Good on you Tony Blair - dont let them grind you down
14 September 2000, 09:27 PM
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Ok, Im ready for being flamed 
Firstly, William Hague is a bigger embarressment than Tony Blair, the man makes me cringe. The Tory party are not a magical solution to anything - in fact they have been a big cause of this countries problem.
Yes fuel is more expensive because it is taxed to high. But as someone has already said money for paying for stuff needs to come from somewhere. Ive seen some pretty lame complaints about how this goverment is "wasting money". Well I guess it must be wasting money on the NHS - but thats just fine by me - put another 5 pence on the litre - dont expect instant results, 15 years of waste cant be repaired for years. In general they arent spending as much money on stupid stuff - like handouts to those lazy b@stard that cant be bothered to get out of bed but can afford to go drinking on my taxes.
A car like the Scooby where the needle drops a quarter of tank everytime you look out the front window is not a car that uses fossil fuels sensibly. If people are worried about fuel costs they ought to think a little about what they drive. I drive a Scooby I and expect to pay for it - sacrifices will need to be made for me to do so.
The increasing heavy traffic on the roads dictates that something needs to be done. Building more roads isnt the answer, (to pre-empt any bright sparks), as England is a sufficiently small country (almost the same polulation as France with half the land mass) to make it near impossible to do much more other than building a few more bi-passes (well unless you buildose our cities etc - nice thought though). For that reason alone I would put another 10 pence on the litre, that way I could drive around in my Scooby with less traffic
Taxing the fuel will encourage other forms of traffic to become a viable solution. Currently they are not and no-one wants invest more money in public transport if there is belief that people are going to go around by car. If its cheaper to move goods by other form of transport than road then good ! not much fun if you are a trucker but it maybe worth seeing if there are jobs on the rails instead.
Petrol in Europe is cheaper, but then, like in France, you have road tolls. Great ?. They also have high taxations in Europe.
Cars are a luxury. Not long ago people would have one car per household. Now people have as many or sometimes more cars than there are people. During school holidays in the summer driving to work is a pleasure, but come school terms every mother has to drive their kids 1/2 - 1 mile to school. (Ive seen someone actually stop to let the kids out in front of school and drive 400 yards into their drive in a people carrier on a nice day !!!)
Then we have the farmers, or more importantly the idiots that have been protesting. Fuel for farming doesnt come under the same taxation as we do - its cheaper. One farmer with a supernova brain last night said "We need cheaper fuel, more specifically the goverment needs to reduce taxes on fuel". But his farming fuel hasnt got particularly high tax, so surely he should be asking the petrol companies to reduce there fuel costs as he will then get maximum amount of saving. Dooohhhhhhh
If farmers have a problem with their living it isnt because of fuel. If there living isnt drawing enough to pay for fuel for domestic uses then tough, join the rest of the country.
The master counter-argument to all that I have said, "ah yes but we cant all walk or use public transport. What about those people in the country ?" Everything is lifestyle choice. Fuel is a limited resource.
Christ I sound like a Green - arrrghhhh
The protestors have been the truckers and the farmers. Hopefully you've read my case that the truckers are trying to look after their jobs - they dont want stuff moving off the roads - BUT I DO, the farmers dont understand why they are protesting.
And the British public ? - well we all like something for nothing.
The goverment ? they havnt backed down - good I dont want some weak goverment. The French buckled, the Belgians havent.
Reading this BBS I cant see any like minded people so I guess I am alone - best put the flame suit on
bkar
(all this and I dont even like politics)
Firstly, William Hague is a bigger embarressment than Tony Blair, the man makes me cringe. The Tory party are not a magical solution to anything - in fact they have been a big cause of this countries problem.
Yes fuel is more expensive because it is taxed to high. But as someone has already said money for paying for stuff needs to come from somewhere. Ive seen some pretty lame complaints about how this goverment is "wasting money". Well I guess it must be wasting money on the NHS - but thats just fine by me - put another 5 pence on the litre - dont expect instant results, 15 years of waste cant be repaired for years. In general they arent spending as much money on stupid stuff - like handouts to those lazy b@stard that cant be bothered to get out of bed but can afford to go drinking on my taxes.
A car like the Scooby where the needle drops a quarter of tank everytime you look out the front window is not a car that uses fossil fuels sensibly. If people are worried about fuel costs they ought to think a little about what they drive. I drive a Scooby I and expect to pay for it - sacrifices will need to be made for me to do so.
The increasing heavy traffic on the roads dictates that something needs to be done. Building more roads isnt the answer, (to pre-empt any bright sparks), as England is a sufficiently small country (almost the same polulation as France with half the land mass) to make it near impossible to do much more other than building a few more bi-passes (well unless you buildose our cities etc - nice thought though). For that reason alone I would put another 10 pence on the litre, that way I could drive around in my Scooby with less traffic
Taxing the fuel will encourage other forms of traffic to become a viable solution. Currently they are not and no-one wants invest more money in public transport if there is belief that people are going to go around by car. If its cheaper to move goods by other form of transport than road then good ! not much fun if you are a trucker but it maybe worth seeing if there are jobs on the rails instead.
Petrol in Europe is cheaper, but then, like in France, you have road tolls. Great ?. They also have high taxations in Europe.
Cars are a luxury. Not long ago people would have one car per household. Now people have as many or sometimes more cars than there are people. During school holidays in the summer driving to work is a pleasure, but come school terms every mother has to drive their kids 1/2 - 1 mile to school. (Ive seen someone actually stop to let the kids out in front of school and drive 400 yards into their drive in a people carrier on a nice day !!!)
