adamson

Geezer,

I think your missing the point. Who said that they didn't want to pay tax at all?

People will accept a tax system that is fair and just. Fuel tax is not just!

Craig.

robski

Jonathan,

I think you will find the more major reasons are:

- British cos only thought britain, not europe, so they become easier take over targets. The french cos move over here first to learn the lie of the land so to speak

- Our labour relations are that much more stable than france (usually!)

- Our economy is doing much better than europe at the moment

- Profits earnt over here are worth that much more in France due to the strong pound,
once converted back to Euros


Profits over here will be taxed yes, and what do you think happens when the funds are sent back to France? the french government will say, "so you earnt them abroad? OK will will not take any tax for them"


robski

Bright Kar

Im a gluton for punishment - I've had to replace the flame-suit to an industrial one.

KF - Cars are a luxury - When I moved to my road 7 years ago you could easily drive down it. Now there is at least 2 cars per house and some houses have 4. Its a nice area with plenty of driveway parking but things have got to the stage where cars are on the road. Three weeks ago the dustman couldnt empty the bins due to the own road parking. Would have been interesting if it were a fire-engine. The point is people are using cars when previously they didnt NEED too. Yes, cars can be a necessasity, but if you take out the 1/3 of the people that actually dont need to drive the roads would be a hell of a lot emptier. The situation of making car driving prehibitily expenses for the people that need them is a problem.

Popeye - Roads are needed for local distribution - cant be helped. But long haul we could take plenty of freight off our roads.

Adamson - I believe the Millenium Dome was something the Tories started and Labour had to continue with when they got into power. The main thing though is that the tax payers contributed minimally as most of the funding came elsewhere.

AndyMC - Yes we maybe at 1% but the problem is where you need more roads you often cant build them. In my area, as many others, you would need to start demolishing plenty of houses before you could make things any better, yet the traffic is getting worse not better. PS income tax 23% and it dont take must for it to be 40%.

Mr Cookie - The problem is car use has rendered all other forms of transport uneconomic. Bus, Train and Tram companies are starting to invest into their industries because they believe Labour is trying to encourage other forms of transport. When the trends starts changing these services will get better - its a chicken and egg thing. The principle of private transports isnt WRONG or BAD its just currently it doesnt work. I hate buses and trains but make them affordable and reliable and you will get me on one. Agreed that for many commuters it wont work even when they are improved but it can get a lot of people out of cars (especially those lazy mums ).

TonyNesta - For the items I havent responded to earlier, WHO JUST JACKED THE PRICES UP ?. The Petrol companies. If you like conspiracy theories how about this: Farmers who dont have any reason to gripe their fuel taxes given they are on red diesel, are leading protests with truckers to get the goverment to cut their taxes (they dont want petrol companies to cut taxes even though this would give them the greater savings). The oil companies stop sending fuel. They keep this up even when there is NOTHING stopping the regular shipment as the police are keeping the routes clear. Hence there is no reason to stop shipments. The goverment doesnt give, so they RAISE the price of fuel. WOW. CRUDE OIL COSTS ARE ESTIMATED TO BE 50% LOWER THAN LAST YEAR DUE TO NEW FOUND RESERVES, BUT THE OIL COMPANIES WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO REDUCE TAXS RATHER THAN REDUCE THEIR PRICES. They have been applying pressure to effect this. Anyway, this is one of the consiperacy theories and is probably X-Files stuff.

Tyson - Lets had a new BLUE fuel and boats a taxes that 400%. That will sort the rich b*stards out. (PS you'd be lucky to get anything for 250k - try 1 M+)

TonyNesta - I cant agree with your description of our roads I think they are pretty good. In fact, I think they are better than most of Europe. But if you really want to feel superior, go to the US. Sure there are plenty of roads down there but boys are they cr@p - we wouldnt allow roads of that condition here, and this is the afluent states like CA, FL, MA, etc.

There recent campaign to reduce the tax was interesting but naive. The petrol companies over the last 18 months increased petrol cost by 20p on top of which is the taxes. You cant just dynamically reduce taxes all the time !

I pay loads on income tax and I cant see the 40% bracket dropping. I pay loads on taxes on fuels, insurance (given the scooby is so high), etc. I dont like paying it. But we have two problems, money needs to come from somewhere and the car driving trend is getting worse not better.

bkar

(now where can I get abestos from ?)

