/torque? Again this is a standard car. So Scooby has more BHP (a lot more ie +75BHP ish) but BMW has more torque (+50 or so).
I don't want this to turn into a petrol vs diesel thread, just interested in views on BHP vs torque once on the move. Could equally apply to a mad petrol car like a Aston Martin that has big BHP and torque.
TX.
19 October 2005, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Terminator X
Torque or BHP?
Few posts on here recently alleging that once rolling "inferior" cars can match or beat a Scooby for straight line acceleration (not the twisties of course). Got me thinking about the above.
My Sti (when I owned it) had 276BHP and 258ft/torque ie standard car. Is this going to beat one of the diesel boys who are probably going to have more torque, say a 330d which has circa 300+ ft/torque? Again this is a standard car. So Scooby has more BHP (a lot more ie +75BHP ish) but BMW has more torque (+50 or so).
I don't want this to turn into a petrol vs diesel thread, just interested in views on BHP vs torque once on the move. Could equally apply to a mad petrol car like a Aston Martin that has big BHP and torque.
TX.
Few posts on here recently alleging that once rolling "inferior" cars can match or beat a Scooby for straight line acceleration (not the twisties of course). Got me thinking about the above.
My Sti (when I owned it) had 276BHP and 258ft/torque ie standard car. Is this going to beat one of the diesel boys who are probably going to have more torque, say a 330d which has circa 300+ ft/torque? Again this is a standard car. So Scooby has more BHP (a lot more ie +75BHP ish) but BMW has more torque (+50 or so).
I don't want this to turn into a petrol vs diesel thread, just interested in views on BHP vs torque once on the move. Could equally apply to a mad petrol car like a Aston Martin that has big BHP and torque.
TX.
Cars with good torque make for a more relaxed, flexible car to drive with good in gear times and acceleration that "feels" very strong e.g. think Scooby, or a good diesel
Cars with high bhp, but relatively low torque are much more frenetic and harder work, but can as quick -even though they won't feel as quick subjectively- and can be a lot of fun! think Honda 2000.
You pays your money......
Ideally you want good outputs for both.
At the end of day, its the performance figures that have the final say I guess!
NS04
19 October 2005, 10:26 AM
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no no no no no no
Without GEARING, the talk of torque and bhp is MEANINGLESS (standing start or rolling is neither here nor there).
Just to give you an extreme example, some of these VW and BMW diesels have MORE torque than a Formula 1 car.
BHP = (TORQUE x RPM) / 5252
Ultimately 3 ways of getting big BHP
1) Revs
2) Displacement
3) Forced induction
If you want to know WHAT performance a car has, look at BHP figures. If you want to know HOW it is delivered, look at the torque figures, gearing etc.
Without GEARING, the talk of torque and bhp is MEANINGLESS (standing start or rolling is neither here nor there).
Just to give you an extreme example, some of these VW and BMW diesels have MORE torque than a Formula 1 car.
BHP = (TORQUE x RPM) / 5252
Ultimately 3 ways of getting big BHP
1) Revs
2) Displacement
3) Forced induction
If you want to know WHAT performance a car has, look at BHP figures. If you want to know HOW it is delivered, look at the torque figures, gearing etc.
19 October 2005, 11:04 AM
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TX,
Essentially, Dracoro is right. It matters not what torque figure etc is being ultimately displaced, but how the vehicle is geared and putting that power/torque down on the road.
From experience, I know that an old 330d (184bhp/288ft/lbs) with a 5spd box is as quick from 80-130mph as a Classic UK Impreza turbo, in 5th, with FMIC and approx 275 bhp. However, my current 330d (204bhp/302ft/lbs) with 6spd box would probably lose out if I kept it in 6th. If I change down to 5th I suspect I'd hold it, and if I hit 4th, I suspect that it would be quicker as I have more available power at the wheels at that time.
I suspect that transmission losses would play a big part. Subarus are notoriously poor for transmission loss, and this can be 80+bhp. For a RWD car I'd imagine it to be half that. Therefore, a current 330d will have more power and torque at the wheels than a WRX/STI. It's just how that is applied via the gearing that matters.