Then we have the farmers, or more importantly the idiots that have been protesting. Fuel for farming doesnt come under the same taxation as we do - its cheaper. One farmer with a supernova brain last night said "We need cheaper fuel, more specifically the goverment needs to reduce taxes on fuel". But his farming fuel hasnt got particularly high tax, so surely he should be asking the petrol companies to reduce there fuel costs as he will then get maximum amount of saving. Dooohhhhhhh
If farmers have a problem with their living it isnt because of fuel. If there living isnt drawing enough to pay for fuel for domestic uses then tough, join the rest of the country.
The master counter-argument to all that I have said, "ah yes but we cant all walk or use public transport. What about those people in the country ?" Everything is lifestyle choice. Fuel is a limited resource.
Christ I sound like a Green - arrrghhhh
The protestors have been the truckers and the farmers. Hopefully you've read my case that the truckers are trying to look after their jobs - they dont want stuff moving off the roads - BUT I DO, the farmers dont understand why they are protesting.
And the British public ? - well we all like something for nothing.
The goverment ? they havnt backed down - good I dont want some weak goverment. The French buckled, the Belgians havent.
Reading this BBS I cant see any like minded people so I guess I am alone - best put the flame suit on
bkar
(all this and I dont even like politics)
14 September 2000, 10:21 PM
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So,errm, could you elaborate on this masterplan of yours to get the entire countries freight distribution on to the railways? I hate to break this to ya, but I don't think my local Tescos is ever going to get it's deliveries from a steam train chugging down to Treadles Wharf, while the driver sings 'Time flies by etc...'
14 September 2000, 10:27 PM
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If public transpost was a viable solution, I [honestly] believe many more people would use it.
High fuel tax hits low income groups harder as the cost bears no relation to their ability to pay.
Tony Blair said repeatedly before the last election that he did not have any plans to increase tax, at all.
Since Labout came to power they have increased many indirect taxes and have recently announced multi-billion spending pledges. Little wonder that Labour have a reputation of being a tax and spend party.
I've never been convinced that throwing money at a problem solves it (the Millenium Dome is surely the biggest testament to that). Start again from scratch. Decide how things would be put together now working from a blank sheet of paper, and manage the transition to it. Don't do small fiddles in insignificnat areas that [appears to] achieve little.
I agree that much investment is needed in areas like public transport, developing other renewable energy resources and also in educating people out of their cars and onto their feet/bikes/trains.
People should NOT be taxed out of their cars until a viable alternative is in place.
Sorry for what appears to be a rant. But please realise that when a Government doesn't listen, the people (even a very small number) WILL make their voices heard [eventually!]
Craig.
High fuel tax hits low income groups harder as the cost bears no relation to their ability to pay.
Tony Blair said repeatedly before the last election that he did not have any plans to increase tax, at all.
Since Labout came to power they have increased many indirect taxes and have recently announced multi-billion spending pledges. Little wonder that Labour have a reputation of being a tax and spend party.
I've never been convinced that throwing money at a problem solves it (the Millenium Dome is surely the biggest testament to that). Start again from scratch. Decide how things would be put together now working from a blank sheet of paper, and manage the transition to it. Don't do small fiddles in insignificnat areas that [appears to] achieve little.
I agree that much investment is needed in areas like public transport, developing other renewable energy resources and also in educating people out of their cars and onto their feet/bikes/trains.
People should NOT be taxed out of their cars until a viable alternative is in place.
Sorry for what appears to be a rant. But please realise that when a Government doesn't listen, the people (even a very small number) WILL make their voices heard [eventually!]
Craig.
14 September 2000, 10:38 PM
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BKar
Firstly putting petrol up 10 pence would not stop people driving anyless and would hit people in rural area's which are more difficult to get too, and are commonly less well paid. The bus to my work would take me in excess of 1 and a 1/2 hours a jorney of slightly less than 10 miles, which i can do in 15 minutes by scooby or 45 minutes (theres a bitch of a hill) by bicycle. Although Red diesel maybe less taxed (sorry dont know all the details here) the produce still has to go from the farms and i dont think these vehicles use red. Secondly are you sure the moneys going to the NHS personally ive heard so many different places its going to i dont believe any of it any longer. But on a good note i totally agree and i think the vast majority of people (exclude lazy b@stards now) do with doing something about said lazy sods.
Thanks
Simon
Ps I also work a 10 hour day so adding 3 hour travel time to that equals me having no fun time
[This message has been edited by Mr.Cookie (edited 14 September 2000).]
Firstly putting petrol up 10 pence would not stop people driving anyless and would hit people in rural area's which are more difficult to get too, and are commonly less well paid. The bus to my work would take me in excess of 1 and a 1/2 hours a jorney of slightly less than 10 miles, which i can do in 15 minutes by scooby
or 45 minutes (theres a bitch of a hill) by bicycle. Although Red diesel maybe less taxed (sorry dont know all the details here) the produce still has to go from the farms and i dont think these vehicles use red. Secondly are you sure the moneys going to the NHS personally ive heard so many different places its going to i dont believe any of it any longer. But on a good note i totally agree and i think the vast majority of people (exclude lazy b@stards now) do with doing something about said lazy sods.Thanks
Simon
Ps I also work a 10 hour day so adding 3 hour travel time to that equals me having no fun time
[This message has been edited by Mr.Cookie (edited 14 September 2000).]
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14 September 2000, 11:00 PM
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A few points......
1.We've been paying higher and higher petrol taxes for some time.
2.The NHS waiting lists have not got any shorter.
3.Public transport has not got any better - as soon as large numbers of people start using it, it crumbles.
4.Huge amounts of money are spent on the Dome to keep it going and promote it - ever wondered how many senior Govt officials have private interests in the real estate surrounding the Dome ? Think about it.
5.The Govt. are manipulating the media.
6.The price of petrol goes UP after the blockades end - "That'll teach 'em to protest against us".
