Engine Pre-analing
14 October 2005, 09:37 AM
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Engine Pre-analing
Just been reading me big boys book of engine rebuilding - it cost about £80 and is supposed to be the bible for training rebuilders in the US.
Anyway, here's a quote I though a certain person would enjoy...
"Before the engine is started, it should be preoiled to prevent damage. By preoiling the engine, all components are pumped oil under pressure. Preoiling can be performed manually or by using special equipment designed for the purpose...
... if a preoiler is not available, the engine can be preoiled by cranking the engine. Preoiling is particularly importnat on engines equipped with turbochargers. The internal components of the turbocharger rotate at a very fast rate. If they are not preoiled, these components will quickly seize. In addition, a turbocharged engine must be preoiled whenever an oil change is performed."
Happy?
Anyway, here's a quote I though a certain person would enjoy...
"Before the engine is started, it should be preoiled to prevent damage. By preoiling the engine, all components are pumped oil under pressure. Preoiling can be performed manually or by using special equipment designed for the purpose...
... if a preoiler is not available, the engine can be preoiled by cranking the engine. Preoiling is particularly importnat on engines equipped with turbochargers. The internal components of the turbocharger rotate at a very fast rate. If they are not preoiled, these components will quickly seize. In addition, a turbocharged engine must be preoiled whenever an oil change is performed."
Happy?
14 October 2005, 11:04 AM
#3
Can't see how a turbo fitted to ANY engine can make the blindest bit of difference....it won't cause every single bearing, and tappet in the whole engine to suddenly run dry 
Pre-oiling MUST be done on ALL engines that are new or have been stripped down/rebuilt. Regardless of a turbo. It's not needed on an engine that has previously ran with oil, as there is a boundry layer of oil on all the bearing components that will provide protection for the first few seconds where there is a lack of oil flow (note FLOW - pressure is a byproduct ).
Apologies if this thwarted your attempts at proving Pete wrong, but he'll point this out anyway
Pre-oiling MUST be done on ALL engines that are new or have been stripped down/rebuilt. Regardless of a turbo. It's not needed on an engine that has previously ran with oil, as there is a boundry layer of oil on all the bearing components that will provide protection for the first few seconds where there is a lack of oil flow (note FLOW - pressure is a byproduct ).
Apologies if this thwarted your attempts at proving Pete wrong, but he'll point this out anyway
14 October 2005, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ALi-B
Can't see how a turbo fitted to ANY engine can make the blindest bit of difference....it won't cause every single bearing, and tappet in the whole engine to suddenly run dry
The fact that bearings on your crank and cams run at a TENTH of the speed of turbo bearings, doesn't make a difference? You've been listening to Pete again.
And the small point that the emboldened bit is the relevant part. The rest is just context. Oil Change anyone?
14 October 2005, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ALi-B
Can't see how a turbo fitted to ANY engine can make the blindest bit of difference....it won't cause every single bearing, and tappet in the whole engine to suddenly run dry
Pre-oiling MUST be done on ALL engines that are new or have been stripped down/rebuilt. Regardless of a turbo. It's not needed on an engine that has previously ran with oil, as there is a boundry layer of oil on all the bearing components that will provide protection for the first few seconds where there is a lack of oil flow (note FLOW - pressure is a byproduct ).
Apologies if this thwarted your attempts at proving Pete wrong, but he'll point this out anyway
Pre-oiling MUST be done on ALL engines that are new or have been stripped down/rebuilt. Regardless of a turbo. It's not needed on an engine that has previously ran with oil, as there is a boundry layer of oil on all the bearing components that will provide protection for the first few seconds where there is a lack of oil flow (note FLOW - pressure is a byproduct ).
Apologies if this thwarted your attempts at proving Pete wrong, but he'll point this out anyway
But the oil does get a harder time in a turbo'd engine which obviously
can have an effect on the rest of the components.
Hence the increased service intervals ie every 3000 miles.
you would'nt change the oil on a normally aspirated engine that often
would you.
Rob
14 October 2005, 01:31 PM
#6
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What utter utter bollox .............. and what a waste of £80 - my book is available for £9:99 in all good bookshops.
Titled, "The **** Way to Run a Car" and pre-oiling and soaking of the Oil Filter has pride of place!!
As mentioned above, your engine bearings and tappets and oil have no idea that you have a turbo fitted FFS! Because, when you start your car up after an Oil change you do NOT rev it, do you now?? So the turbo isn't doing ANYTHING!
You are clearly reading the section about engine rebuilds ... and in that case EVERY engine needs pre-oiling.