DaveW

Hi,

Can anybody tell me whether the Government has to say what it spends on what, like most companies have to (not sure what its called). I bet that's interesting reading if its available

Here's a thought, why don't we go for the european model which seems to be that you pay about 40-50% income tax but everthing else is cheaper. Means most of us wouldn't be able to afford a Scooby to start with ! But if we could it would be cheaper to run

DaveW

DaveD

iTrader: (2)

Adding *more* tax to fuel will not discourage people from using their cars......does increasing tax on cigarettes or alcohol discourage their use????

I don't think so.

So why is this argument always put forward as a good reason for increasing taxation on fuel?

Dave

Imran

Sorry Bright Kar, whilst I respect your views, I can't honestly agree with them.

Infact, it's that kind of attitude that drives me mad!

To agree with the government in saying that the money will have to come from elsewhere is a cop-out. Now, I'm no economist/politician (oxymoron?), but I don't believe for one moment that it's fair that I pay tax at source, national insurance, VAT on everything I buy, tax on my savings, tax on my insurance, tax and vat on my fuel and council tax to live in my town, road-tax, and yet still have to suffer severe traffic congestion, NHS waiting lists and a VERY high cost of living.

Where the hell is all the money going?

Education? Driven into the ground. Universities are now a business, with most providing degrees that aren't worth the paper they're written on.

Transport? Crap, crap, expensive 5h1te

Emergency services? Why do I pay them at the fund raisers?

Police? Aren't they always too busy catching me speeding, to even notice who's mugging my neighbour?

Call me a cynic, but I'm fed-up with trying to see how they balance the books, because frankly I don't hink they do. I reckon there's a gaping hole somewhere, and we just go on and put up with it.

Imran

TONY BLAIR

"GOOD ON YOU TONY BLAIR"?? For what? Screwing the country (Again...)

You guys are more disillusioned than I am! With such ignorance, there is no wonder we get elected. Long may misguidence lost

Devils Advocate

Judging by the content of the post which initiated this thread, I take it that the use of the word "Bright" contained within the authors name refers to luminance and NOT intellect!

RBT2

Hey GT, You said "I want to emigrate", yes?

Then DO.

Don't get me wrong, I mean it. I am.

I'm going as I know that my skills (IT) and savings (property values etc) will buy me a much better standard of living in quite a few other countries I coud mention.

I have very few hard-and-fast ties to this country and I'm getting so very sick of the attitude which permeates modern UK life. "Rip-off Britain" is just so acurate it beggars belief.

I'm actually surprised that anybody in this country actually had the stomach to stand up for their rights and peacefully protest the ludicrous situation here. It is the first and only spark of hope I have for this God-forsaken country.

My Father agrees wholeheartedly and want to leave too. He fought for this country on more than one occasion. He's very sad to admit it, but he doesn't value it highly enough any longer.

What a state...

Ross.

PS - I'll be able to upgrade my car, for less money all at the same time. Great Eh?

adamson

Adamson - I believe the Millenium Dome was something the Tories started and Labour had to continue with when they got into power. The main thing though is that the tax payers contributed minimally as most of the funding came elsewhere.

Agreed. However, I don't think anyone was forcing them (the Labout Government) to continue with it. As I understand it, the money came from the lottery. Would the money have been better spent on more 'essential' services? Pointless question, I know.

Craig.

onmyhighhorse

I don't think you should talk about politics, and whats more it's offensive and bigotted and my children might read it and where would that lead ?

Simon I suggest you close all threads and not allow any ever just in case anyone ever states an opinion which is different than mine.

And anyway I'm leaving cause you're always moaning about stuff and BMW drivers and things and also I'm not going to buy a Subaru because I don't like any of you or you're opinions.

Oh yeah and I'm leaving the board and I'm never ever going to post again or ever read it - so Simon will probably lose all that money he makes from advertising.

So there

Mr.Cookie

Devils Advocate

Whilst i may not agree with Bkars opinions on this issue i dont think it is acceptable to mock some one for voicing theirs

Simon

Bright Kar

There has been a lot said about how the government mismanages things. Actually the government sets policies and the civil service, which does not have any political allegiances and is persistent through government changes ,are the people who execute on those policies. Unless the government has wasting money polices, it is the people that are executing that wasting the money. Are the civil service doing a bad job or are we just mis-understanding the enormity of their tasks when policies changes.