Maybe I'm just paranoid and need to watch the X-Files a bit less.
I hope these blockades and protests start up again, as we all know Blur isn't going to bring the tax down much if at all. We'll get a token 2p off at the Budget to appease the population, so the protesters don't get any public support, and we're back to square one.
Once again, Britain is the laughing stock of the world. The elected have complete contempt for the electorate. THIS MEANS YOU!
1.We've been paying higher and higher petrol taxes for some time.
2.The NHS waiting lists have not got any shorter.
3.Public transport has not got any better - as soon as large numbers of people start using it, it crumbles.
4.Huge amounts of money are spent on the Dome to keep it going and promote it - ever wondered how many senior Govt officials have private interests in the real estate surrounding the Dome ? Think about it.
5.The Govt. are manipulating the media.
6.The price of petrol goes UP after the blockades end - "That'll teach 'em to protest against us".
Maybe I'm just paranoid and need to watch the X-Files a bit less.
I hope these blockades and protests start up again, as we all know Blur isn't going to bring the tax down much if at all. We'll get a token 2p off at the Budget to appease the population, so the protesters don't get any public support, and we're back to square one.
Once again, Britain is the laughing stock of the world. The elected have complete contempt for the electorate. THIS MEANS YOU!
14 September 2000, 11:02 PM
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If the bl00dy socialist government would stop giving money to all those lazy little ***** who keep trying to steal our cars, they'd save a fortune. Far too many lazy buggers who are fit and healthy but can't be bothered to look for work. 
14 September 2000, 11:15 PM
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What a load of Cobblers!
Tax burden has increased enormously!
Spending has increased enormously!
NHS waiting lists have increased enormously!
(not the massaged figures)
Class sizes are going up more than they are coming down!
Hundreds of BILLIONS poured down the 'Black Hole of Grenwich'!
The Goverment admits that it's awash with cash, but they're not going to spend it until they think it's close enough to the election to have an effect on voters.
As I understand it, the Government could actually reduce fuel duty by about 8p without making a dent in their coffers, yet people are asking for 2-3p, and they tell us to **** off. They are arrogant and out of touch.
Regardless of anythingelse, they inherited a healthy economy, which they seem to be trying to f*ck up!
Complaining about fuel duties is something we should all be doing. No matter what we drive. The levels are grossly unfair, and penalise those who need a car most and/or can least afford it. If they are that short of money, stick the difference on income tax.
One of the petrol company reps summed it up the other day when, in response to Blair's 'back to normal in 24 hours' remark, the guy stated that it was likely to take longer because 'unlike the cabinet, we can't walk on water'!
Tax burden has increased enormously!
Spending has increased enormously!
NHS waiting lists have increased enormously!
(not the massaged figures)
Class sizes are going up more than they are coming down!
Hundreds of BILLIONS poured down the 'Black Hole of Grenwich'!
The Goverment admits that it's awash with cash, but they're not going to spend it until they think it's close enough to the election to have an effect on voters.
As I understand it, the Government could actually reduce fuel duty by about 8p without making a dent in their coffers, yet people are asking for 2-3p, and they tell us to **** off. They are arrogant and out of touch.
Regardless of anythingelse, they inherited a healthy economy, which they seem to be trying to f*ck up!
Complaining about fuel duties is something we should all be doing. No matter what we drive. The levels are grossly unfair, and penalise those who need a car most and/or can least afford it. If they are that short of money, stick the difference on income tax.
One of the petrol company reps summed it up the other day when, in response to Blair's 'back to normal in 24 hours' remark, the guy stated that it was likely to take longer because 'unlike the cabinet, we can't walk on water'!
14 September 2000, 11:15 PM
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Some interesting points there BKar.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>During school holidays in the summer driving to work is a pleasure, but come school terms every mother has to drive their kids 1/2 - 1 mile to school. (Ive seen someone actually stop to let the kids out in front of school and drive 400 yards into their drive in a people carrier on a nice day !!!)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Damn right - make them all walk. I'm not a parent so I'm not sure on this, but don't parents get some choice where they send their kids? If so, then the Government has created their own traffic problem. Our office is on the same road as two schools – come 3.30pm you can’t move for mums and cars.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Taxing the fuel will encourage other forms of traffic to become a viable solution.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmmm, the government already tax the pants off fuel and have done so for some time. Do we see improving railways? Erm, no. I quite often travel to London on the train. Virgin have jacked up the train fares to stupid levels – a standard return leaving early in the morning is 124 quid !!!! If two of us go, we can drive down and spend the night in a 4 star hotel in Central London for less than the tickets alone. It’s only recently Virgin have run a train after 8pm back to Stoke-on-Trent – before that you couldn’t work very late at all.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR> If its cheaper to move goods by other form of transport than road then good!
not much fun if you are a trucker but it maybe worth seeing if there are jobs on the rails instead.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The truckers main gripe seems to be that their European competitors can run a truck for about 50% of the cost of a truck in this country. If our country is to be competitive in Europe, then the Government needs to provide a level playing field for our “team”.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR> Yes fuel is more expensive because it is taxed to high. But as someone has already said money for paying for stuff needs to come from somewhere. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Fine, tax is something we all have to pay. The Government are saying so many pence of fuel duty means a billion pounds less for the NHS or schools. They seem to forget they just got over <I>twenty five billion pounds</I> from the sale of the 3G mobile licenses and have more to come from the sale of some other wireless licenses. Had they budgeted for that? No – the auction was only expected to break a few million.