This has been done to death, basically the sensible and sane amongst us do NOT do the **** Oil Change (because there's no need to!) and have suffered no ill effects!!
Someone posted on here that they soak their Oil Filter overnight!!!!!!!!!!!
People like this are walking the fooookin' streets un-escorted!!
Pete
Titled, "The **** Way to Run a Car" and pre-oiling and soaking of the Oil Filter has pride of place!!
As mentioned above, your engine bearings and tappets and oil have no idea that you have a turbo fitted FFS! Because, when you start your car up after an Oil change you do NOT rev it, do you now?? So the turbo isn't doing ANYTHING!
You are clearly reading the section about engine rebuilds ... and in that case EVERY engine needs pre-oiling.
This has been done to death, basically the sensible and sane amongst us do NOT do the **** Oil Change (because there's no need to!) and have suffered no ill effects!!
Someone posted on here that they soak their Oil Filter overnight!!!!!!!!!!!
People like this are walking the fooookin' streets un-escorted!! Pete
14 October 2005, 01:49 PM
#7
Scooby Regular
Look at what EVERYONE says ...... a random example:-
http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/how...8/article.html
And I quote,
STEP SIX: Slide out, open the hood (if you haven't already) and remove the oil filler cap. Set it aside. This will help the oil drain a little easier. O.K., take a breather.
Now, here's the deal. If you're in a hurry, you can dive right in and finish the oil change. But think about it. Drops of dirty oil are still dripping down. Personally, we like to give it a good hour to drain completely. They don't do that in the quick-lube places. If you have the time, peel off your gloves and take a break. Grab a bite, drink some soda, watch the tube.
STEP SEVEN: O.K., you're back. Put your gloves on and get to work. Before you thread the new oil filter in place, dip a finger into the drain pan and coat the rubber gasket on the bottom of the filter with oil, and set it aside. This will help it seat better against the engine block. With a clean rag, wipe off the round metal circle on the engine where the oil filter fits, then thread the new filter onto the post. When it's finger-tight, either tighten it by hand if you're strong enough (it takes about one-half to three-quarters of a turn, no more: read the instructions on the filter), or flip the oil filter wrench over on the socket wrench and tighten it that way.
STEP EIGHT: We recommend using a new sealing washer on the drain plug. Put the washer in place and thread the drain plug back into its hole. Scooch it up tight with the socket set, but not so tight that you can't get it off the next time (remember your struggles earlier; better to have it snug but not stripped.) Now take the oil drain pan and the empty milk bottle and the funnel. If you have a friend, have him hold the bottle while you pour the oil into it. When most of the oil has found the bottom of the bottle, seal it with the lid, then wipe out the inside of the funnel with a clean rag. (We sometimes prop the drain pan against a wall and let it continue to drip into the bottle while we do the next step. You'll need an extra funnel to do this.)
STEP NINE: Set the cleaned funnel into the oil filler hole and pour in as many quarts as the manufacturer recommends. As the oil fills, begin cleaning up. Throw the newspapers in the trash and wipe down all your tools. Discard the empty oil containers in a recycling bin. After the oil is all in, twist the oil cap back on and check the dipstick for oil level, just to make sure. Take the old oil filter, place it in the Ziploc bag, and seal it.
STEP TEN: Start the engine and let it idle for about five minutes, looking for leaks.
START THE ENGINE!!!!!!!
Got it??
Pete
http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/how...8/article.html
And I quote,
STEP SIX: Slide out, open the hood (if you haven't already) and remove the oil filler cap. Set it aside. This will help the oil drain a little easier. O.K., take a breather.
Now, here's the deal. If you're in a hurry, you can dive right in and finish the oil change. But think about it. Drops of dirty oil are still dripping down. Personally, we like to give it a good hour to drain completely. They don't do that in the quick-lube places. If you have the time, peel off your gloves and take a break. Grab a bite, drink some soda, watch the tube.
STEP SEVEN: O.K., you're back. Put your gloves on and get to work. Before you thread the new oil filter in place, dip a finger into the drain pan and coat the rubber gasket on the bottom of the filter with oil, and set it aside. This will help it seat better against the engine block. With a clean rag, wipe off the round metal circle on the engine where the oil filter fits, then thread the new filter onto the post. When it's finger-tight, either tighten it by hand if you're strong enough (it takes about one-half to three-quarters of a turn, no more: read the instructions on the filter), or flip the oil filter wrench over on the socket wrench and tighten it that way.