For instance, the NHS was seriously underfunded. When the Tories were in place people started leaving that industry. People no longer wanted to go into that profession and consequently demand for courses diminished. When the labour party came in and started spending serious funds they were in a position to stop the rot. That is stop people leaving in hoards. The main trouble with the NHS currently is understaffing. You cannot reverse the understaffing issue overnight as you now need to start training new people, but of course there isn’t the same training capacity there used to be. These things take time.

The same argument is true for many other things like education, policing, etc.

I don’t like fuel tax anymore than you do. But there again I don’t appreciate 40% income tax, or the 17.5% VAT either. So taxes are spread amongst many things. I think fuel tax is a tax on car usage and is much better than road tax and perfectly reasonable to me. I think it is a little high (bit of an understatement) but I think that about VAT and income tax also. My only reservation to this thinking is that if it doesn’t eventually force people to find alternative means of transportation (yes I know not everyone can change – it isnt possible) it will force inflation up as it will effectively increase the cost of everything.

The point is that if there was an effective bus/rail/tram service many people (not all as we all know) will have a choice of alternative forms of transports. If those people take that choice there will be less traffic thereby making the roads better. By forcing the cost of fuel up, it is making car travel less attractive thereby making people think twice about investigating the alternatives. Companies are starting to invest in alternatives (Virgin for instance is trying - even if its not doing to good it is at least trying) but unfortunately we are not yet at the stage where they are viable and we can wean people from their cars. As someone else mentioned, safety is another important aspect.

It’s simple economics. When the Tories run down our train service and sold it, people stopped using it and consequently fares had to be increased to accommodate. Reversing that process is lengthy and expensive.

I would like to go to London more frequently for pleasure but I cant be bothered with hassle of the drive and parking. I would go by train but it is to damn expensive, especially if I take the family. Hence, I dont have a choice.

Building more roads concept will NOT work. If you look at the US which I think you can assume is the king of road buidling and who are not shy about adding another road, it still has massive road traffic problems. Look at somewhere like Washington D.C. Everyday it is gridlock around the beltway. It is worse than the M25 !. The sad thing is that the US have more space to build their roads, we don’t.

I spend 1/4 of my time in the US. Mostly CA. Yeah, fuel is cheaper. At around $1.80 a US Gallon (which is smaller) it makes their fuel around 33 pence a litre. Also their standard fuel tends to be pretty low RON (92 RON) and I don’t even think their best get beyond 95 RON (but I could be wrong). But there plenty of other things wrong with the US. Where the US is cheaper is only on items where we are being ripped off. Go to a grocery store and you will be amazed at the costs on some things.

I’ve actually got the option to move there but I don’t want to. I like England thank you very much. I’d be happier in the UK if I wasnt ripped off on stuff like cars and the like but I think that will change as public awareness increases. I had the choice to import, so I imported.

If petrol prices are high it will make allow other forms of transport to become viable. This will give many people a choice of alternate transport that they don’t currently have, or if they choose to go by car or don’t a choice (their route or area doesn’t allow it), tolerable traffic.

bkar (the unpopular)
(PS thanks to the people that stayed courteous through my mad rantings )

ian/555

I could be wrong but i believe that the National audit office keeps records of Government spending, i have heard that alot of the items purchased are vastly over priced.

If people only knew the real story regarding the way that contracts are given.

Hmm i wonder if any politicians own any companys which own company after company which have at some point down the line any Government tendor's?

Why is it after being the chancellor or PM that the politicians get given positions in company's that will only take up 2 hrs a month for salires of £500,000+

You can call me a cynic but who in there right mind would employ someone for 2hrs a month on that wage.

Devils Advocate

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mr.Cookie:
<B>Devils Advocate

Whilst i may not agree with Bkars opinions on this issue i dont think it is acceptable to mock some one for voicing theirs

Simon[/quote]

Mr Cookie please do not legislate what is acceptable and what is not, surely you meant to give your point of view based on your own personal opinion!

moz.g

BK, agree with most of what you say, just to let you know your not the only one.

Graham

Kevin Greeley

Lets face it, anything controlled or run by the government is riddled with bureaucracy and costs a fortune to run. It's about the time NHS was privatised !