We will need to revisit this thread after the next budget and election. All the media talk about Gordon Brown building up a war chest of money to chuck at tax cuts just before Labour need re-electing. They could do it now but it’s better for them to do it when they need the votes.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR> Petrol in Europe is cheaper, but then, like in France, you have road tolls. Great ?. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I believe the new Birmingham relief road will be a toll road. Many councils are looking at charging drivers tolls to enter cities.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Cars are a luxury<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Cars let my company run a business and therefore let our staff earn their living. Our customers aren’t going to like us if we say, “Yes we’ll be out to fix your server which is stopping your staff from working and thus loosing you ££££ but the next number 23 bus isn’t for an hour and then takes 50 mins to get to you”.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR> The master counter-argument to all that I have said, "ah yes but we cant all walk or use public transport. What about those people in the country ?" Everything is lifestyle choice. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What about old folks living in the country? Perhaps they can’t afford to move into a city? They may have lived in the country all their life’s – nothing lifestyle about that. However, if people move into the middle of the boonies and then complain, I’m with you Bkar.
Chris.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>During school holidays in the summer driving to work is a pleasure, but come school terms every mother has to drive their kids 1/2 - 1 mile to school. (Ive seen someone actually stop to let the kids out in front of school and drive 400 yards into their drive in a people carrier on a nice day !!!)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Damn right - make them all walk. I'm not a parent so I'm not sure on this, but don't parents get some choice where they send their kids? If so, then the Government has created their own traffic problem. Our office is on the same road as two schools – come 3.30pm you can’t move for mums and cars.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Taxing the fuel will encourage other forms of traffic to become a viable solution.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmmm, the government already tax the pants off fuel and have done so for some time. Do we see improving railways? Erm, no. I quite often travel to London on the train. Virgin have jacked up the train fares to stupid levels – a standard return leaving early in the morning is 124 quid !!!! If two of us go, we can drive down and spend the night in a 4 star hotel in Central London for less than the tickets alone. It’s only recently Virgin have run a train after 8pm back to Stoke-on-Trent – before that you couldn’t work very late at all.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR> If its cheaper to move goods by other form of transport than road then good!
not much fun if you are a trucker but it maybe worth seeing if there are jobs on the rails instead.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The truckers main gripe seems to be that their European competitors can run a truck for about 50% of the cost of a truck in this country. If our country is to be competitive in Europe, then the Government needs to provide a level playing field for our “team”.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR> Yes fuel is more expensive because it is taxed to high. But as someone has already said money for paying for stuff needs to come from somewhere. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Fine, tax is something we all have to pay. The Government are saying so many pence of fuel duty means a billion pounds less for the NHS or schools. They seem to forget they just got over <I>twenty five billion pounds</I> from the sale of the 3G mobile licenses and have more to come from the sale of some other wireless licenses. Had they budgeted for that? No – the auction was only expected to break a few million.
We will need to revisit this thread after the next budget and election. All the media talk about Gordon Brown building up a war chest of money to chuck at tax cuts just before Labour need re-electing. They could do it now but it’s better for them to do it when they need the votes.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR> Petrol in Europe is cheaper, but then, like in France, you have road tolls. Great ?. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I believe the new Birmingham relief road will be a toll road. Many councils are looking at charging drivers tolls to enter cities.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Cars are a luxury<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Cars let my company run a business and therefore let our staff earn their living. Our customers aren’t going to like us if we say, “Yes we’ll be out to fix your server which is stopping your staff from working and thus loosing you ££££ but the next number 23 bus isn’t for an hour and then takes 50 mins to get to you”.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR> The master counter-argument to all that I have said, "ah yes but we cant all walk or use public transport. What about those people in the country ?" Everything is lifestyle choice. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What about old folks living in the country? Perhaps they can’t afford to move into a city? They may have lived in the country all their life’s – nothing lifestyle about that. However, if people move into the middle of the boonies and then complain, I’m with you Bkar.
Chris.
14 September 2000, 11:24 PM
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Oh, I forgot; we pay £150 road tax a year, to drive on falling apart congested roads;the French don't pay road tax but have tolls on excellent motorways, with light traffic. I know which one I'd prefer.
14 September 2000, 11:26 PM
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Just to go back to one of the original points made..."cars are a luxury"!!! I would just like to point out that owners of luxury pleasure boats (e.g. take a "Gin Palace" costing £250k upwards) which will do about 1 mile to the gallon when crusing or only 0.5 miles every gallon when really motoring it, then he presently has the "luxury" of filling it up with very lowly taxed pink diesel? How comes this has gone on for many years unnoticed, or is that the politians would feel the pain too much?
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
15 September 2000, 12:01 AM
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I think you'll find that earnings taken back to another country are usually hedged so to speak - so generally companies lock currencies in. The Euro is skewing the usual balance between interest rates, exchange rates and taxation, but this is an aberration that will iron out. Therefore I doubt any real-world company locates to another country to take advantage of an exchange rate - it just doesn't work like that.
The problem with the fuel tax is that once we all know what the oil companies charge, which is something like 20p a litre, and we all know that tax and duty etc add up to approx. 60p a litre, we all begin to question it. However, the UK does have a very reasonable tax situation in comparison to most other major european countries, we also appear to have an ever increasing cost of living, especially in South East. Tony is only doing what has been done for many years, getting what he can from fuel and using the ploy of green-politics to justify it in some part.
Having come into London all week, the change in traffic levels has been amazing, and while I gave up riding a bicycle a few years ago after a few near misses, I would be keen to get back on and cycle the 7 miles each way if we could guarantee safety away from cars, and if we could get showers and facilities at all work places. By doing this alone we could take the emphasis off the car for short journeys which seems to be a major issue. However, if this cust petrol consumption then we'll end up paying a bicycle tax or somesuch as the exchequer searches for money.