STEP EIGHT: We recommend using a new sealing washer on the drain plug. Put the washer in place and thread the drain plug back into its hole. Scooch it up tight with the socket set, but not so tight that you can't get it off the next time (remember your struggles earlier; better to have it snug but not stripped.) Now take the oil drain pan and the empty milk bottle and the funnel. If you have a friend, have him hold the bottle while you pour the oil into it. When most of the oil has found the bottom of the bottle, seal it with the lid, then wipe out the inside of the funnel with a clean rag. (We sometimes prop the drain pan against a wall and let it continue to drip into the bottle while we do the next step. You'll need an extra funnel to do this.)
STEP NINE: Set the cleaned funnel into the oil filler hole and pour in as many quarts as the manufacturer recommends. As the oil fills, begin cleaning up. Throw the newspapers in the trash and wipe down all your tools. Discard the empty oil containers in a recycling bin. After the oil is all in, twist the oil cap back on and check the dipstick for oil level, just to make sure. Take the old oil filter, place it in the Ziploc bag, and seal it.
STEP TEN: Start the engine and let it idle for about five minutes, looking for leaks.
START THE ENGINE!!!!!!!
Got it??
Pete
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14 October 2005, 01:51 PM
#8
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The last meeting of the **** Oil Change Group ..................
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/08...SNAnalClub.jpg
Do what they say ...... or live life!!
Pete
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/08...SNAnalClub.jpg
Do what they say ...... or live life!!
Pete
14 October 2005, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by pslewis
The last meeting of the **** Oil Change Group ..................
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/08...SNAnalClub.jpg
Do what they say ...... or live life!!
Pete
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/08...SNAnalClub.jpg
Do what they say ...... or live life!!
Pete
14 October 2005, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by kammy
I just fill up the oil filter then screw it back on. And away I ago!!!!!!!!!!!!
14 October 2005, 06:44 PM
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I would have to agree with my name sake mr Lewis on this one, only a complete nonse would rev an engine before the oil pressure has built up. you would also pre oil any engine components that have contacting points during an engine rebuild regardless of whether or not a turbo is fitted.
My advise would be to read Mayfair or similar when you next fancy a browse and leave the boring mechanical bits to the people with the know how.
My advise would be to read Mayfair or similar when you next fancy a browse and leave the boring mechanical bits to the people with the know how.
14 October 2005, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by pslewis
Look at what EVERYONE says ...... a random example:-
http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/how...8/article.html
And I quote,
STEP SIX: Slide out, open the hood (if you haven't already) and remove the oil filler cap. Set it aside. This will help the oil drain a little easier. O.K., take a breather.
Now, here's the deal. If you're in a hurry, you can dive right in and finish the oil change. But think about it. Drops of dirty oil are still dripping down. Personally, we like to give it a good hour to drain completely. They don't do that in the quick-lube places. If you have the time, peel off your gloves and take a break. Grab a bite, drink some soda, watch the tube.
STEP SEVEN: O.K., you're back. Put your gloves on and get to work. Before you thread the new oil filter in place, dip a finger into the drain pan and coat the rubber gasket on the bottom of the filter with oil, and set it aside. This will help it seat better against the engine block. With a clean rag, wipe off the round metal circle on the engine where the oil filter fits, then thread the new filter onto the post. When it's finger-tight, either tighten it by hand if you're strong enough (it takes about one-half to three-quarters of a turn, no more: read the instructions on the filter), or flip the oil filter wrench over on the socket wrench and tighten it that way.
STEP EIGHT: We recommend using a new sealing washer on the drain plug. Put the washer in place and thread the drain plug back into its hole. Scooch it up tight with the socket set, but not so tight that you can't get it off the next time (remember your struggles earlier; better to have it snug but not stripped.) Now take the oil drain pan and the empty milk bottle and the funnel. If you have a friend, have him hold the bottle while you pour the oil into it. When most of the oil has found the bottom of the bottle, seal it with the lid, then wipe out the inside of the funnel with a clean rag. (We sometimes prop the drain pan against a wall and let it continue to drip into the bottle while we do the next step. You'll need an extra funnel to do this.)
STEP NINE: Set the cleaned funnel into the oil filler hole and pour in as many quarts as the manufacturer recommends. As the oil fills, begin cleaning up. Throw the newspapers in the trash and wipe down all your tools. Discard the empty oil containers in a recycling bin. After the oil is all in, twist the oil cap back on and check the dipstick for oil level, just to make sure. Take the old oil filter, place it in the Ziploc bag, and seal it.
STEP TEN: Start the engine and let it idle for about five minutes, looking for leaks.
START THE ENGINE!!!!!!!
Got it??
Pete
http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/how...8/article.html
And I quote,
STEP SIX: Slide out, open the hood (if you haven't already) and remove the oil filler cap. Set it aside. This will help the oil drain a little easier. O.K., take a breather.