FYI, 3rd gear on my 6spd box will take me from 15-90mph, so the old argument about diesels being short geared are non-founded with that particular model.
All the best
Matt
Essentially, Dracoro is right. It matters not what torque figure etc is being ultimately displaced, but how the vehicle is geared and putting that power/torque down on the road.
From experience, I know that an old 330d (184bhp/288ft/lbs) with a 5spd box is as quick from 80-130mph as a Classic UK Impreza turbo, in 5th, with FMIC and approx 275 bhp. However, my current 330d (204bhp/302ft/lbs) with 6spd box would probably lose out if I kept it in 6th. If I change down to 5th I suspect I'd hold it, and if I hit 4th, I suspect that it would be quicker as I have more available power at the wheels at that time.
I suspect that transmission losses would play a big part. Subarus are notoriously poor for transmission loss, and this can be 80+bhp. For a RWD car I'd imagine it to be half that. Therefore, a current 330d will have more power and torque at the wheels than a WRX/STI. It's just how that is applied via the gearing that matters.
FYI, 3rd gear on my 6spd box will take me from 15-90mph, so the old argument about diesels being short geared are non-founded with that particular model.
All the best
Matt
19 October 2005, 01:13 PM
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Well my Sti simply left a chipped 330d down the 2 mile and half dual carrigeway... out of a 35-40 mph roundabout...
Saying that i was impressed by a merc 320CD down the slip road... i had to really extend the Sti to make a differnce...
Saying that i was impressed by a merc 320CD down the slip road... i had to really extend the Sti to make a differnce...
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19 October 2005, 01:31 PM
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Cheers for the replies guys.
I used to own an Integra Type R which had p1ss poor torque but fairly mad BHP for a small car (195 ish) + it was a hoot to drive; fairly fast to 5.5k rpm then mental after that ...
Currently got a 330d sport so know what you mean re relaxed performance of highish torque; used to own the STi though so also know how bonkers the acceleration of 276BHP feels.
What would happen do you think if 2 cars came up against each other from a rolling start, the 1st with 200bhp + 150ft/torque, the 2nd with the exact opposite ie 150bhp + 200 ft/torque? Would one beat the other or would it be fairly even? Sorry if I've missed the point of comments made above ...
TX.
I used to own an Integra Type R which had p1ss poor torque but fairly mad BHP for a small car (195 ish) + it was a hoot to drive; fairly fast to 5.5k rpm then mental after that ...
Currently got a 330d sport so know what you mean re relaxed performance of highish torque; used to own the STi though so also know how bonkers the acceleration of 276BHP feels.
What would happen do you think if 2 cars came up against each other from a rolling start, the 1st with 200bhp + 150ft/torque, the 2nd with the exact opposite ie 150bhp + 200 ft/torque? Would one beat the other or would it be fairly even? Sorry if I've missed the point of comments made above ...
TX.
Last edited by Terminator X; 19 October 2005 at 01:43 PM. Reason: I'm an idiot
19 October 2005, 01:50 PM
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Assuming all other things equal, the 200bhp would win. As said before though, depends on the gearing.
If the 2nd had 10000000000lbt torque but 150bhp, it still wouldn't make a difference. As I said, all depends on the gearing and revs.
If the 2nd had 10000000000lbt torque but 150bhp, it still wouldn't make a difference. As I said, all depends on the gearing and revs.
19 October 2005, 03:07 PM
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It also depends on the power/torque curves.
I'm sure it's possible to map an engine to make 300 torques (lol) at 5000 rpm exactly, but under 50 for the rest of the rev range above and below that point.
Unless said vehicle had a cvt drive system it would be pants despite the 'headline' figure.
I'm sure it's possible to map an engine to make 300 torques (lol) at 5000 rpm exactly, but under 50 for the rest of the rev range above and below that point.
Unless said vehicle had a cvt drive system it would be pants despite the 'headline' figure.
19 October 2005, 03:23 PM
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TX,
Ultimately, the car with the most bhp wins!