Nobody wants to pay £4 a gallon or more, but we've got to pay for the services we all use at some point in our lives somehow. The real objection is that the government seem to have forgotten that they represent the general population, they are too busyredecorating their apartments, using grace-and-favour pied a terres, and flying around the world for the so called betterment of the UK.
The labour party of 2000 bear no striking difference to many Tory parties of old - at least the tories admitted greed their driving force
The problem with the fuel tax is that once we all know what the oil companies charge, which is something like 20p a litre, and we all know that tax and duty etc add up to approx. 60p a litre, we all begin to question it. However, the UK does have a very reasonable tax situation in comparison to most other major european countries, we also appear to have an ever increasing cost of living, especially in South East. Tony is only doing what has been done for many years, getting what he can from fuel and using the ploy of green-politics to justify it in some part.
Having come into London all week, the change in traffic levels has been amazing, and while I gave up riding a bicycle a few years ago after a few near misses, I would be keen to get back on and cycle the 7 miles each way if we could guarantee safety away from cars, and if we could get showers and facilities at all work places. By doing this alone we could take the emphasis off the car for short journeys which seems to be a major issue. However, if this cust petrol consumption then we'll end up paying a bicycle tax or somesuch as the exchequer searches for money.
Nobody wants to pay £4 a gallon or more, but we've got to pay for the services we all use at some point in our lives somehow. The real objection is that the government seem to have forgotten that they represent the general population, they are too busyredecorating their apartments, using grace-and-favour pied a terres, and flying around the world for the so called betterment of the UK.
The labour party of 2000 bear no striking difference to many Tory parties of old - at least the tories admitted greed their driving force
15 September 2000, 12:30 AM
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Where is all this taxation money going
I drive 100 miles a day to work and back, in a Subaru this costs me 5 gallons a day which works out at £450 a month on petrol just to get to work and back - Public transport is a no hoper - It would involve me driving 12 miles to the station - 4 hours a day on the train and a taxi at the other end.
Because of Income Tax and NI I have to earn £8000 a year simply to pay for my petrol, of this £8000 only £1200 actually goes to the petrol companies/retailers!!
I led an expedition of school children to Belize for a charitable institution during the summer - I got attacked by some bug that has borrowed into my skull - causing horrendous headaches, continually bleeding from my skull etc (not very pleasant) - I can't even get an NHS consultant to look at it for another 2 weeks, with an operation at least 4 weeks away - because I cannot work with this problem I have had to go private and will be having an operation on Monday (The consultant says it is imperative that the bug is removed asap) that will cost me almost £1000.
So Blair can p*ss off telling me that my £5000 a year on Fuel Tax is paying for the Bl**dy National Health to treat me!!
I drive 100 miles a day to work and back, in a Subaru this costs me 5 gallons a day which works out at £450 a month on petrol just to get to work and back - Public transport is a no hoper - It would involve me driving 12 miles to the station - 4 hours a day on the train and a taxi at the other end.
Because of Income Tax and NI I have to earn £8000 a year simply to pay for my petrol, of this £8000 only £1200 actually goes to the petrol companies/retailers!!
I led an expedition of school children to Belize for a charitable institution during the summer - I got attacked by some bug that has borrowed into my skull - causing horrendous headaches, continually bleeding from my skull etc (not very pleasant) - I can't even get an NHS consultant to look at it for another 2 weeks, with an operation at least 4 weeks away - because I cannot work with this problem I have had to go private and will be having an operation on Monday (The consultant says it is imperative that the bug is removed asap) that will cost me almost £1000.
So Blair can p*ss off telling me that my £5000 a year on Fuel Tax is paying for the Bl**dy National Health to treat me!!
15 September 2000, 12:33 AM
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As someone mentioned before I think anyone congratulating blair on his handling of this situation must be on drugs, an environmentalist or wants to see society back in the middle ages. He couldn't have done any worse - his words inflamed the situation dramatically.
The problem with socialist governments is that they burden the economy with high taxation and vast bureaucracy - It's not so much tax and spend as tax and squander - value for money goes out the window. The EU seems to be working on this basis too - I know what we'll do to make our economy more competitive - we'll tax transport and comunications very highly - that'll make it easy to run a business. To help a bit more we'll make sure small businesses in particular have to abide by rules and regulations so complex that they have no hope of ever knowingly abiding by them and still making a profit.
The standout entrepreneurial economies like the U.S. and Hong Kong make it very easy to start up a business, and key services like transport and communications are very cheap - therefore more businesses are started there and they find it easier to become established.
The latest noises from the EU with talk of a telephone tax on landlines and mobiles of £30 a year is absolutely insane. They only want this money to squander on useless projects so they can get more back handers from their mates in industry. Even when corruption is proven they refuse to resign.
Getting back to the point
Unfortunately our Lionel is so busy sucking up to his mates in europe and trying to be bill clinton that he has no time to listen to the electorate any more. His arrogance and lack of any remote understanding of public opinion beggars belief. It just goes to show what a case of the emperor's new clothes this government has - no one told blair how out of touch he was. Hopefully this sort of stupidity will be their undoing. It's not as if the conservatives are mounting much of an opposition these days but it looks like the blair machine may self destruct after one term in office.
It appears that they now even lie to themselves nevermind the public.
I hope people remember that when it counts the 'listening government' is in fact stone deaf.
The problem with socialist governments is that they burden the economy with high taxation and vast bureaucracy - It's not so much tax and spend as tax and squander - value for money goes out the window. The EU seems to be working on this basis too - I know what we'll do to make our economy more competitive - we'll tax transport and comunications very highly - that'll make it easy to run a business. To help a bit more we'll make sure small businesses in particular have to abide by rules and regulations so complex that they have no hope of ever knowingly abiding by them and still making a profit.