The proportion of fuel tax and national insurance that goes to the NHS would more than pay for private medical insurance for the whole population I reckon ?

<shields up>

Kevin.

I Stancer

as I said elsewhere on this same statement
BKAR writes
"Then we have the farmers, or more importantly the idiots that have been protesting. Fuel for farming doesnt come under the same taxation as we do - its cheaper. One farmer with a supernova brain last night said "We need cheaper fuel, more specifically the goverment needs to reduce taxes on fuel". But his farming fuel hasnt got particularly high tax, so surely he should be asking the petrol companies to reduce there fuel costs as he will then get maximum amount of saving. Dooohhhhhhh
If farmers have a problem with their living it isnt because of fuel. If there living isnt drawing enough to pay for fuel for domestic uses then tough, join the rest of the country.

The master counter-argument to all that I have said, "ah yes but we cant all walk or use public transport. What about those people in the country ?" Everything is lifestyle choice. Fuel is a limited resource.

Christ I sound like a Green - arrrghhhh

The protestors have been the truckers and the farmers. Hopefully you've read my case that the truckers are trying to look after their jobs - they dont want stuff moving off the roads - BUT I DO, the farmers dont understand why they are protesting.

I wrote previously
"You are right that red Diesel is cheap by comparison to Derv , but at the moment at 25p/litre aprox as compared with 11p this time last year it is having a huge effect . As an oil producing nation this govt is getting huge extra revinue for oil at a high price
BUT red Diesel is not the only issue , Farmers by deffinition are country dwellers and the car is the only form of transport available and also of course high milage is inevitable a car is not a lifestyle choice ( a Scoob. Turbo is but that is a different story )it is essential for everybody .

But even this is not the main reason for protest . Farming relies to a dissproportionately (wow) large extent on the haulage industry to bring in raw materials (at retail prices ) and dispatch high volumes of low value produce over large distances . i.e. 25 tonnes of wheat at a value of £1500 collected from a remote farm in Lincolnshire and taken to a mill in say Liverpool ,means a high cost per tonne in fuel which is always passed on to the farmer in a lower price for a commodity already at or bellow break even value anyway or squeezzzzed out of the deal for the haulier and farmer by a merchant .
So as you see this is very much solidarity with the haulage industry for mutual benefit "
I can quite see many of your arguments , nobody owes farmers or truckers a living but we are realy rather nice
and one more thing living in the country is not a Lifestyle chioce to genuine country folk , If we could send all the people who work in the smoke to live in the smoke then the environment would improve for everyone !unless they don't like smoke !!!

and before you ask I've not been protesting on my tractor . too buisy counting all that subsidy cash

dissmount soap-box AGAIN !!!!!!

Flame suit on standby !AGAIN !!!!!!!!!

Bright Kar

I Stancer,

Cant disagree with anything you said. Its a basic argument that every good produced in the UK will be more expensive due increased transportation costs - I mentioned that in one comment about resulting inflation (I think anyway). And your side comments on subsidies is interesting. Actually its because of the disproportionate amount of subsidies that farmers in Europe are getting, that farmers in the UK are in, and will continue to be, in trouble. If they were getting the same subsidies this wouldnt be arising. The fact the British public wont vote with their wallet in most cases and spend a few extra pence for something produced in England makes things worse. But its frequently the same people that use the "what about the poor farmers" that wont buy British because its a bit more money.

Europeans and especially the French are much more patriotic and hence given a reasonable choice will choose their own countries products. Move away from food and just look at the car industries in Europe, France, Germany, Italy and see were Uk stands.

We moan how crap this and that is in the UK, but suddenly they become heros when it suits us. Its almost as if Rudyard Kilping's "Tommy" comes to life in a broader context.

I think its the mindless crowd mentality that annoys me more then anything. As I said your basic arguments stand true.

bkar (no flame suit on, expecting stones)

I Stancer

Sorry not a great R Kipling expert but you seem to have a reasonable grip on reality
The truth about subsidies in agriculture is that while they may have bought undue wealth to farmers at times over the last 30 years , overall all they have done is make food cheap rather than farmers rich
Now how did we get here from scoob general questions

[This message has been edited by I Stancer (edited 18 September 2000).]