Now, here's the deal. If you're in a hurry, you can dive right in and finish the oil change. But think about it. Drops of dirty oil are still dripping down. Personally, we like to give it a good hour to drain completely. They don't do that in the quick-lube places. If you have the time, peel off your gloves and take a break. Grab a bite, drink some soda, watch the tube.
STEP SEVEN: O.K., you're back. Put your gloves on and get to work. Before you thread the new oil filter in place, dip a finger into the drain pan and coat the rubber gasket on the bottom of the filter with oil, and set it aside. This will help it seat better against the engine block. With a clean rag, wipe off the round metal circle on the engine where the oil filter fits, then thread the new filter onto the post. When it's finger-tight, either tighten it by hand if you're strong enough (it takes about one-half to three-quarters of a turn, no more: read the instructions on the filter), or flip the oil filter wrench over on the socket wrench and tighten it that way.
STEP EIGHT: We recommend using a new sealing washer on the drain plug. Put the washer in place and thread the drain plug back into its hole. Scooch it up tight with the socket set, but not so tight that you can't get it off the next time (remember your struggles earlier; better to have it snug but not stripped.) Now take the oil drain pan and the empty milk bottle and the funnel. If you have a friend, have him hold the bottle while you pour the oil into it. When most of the oil has found the bottom of the bottle, seal it with the lid, then wipe out the inside of the funnel with a clean rag. (We sometimes prop the drain pan against a wall and let it continue to drip into the bottle while we do the next step. You'll need an extra funnel to do this.)
STEP NINE: Set the cleaned funnel into the oil filler hole and pour in as many quarts as the manufacturer recommends. As the oil fills, begin cleaning up. Throw the newspapers in the trash and wipe down all your tools. Discard the empty oil containers in a recycling bin. After the oil is all in, twist the oil cap back on and check the dipstick for oil level, just to make sure. Take the old oil filter, place it in the Ziploc bag, and seal it.
STEP TEN: Start the engine and let it idle for about five minutes, looking for leaks.
START THE ENGINE!!!!!!!
Got it??
Pete
Jesus they can't even go to war without shooting each other
Rob
14 October 2005, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by pslewis
What utter utter bollox .............. and what a waste of £80 - my book is available for £9:99 in all good bookshops.
Titled, "The **** Way to Run a Car" and pre-oiling and soaking of the Oil Filter has pride of place!!
As mentioned above, your engine bearings and tappets and oil have no idea that you have a turbo fitted FFS! Because, when you start your car up after an Oil change you do NOT rev it, do you now?? So the turbo isn't doing ANYTHING!
You are clearly reading the section about engine rebuilds ... and in that case EVERY engine needs pre-oiling.
This has been done to death, basically the sensible and sane amongst us do NOT do the **** Oil Change (because there's no need to!) and have suffered no ill effects!!
Someone posted on here that they soak their Oil Filter overnight!!!!!!!!!!! People like this are walking the fooookin' streets un-escorted!!
Pete
Titled, "The **** Way to Run a Car" and pre-oiling and soaking of the Oil Filter has pride of place!!
As mentioned above, your engine bearings and tappets and oil have no idea that you have a turbo fitted FFS! Because, when you start your car up after an Oil change you do NOT rev it, do you now?? So the turbo isn't doing ANYTHING!
You are clearly reading the section about engine rebuilds ... and in that case EVERY engine needs pre-oiling.
This has been done to death, basically the sensible and sane amongst us do NOT do the **** Oil Change (because there's no need to!) and have suffered no ill effects!!
Someone posted on here that they soak their Oil Filter overnight!!!!!!!!!!!
People like this are walking the fooookin' streets un-escorted!! Pete
Regards
Simon
14 October 2005, 07:28 PM
#17
Scooby Regular
Originally Posted by GC8
Peter; I wish that I knew as much as you think that you know. Fortunately I do know a lot more than you actually know.
Regards
Simon
Regards
Simon
You are just an anally retentive jerk .... nowt wrong with that, just a fact of life
Pete
14 October 2005, 07:44 PM
#21
Scooby Regular
Originally Posted by Butty
Oh dear - that was a clanger.
So what path is the air taking at idle then?
So what path is the air taking at idle then?
Pete
14 October 2005, 07:45 PM
#22
Originally Posted by scoobfan
I think he was refering to the Turbo in particular, not the whole engine.
But the oil does get a harder time in a turbo'd engine which obviously
can have an effect on the rest of the components.
Hence the increased service intervals ie every 3000 miles.
you would'nt change the oil on a normally aspirated engine that often
would you.