The standout entrepreneurial economies like the U.S. and Hong Kong make it very easy to start up a business, and key services like transport and communications are very cheap - therefore more businesses are started there and they find it easier to become established.
The latest noises from the EU with talk of a telephone tax on landlines and mobiles of £30 a year is absolutely insane. They only want this money to squander on useless projects so they can get more back handers from their mates in industry. Even when corruption is proven they refuse to resign.
Getting back to the point
Unfortunately our Lionel is so busy sucking up to his mates in europe and trying to be bill clinton that he has no time to listen to the electorate any more. His arrogance and lack of any remote understanding of public opinion beggars belief. It just goes to show what a case of the emperor's new clothes this government has - no one told blair how out of touch he was. Hopefully this sort of stupidity will be their undoing. It's not as if the conservatives are mounting much of an opposition these days but it looks like the blair machine may self destruct after one term in office.
It appears that they now even lie to themselves nevermind the public.
I hope people remember that when it counts the 'listening government' is in fact stone deaf.
15 September 2000, 07:56 AM
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I for one would like to see the Govts. 'statement of accounts' or whatever its called. I'd like to see the total money collected in taxes and other revenues, and the total outgoings on NHS, education etc.
However, I don't believe any stats anymore, so it would probably be a waste of time.
In answer to bkar's comments above, I don't personally believe an oil company could be so naive as to increase prices during a crisis and expect to get away with it. I think the Govt asked Esso to increase prices just so the Govt. could be seen to force them down again. Its either that, or aliens.
I saw Jack Straw on the TV this morning, and he is STILL blaming this whole problem on the Tories, the Crude Oil prices and God knows what else. He just kept harping on about how great the Police were ?!??!?!!
The Police didn't end the protest, the protesters did - there was no violence and almost no arrests. Great job Guys!!!!
The sooner these clowns are out, the better.
[This message has been edited by TonyNesta (edited 15 September 2000).]
However, I don't believe any stats anymore, so it would probably be a waste of time.
In answer to bkar's comments above, I don't personally believe an oil company could be so naive as to increase prices during a crisis and expect to get away with it. I think the Govt asked Esso to increase prices just so the Govt. could be seen to force them down again. Its either that, or aliens.
I saw Jack Straw on the TV this morning, and he is STILL blaming this whole problem on the Tories, the Crude Oil prices and God knows what else. He just kept harping on about how great the Police were ?!??!?!!
The Police didn't end the protest, the protesters did - there was no violence and almost no arrests. Great job Guys!!!!
The sooner these clowns are out, the better.
[This message has been edited by TonyNesta (edited 15 September 2000).]
15 September 2000, 08:11 AM
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I agree the cash has to come from somewhere - but that's only 'cos so much is wasted. They waste so much money on bull5hit causes it's untrue.
Easiest way I reckon is to have a staggered road tax. I know owners of larger cars already pay more in fuel tax, but they should also pay more for the size of the car. Why should a Discovery/Range Rover/ & series etc owner pay the same road tax as our Lupo. That's boll0x.
Fuel in line with Europe would be a good starting point. So would motorway tolls.
Easiest way I reckon is to have a staggered road tax. I know owners of larger cars already pay more in fuel tax, but they should also pay more for the size of the car. Why should a Discovery/Range Rover/ & series etc owner pay the same road tax as our Lupo. That's boll0x.
Fuel in line with Europe would be a good starting point. So would motorway tolls.
15 September 2000, 08:32 AM
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Bright Kar,
Couldn't agree with you more - we all want improved services and don't want to pay for them through direct taxes. So how else are the bills to be met?
A lot of mention has been made of the income from the digital phone licenses - I believe much of this went to paying off the National Debt, which means at least our taxes won't be going in such high interest payments to the banks.
When you look at the cost of living in the UK versus that of other European countries, you'll see that it's about the same. Some things cost more in one country, some cost more in another. We pay a fortune for houses, so should we barricade the estate agencies? Can't see it!
Where I do have a problem is with truckers (who are getting shafted by French/Belgian operators) and their lack of competitiveness. Perhaps some form of road tax should be brought in for foreign trucks?
I have no sympathy at all for the farmers - as stated by all, they use red diesel for all on-farm activity, and this has almost no tax applied to it.
Couldn't agree with you more - we all want improved services and don't want to pay for them through direct taxes. So how else are the bills to be met?
A lot of mention has been made of the income from the digital phone licenses - I believe much of this went to paying off the National Debt, which means at least our taxes won't be going in such high interest payments to the banks.
When you look at the cost of living in the UK versus that of other European countries, you'll see that it's about the same. Some things cost more in one country, some cost more in another. We pay a fortune for houses, so should we barricade the estate agencies? Can't see it!
Where I do have a problem is with truckers (who are getting shafted by French/Belgian operators) and their lack of competitiveness. Perhaps some form of road tax should be brought in for foreign trucks?
I have no sympathy at all for the farmers - as stated by all, they use red diesel for all on-farm activity, and this has almost no tax applied to it.
15 September 2000, 08:51 AM
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Are we missing the real point here? What is/should be the remit of Government? Surely it is to provide the best environment for GB plc so that the population of GB maintains the highest quality infrastructure (NHS/roads/public transport etc.).
So why all this confrontation!!!! Blair should be working for us!!!! We all know that petrol is (relatively) cheap (cf cost in USA) and that it is a basic requirement for most business/emergency services (and social)etc.(cf from current chaos).
If you've gotta raise money by taxation (which you have) why go overboard on such a basic necessity. If taxes are being specifically increased for environmental concerns/reasons then I, for one, would like to see some evidence of the monies raised addressing this problem!!!. Perhaps persuading other countries/continents (USA) to 'join in' might achieve something more positive else GB is just 'p*ss*ng in the wind'(and going down the plug hole!).