This is fairly clearly demonstrated when I go up against an E46 M3 at the Ring. There is a part of the circuit called Kesselchen and this is a fairly steep, continuous hill for about 1km. Exiting the corner at the bottom (Bergwerk) at the same speed as an M3, my 330d loses out because it doesn't have the power to pull it up the hill. IIRC, there is about a 15mph difference when lifting for Angst Curve.
It's about the only time I wish I had about another 100bhp!
Matt
Ultimately, the car with the most bhp wins!
This is fairly clearly demonstrated when I go up against an E46 M3 at the Ring. There is a part of the circuit called Kesselchen and this is a fairly steep, continuous hill for about 1km. Exiting the corner at the bottom (Bergwerk) at the same speed as an M3, my 330d loses out because it doesn't have the power to pull it up the hill. IIRC, there is about a 15mph difference when lifting for Angst Curve. It's about the only time I wish I had about another 100bhp!
Matt
19 October 2005, 10:31 PM
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My old man has a 330d and at any speed (but in the right gear) my 05 WRX is a LOT quicker, especially out of slowish corners/roundabouts. Now if both cars are in say 5th at 40ish then the BM pulls away.
As said Merc oil burners can be a different story, my father in-law has a 220CDI that's as quick as the 330..!
The place where torque helps out is in catching people off guard or opposingly (sp?) having a lack of torque means you can be caught with your pants down in the wrong gear..!
As said Merc oil burners can be a different story, my father in-law has a 220CDI that's as quick as the 330..!
The place where torque helps out is in catching people off guard or opposingly (sp?) having a lack of torque means you can be caught with your pants down in the wrong gear..!
19 October 2005, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by jasonius
The place where torque helps out is in catching people off guard or opposingly (sp?) having a lack of torque means you can be caught with your pants down in the wrong gear..!
21 October 2005, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Terminator X
Cheers guys, BHP wins!! Got it now ...
TX.
TX.
lots of bhp cant go wrong
n did u know that the FWD civic boys who do 9sec 1/4 miles prefer the 1.6 engine insted of the 1.8 cos the 1.8 produces too much torque and it makes it too hard for them to get the power down!!!!
odd that in it, but it makes sence
kinda lol
21 October 2005, 08:47 AM
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ctr with 197 bhp and 140 lb ft 0-60 in 6.7 and 0-100 in 17
golf gti tdi 150 bhp and 240 lb ft 0-60 in 8.4 and 0-100 in errrrr eventually,,trouble is very narrow power bands and needing to change gear every extra 20 mph you accelerate.
Most peformance petrol cars will pull nearly a ton in 3rd the golf is in 4th at 70mph.
golf gti tdi 150 bhp and 240 lb ft 0-60 in 8.4 and 0-100 in errrrr eventually,,trouble is very narrow power bands and needing to change gear every extra 20 mph you accelerate.
Most peformance petrol cars will pull nearly a ton in 3rd the golf is in 4th at 70mph.
21 October 2005, 10:02 AM
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Having gear ratios that mean changing 20mph later isn't necessarily the best thing. After all, the closer ratio g'box, the faster acceleration. Obviously you lose top speed in top gear but that hardly matters. Although many cars have close gears 1-5 and a high 6th.
The advantage of a revvy high bhp petrol engine is that when out of the main power band, there is still some power. Whereas in a diesel, once out of the power band, there's nothing, instead of power tailing off like petrols, it's more like hitting a brick wall when the revs get high.
Obviously, it's all subjective, some diesels now rev quite freely and highly(ish) and some petrols don't rev well. But on the whole, petrols are more revvy and produce top power high up in the rev range.
The advantage of a revvy high bhp petrol engine is that when out of the main power band, there is still some power. Whereas in a diesel, once out of the power band, there's nothing, instead of power tailing off like petrols, it's more like hitting a brick wall when the revs get high.
Obviously, it's all subjective, some diesels now rev quite freely and highly(ish) and some petrols don't rev well. But on the whole, petrols are more revvy and produce top power high up in the rev range.
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