Rob
But the oil does get a harder time in a turbo'd engine which obviously
can have an effect on the rest of the components.
Hence the increased service intervals ie every 3000 miles.
you would'nt change the oil on a normally aspirated engine that often
would you.
Rob
Turbo or not...when you empty the sump there is still oil in the oil ways, turbo, cranshaft, tappets etc etc.
Think there might some wires crossed here...there is nothing in this thread about service intervals...only cranking the engine over after re-filling.
As for N/a engine need 3K serices...look at almost every motorbike engine
Most high performance car engines used get around oil temperature problems by simply increasing sump capacity (Bentley/ Rolls Royce engine hold 10litres of oil) - but that isn't very environmentally friendly, so the onus is to use better oil and use less of it.
What???? : picks himself up off floor:
The fact that bearings on your crank and cams run at a TENTH of the speed of turbo bearings, doesn't make a difference? You've been listening to Pete again.
And the small point that the emboldened bit is the relevant part. The rest is just context. Oil Change anyone?
The fact that bearings on your crank and cams run at a TENTH of the speed of turbo bearings, doesn't make a difference? You've been listening to Pete again.
And the small point that the emboldened bit is the relevant part. The rest is just context. Oil Change anyone?
Turbo bearings are completely different to crank/cam bearings in design and principal, using rollar/needle bearings. Which hold a small amount of oil anyway and can run for without an oil feed without effect as long as it doesn't endure any heat or loads. i.e - an idling engine won't kill it.
Just changed my oil today. Lets see if I succumb to the Imprezas reputation for blowing up within 500 miles of being serviced
The only **** procedure I did do was fill the filter, like I've always done. A habit that wore off after working on Rover V8s
(Rover TSB from way back in the late 1960's stating that filters must be prefilled due to the crap oil pump design not being able to self prime - Subaru's oil pumps can prime on their own...but what the hey )
14 October 2005, 07:51 PM
#23
Scooby Regular
ALi-B .... good post - your engine will blow up soon you know??
I changed my own Oil 3,000miles ago and used, SHOCK HORROR, Comma Oil at £16
I filled the filter as I always do ...... but didn't do all that bollox about cranking the engine over ...... did my engine blow up???????????
Did it fooooook!!
Quite what the ***** think they are doing by being complete pratts is beyond my mindset ................. but then, as Simon says in an earlier post, they think they have superior knowledge!!
Pete
I changed my own Oil 3,000miles ago and used, SHOCK HORROR, Comma Oil at £16
I filled the filter as I always do ...... but didn't do all that bollox about cranking the engine over ...... did my engine blow up???????????
Did it fooooook!!
Quite what the ***** think they are doing by being complete pratts is beyond my mindset ................. but then, as Simon says in an earlier post, they think they have superior knowledge!!
Pete
14 October 2005, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by pslewis
ALi-B .... good post - your engine will blow up soon you know??
I changed my own Oil 3,000miles ago and used, SHOCK HORROR, Comma Oil at £16
I filled the filter as I always do ...... but didn't do all that bollox about cranking the engine over ...... did my engine blow up???????????
Did it fooooook!!
Quite what the ***** think they are doing by being complete pratts is beyond my mindset ................. but then, as Simon says in an earlier post, they think they have superior knowledge!!
Pete
I changed my own Oil 3,000miles ago and used, SHOCK HORROR, Comma Oil at £16
I filled the filter as I always do ...... but didn't do all that bollox about cranking the engine over ...... did my engine blow up???????????
Did it fooooook!!
Quite what the ***** think they are doing by being complete pratts is beyond my mindset ................. but then, as Simon says in an earlier post, they think they have superior knowledge!!
Pete
Rob
14 October 2005, 08:04 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by scoobfan
Your cars only done, what 60,000 miles, give it time !!
Rob
Rob
I'll live with it!!
Pete
14 October 2005, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by kammy
I just fill up the oil filter then screw it back on. And away I ago!!!!!!!!!!!!
14 October 2005, 08:07 PM
#28
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Originally Posted by Zen Performance
Last engine I changed the oil on, admittedly with an oil cooler fitted (so more capacity to prime) took about 1 minute of cranking to develop oil pressure. Would you like your engine to run for a minute with no oil flowing through it?
If the engine is started the pressure comes up MUCH faster than cranking!!
If you don't know that then I would suspect you shouldn't be let loose near car engines!!
Pete
14 October 2005, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by pslewis
OK, maybe at - what? - 200,000miles it might start burning a pint or two between services???
I'll live with it!!
Pete
I'll live with it!!
Pete