The road haulage companies are (obviously) desperate. This has been an issue for a long time.
Are cars a luxury? Of course they are. In practise one just needs food, clothing and shelter... all else is is luxury (ask Africa). That's why we work and pay taxes isn't it?
I just feel that the current political attitude of 'we know best you're just morons' (typified by 'Tone', 'two jags' and Brown (one eye sees inflation rate for pensions whereas 'magnifying' glass eye sees inflation rate for fuel!! i.e. x 3)is not what I expect from Government.
Cheers
Dieter
So why all this confrontation!!!! Blair should be working for us!!!! We all know that petrol is (relatively) cheap (cf cost in USA) and that it is a basic requirement for most business/emergency services (and social)etc.(cf from current chaos).
If you've gotta raise money by taxation (which you have) why go overboard on such a basic necessity. If taxes are being specifically increased for environmental concerns/reasons then I, for one, would like to see some evidence of the monies raised addressing this problem!!!. Perhaps persuading other countries/continents (USA) to 'join in' might achieve something more positive else GB is just 'p*ss*ng in the wind'(and going down the plug hole!).
The road haulage companies are (obviously) desperate. This has been an issue for a long time.
Are cars a luxury? Of course they are. In practise one just needs food, clothing and shelter... all else is is luxury (ask Africa). That's why we work and pay taxes isn't it?
I just feel that the current political attitude of 'we know best you're just morons' (typified by 'Tone', 'two jags' and Brown (one eye sees inflation rate for pensions whereas 'magnifying' glass eye sees inflation rate for fuel!! i.e. x 3)is not what I expect from Government.
Cheers
Dieter
15 September 2000, 09:04 AM
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BK, where are you getting your figures from?
Petrol cos increasing by 20p, and on top of that taxes!?
They get less than 20p a litre now!!!!!!!
I agree with motorway tolls, they work in france for example.
Public transport, if they want this to work better, they need to get the 95% (this is the latest reported figure) of the police that are not in uniform on the streets. I wont use public transport as much due to fear. Im not afraid to admit that I dont much fancy my odds of holding off 5-6 youths intent on giving me a kicking to get my cash. We had someone killed not far from my house, if he was in a safe car he would have been ok.
Lifestyle choice, maybe, but he would be alive as we speak now (probably)
Our roads better
look again. After visting europe last year, I thought there was something wrong with my car as I drove off the boat!
A study looked at the price of fuel found that it would need to be increased about 200% to have a 20% reduction in usage. Now whos that going to be who stops using it? The poorest, and likely most needy people.
Yes farmers use red fuel, but again people miss the point. Look at the cost of farm goods as they leave the farm, its peanuts, its the hauliers costs etc that push the price up to many times the farms cost, and most of that is helped along by fuel prices.
Road tax should be collected based on usage. The easiest way, a set rate on fuel. No one can not pay that, and the more you use the roads the more you pay, simple?
The cars per household thing needs to be thought out better as well. Its now much less common to live near to where you work, due to the changes in how people are employd in the economy (not peoples choice I hasten to add). Young people now generally dont move out of home so quick, so that also increases the more than 1 car families. When we used to have 3 cars in our house we all worked in a different town, so according to you we should have 1 car? Maybe a 200 mile round trip twice a day would help things?
robski
p.s. its not personal, but Im getting more and more pissed with people who dont think it through, and just quote statistics and hype(read spin).
Petrol cos increasing by 20p, and on top of that taxes!?
They get less than 20p a litre now!!!!!!!
I agree with motorway tolls, they work in france for example.
Public transport, if they want this to work better, they need to get the 95% (this is the latest reported figure) of the police that are not in uniform on the streets. I wont use public transport as much due to fear. Im not afraid to admit that I dont much fancy my odds of holding off 5-6 youths intent on giving me a kicking to get my cash. We had someone killed not far from my house, if he was in a safe car he would have been ok.
Lifestyle choice, maybe, but he would be alive as we speak now (probably)
Our roads better
look again. After visting europe last year, I thought there was something wrong with my car as I drove off the boat!A study looked at the price of fuel found that it would need to be increased about 200% to have a 20% reduction in usage. Now whos that going to be who stops using it? The poorest, and likely most needy people.
Yes farmers use red fuel, but again people miss the point. Look at the cost of farm goods as they leave the farm, its peanuts, its the hauliers costs etc that push the price up to many times the farms cost, and most of that is helped along by fuel prices.
Road tax should be collected based on usage. The easiest way, a set rate on fuel. No one can not pay that, and the more you use the roads the more you pay, simple?
The cars per household thing needs to be thought out better as well. Its now much less common to live near to where you work, due to the changes in how people are employd in the economy (not peoples choice I hasten to add). Young people now generally dont move out of home so quick, so that also increases the more than 1 car families. When we used to have 3 cars in our house we all worked in a different town, so according to you we should have 1 car? Maybe a 200 mile round trip twice a day would help things?
robski
p.s. its not personal, but Im getting more and more pissed with people who dont think it through, and just quote statistics and hype(read spin).
15 September 2000, 09:24 AM
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My point on tax
1 Unless you live in a city and work 9-5 forget public transport, its a joke. "Sorry I cant stay to fix the server, ill miss my bus and there arent any after 7 o'Clock"
2 Too much freight goes by road
3 The NHS wastes millions because of poor management while the grass roots doctors/nurses suffer.
4 The School run is a mojor issue (remember those carefree days of summer before the holidays ended!), this comes down to concerns over crime and (Beleive it or not road satfey) Schools are surrounded by traffic chaos and the parents cause it! its a viscous circle (Yes you may have noticed I dont have kids)
I dont mind paying tax if I think it is being well spent, I can choose where I spend my money and pick the best suppliers. I cant do that with the tax and the suppliers are all badly run.
I want to emigrate.
1 Unless you live in a city and work 9-5 forget public transport, its a joke. "Sorry I cant stay to fix the server, ill miss my bus and there arent any after 7 o'Clock"
2 Too much freight goes by road
3 The NHS wastes millions because of poor management while the grass roots doctors/nurses suffer.
4 The School run is a mojor issue (remember those carefree days of summer before the holidays ended!), this comes down to concerns over crime and (Beleive it or not road satfey) Schools are surrounded by traffic chaos and the parents cause it! its a viscous circle (Yes you may have noticed I dont have kids)
I dont mind paying tax if I think it is being well spent, I can choose where I spend my money and pick the best suppliers. I cant do that with the tax and the suppliers are all badly run.
I want to emigrate.
15 September 2000, 09:32 AM
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An interesting thread and some good points on all sides.
Blair could have made a concession that I think would have appeased the public and industry... scrap Road Fund License.
This would reduce the current cost of car ownership (but not the use) so helping Britain's car industry, but more importantly it would reduce the massive tax burden on the road haulage companies. This would lead to lower prices in the shops and prevent the migration of haulage companies (and jobs) to Northern Europe.
I realise that tax revenue has to come from somewhere, but as it stands at the moment, a worker earning £10,000 pa and driving 10,000 miles per annum pays more motor related tax than income tax. This, Bright Kar, does not fit with your justification of the current tax system.
Saying that additional fuel revenue is being spent on a better health service is just political posturing. I recently tripped and hurt my leg muscles. I went to my doctor who rang the A&E dept for me to collect some crutches. I had to wait 4 hours for them. The tax burden has increased massively, but nothing has improved. Oh... the previously acceptable waiting area was in the process of being enlarged and completely refurbished. Why not spend the money on hospital staff/treatment areas, instead of bigger waiting rooms?
As for moving goods by rail, yes it is cheaper. It is also slower (for the overall journey), requires huge sidings and storage yards and still requires motor vehicle transport from the sidings to the point of distribution. It is traffic in towns that is the biggest social problem, not non rush hour motorway traffic.
The opposition parties need to do a lot of work to be electable, but this government has been caught with its hand in the till and should be dispensed with as soon as possible. We all moaned about Maggie Thatcher and John Major, but their policies were good for business and that was proven to be good for Britain. If the country hadn't been doing so well, Blair would not have got a look in.
Taxing the motorist is taxing the peoples freedom of movement.
Oh... and where did all the extra tax revenue from IR35 go?
Blair could have made a concession that I think would have appeased the public and industry... scrap Road Fund License.
This would reduce the current cost of car ownership (but not the use) so helping Britain's car industry, but more importantly it would reduce the massive tax burden on the road haulage companies. This would lead to lower prices in the shops and prevent the migration of haulage companies (and jobs) to Northern Europe.
I realise that tax revenue has to come from somewhere, but as it stands at the moment, a worker earning £10,000 pa and driving 10,000 miles per annum pays more motor related tax than income tax. This, Bright Kar, does not fit with your justification of the current tax system.
Saying that additional fuel revenue is being spent on a better health service is just political posturing. I recently tripped and hurt my leg muscles. I went to my doctor who rang the A&E dept for me to collect some crutches. I had to wait 4 hours for them. The tax burden has increased massively, but nothing has improved. Oh... the previously acceptable waiting area was in the process of being enlarged and completely refurbished. Why not spend the money on hospital staff/treatment areas, instead of bigger waiting rooms?
As for moving goods by rail, yes it is cheaper. It is also slower (for the overall journey), requires huge sidings and storage yards and still requires motor vehicle transport from the sidings to the point of distribution. It is traffic in towns that is the biggest social problem, not non rush hour motorway traffic.
The opposition parties need to do a lot of work to be electable, but this government has been caught with its hand in the till and should be dispensed with as soon as possible. We all moaned about Maggie Thatcher and John Major, but their policies were good for business and that was proven to be good for Britain. If the country hadn't been doing so well, Blair would not have got a look in.
Taxing the motorist is taxing the peoples freedom of movement.
Oh... and where did all the extra tax revenue from IR35 go?
15 September 2000, 10:28 AM
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It just seems that everybody wants to pay no tax! Overall tqxation in the UK is roughly the same as other EU countries, and is by no means the highest. It's just that we pay more fuel tax than any other EU country. Income tax is generally lower here.
As for petrol tax hitting the low earner, well so does any other form of pricing or taxation, but nobody seems to moan about that. It is unfortunate, but that's life. You do not get means tested every time you go to Tesco do you?
Imagine the scene:
"ah, Mr Lowincome, that will be 32p for a pint of skimmed please. Mr Highincome, 74p thankyou". It just isn't realistic. Goods cannot and should not be related to ability to pay, that is why you don't get special poor people deals on Ferraris!
Geezer
As for petrol tax hitting the low earner, well so does any other form of pricing or taxation, but nobody seems to moan about that. It is unfortunate, but that's life. You do not get means tested every time you go to Tesco do you?
Imagine the scene:
"ah, Mr Lowincome, that will be 32p for a pint of skimmed please. Mr Highincome, 74p thankyou". It just isn't realistic. Goods cannot and should not be related to ability to pay, that is why you don't get special poor people deals on Ferraris!
Geezer
15 September 2000, 10:52 AM
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BK,
Really, which one is it?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>KF - Cars are a luxury - When I moved to my road<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Or..
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Yes, cars can be a necessasity (sic), but if you <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Really, which one is it?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>KF - Cars are a luxury - When I moved to my road<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Or..
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Yes, cars can be a necessasity (sic), but if you <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>