chiark

Well, this is fun. Not.

I agreed a sale on my car last week. I sorted my finance out with the subaru dealer. I wanted a straight loan to buy the car - I was going to use egg again, but my Subaru dealer said he could do better on the rate.

Reality is that it's a hire purchase agreement and that International Motors have a stake in the car, so I can't sell it until this is clear. It turns out IM finance is part of Capital Bank. And the rate quoted to me from the dealer was a flat rate - egg quote APRs, and I'd assumed that everyone has to when dealing with the public. There is a big difference...

So, I pay the finance company last Thursday by arranging a BACS payment at my bank in person with two forms of ID. Half an hour wasted doing that, but I can't make the payment over the 'net because it's too much money to move in one day... I overpay by nigh on 300 quid, because a DD taken from my account on 15th isn't yet showing on their account. This payment (nearly 4k) hits their account yesterday.

Phone them today, and they've found the payment. They say they'll apply it to my account tomorrow. Why not immediately? I dunno.

My buyer phones HPI to get them to give the car the all clear.

The finance company tell HPI that they'll not declare their interest in the car as over until the money has cleared.

They want to wait 10 days for the money to clear, despite the fact that it's sitting right now in their account showing as cleared funds.

They say if I'd paid with a "telegraphic transfer" that it would have been immediate clearance. If they meant CHAPS payment, why not say CHAPS payment? I'd have paid the 20 quid that my bank would charge for this...

So, resulting from this, HPI will continue to say that my car is not clear for another 10 days, and my buyer won't be able to pick the car up on Friday unless he wants to take it on trust that the money will clear. This is money that left my account last Thursday, and was available as cleared funds yesterday. There is *nothing* I can do to get that money back as I understand it.

The finance company has told my buyer that I should ask my bank to get the money back, and send a CHAPS payment instead. I've never heard of being able to recall a BACS payment... And I thought I knew how the payment industry worked!

I am *seething*. The finance company close at 5pm, so I can do knacker all today. My bank branch closes at 5PM, so I can do nothing there either. I'll not bother with the "call centre" as I like my sanity and can't face the thought of trying to explain this to someone over the phone.

I personally will not be doing business with Capital Bank *ever*. The credit card is getting cancelled tomorrow. International Motors will be getting a politely written letter of criticism pointing out that APR and flat rate are not interchangeable terms, Capital Bank will be getting a letter accusing them of unfair practice and obtaining a pecuniary advantage through deception (they've sat on a significant amount of cleared money and claimed to be waiting for it to clear, which makes them a fair whack of interest), and the banking ombudsman will be involved.

Any suggestions for how to sort this sorry mess out and clear the account at Capital Bank with cleared funds prior to Thursday?

Moral of the story: don't use dealer finance, or at the very least be aware of the above when taking out a car loan from them!

pslewis

I have noticed that Car Dealers ALWAYS quote a flat rate, they say something like, "We can offer 4.6% which is a match for the High Street rate"

The not clued up will assume that its APR - BUT, the fact is, APR is DOUBLE the Flat Rate ie. that 4.6% is ACTUALLY 9.2%!!!!! Hardly competitive at all!!

But then, they said that the rate is a match for a High Street rate - which it is!! A very bad match, but a match just the same!!

Don't get caught out, sort your finance yourself and walk in the Dealers with money sorted and in the Bank ............... and Haggle, HARD!!!

Pete

Robocop

Is there not a cooling off period off where you can choose to cancel your finance agreement. You would then be able to finance the car from say a bank loan and the car would be "yours" and not IM's until the final payment.
Have a look on the net for the Consumer Credit Act 1973 I think it is.
It might be quicker and IM would have a flea in their ear.

pslewis

Hasn't it got something to do with 'Where' you signed??

At Home or at the Dealers??

Pete

Chris5-0

Don't mention pecuniary advantage mate, they've not commited it. This offence related to gaining things such as overdrafts, insurance or gaining employment to gain money by lying basically.

You're dispute is purely civil i feel and would be better suited in a business law solicitors office than a cop shop where you won't speak to an expert on such matters.

Just a small point, know your pi55ed but don't want you tripping yourself up and making it harder for yourself!

Catherine

A BACS DD payment can only be reclaimed at the very latest the day after the payment left your account.

My understanding is that if I make a BACS payment say to my savings account, it can't be recalled and the same applies to any bills I pay (therefore the same should apply to your payment to Capital Bank)

Interestingly I also have just used Capital Bank on the new Scoob and had used them on the Porsche, they also were wanting to wait 10 days for the DD Payment to clear.

davedipster

CHAPS is an immediate payment and that's what you should of been advised to do, your bank should of done this. You can do a CHAPS there and then while on the phone to IM and they should of cleared the finance that moment. Then your buyers HPI would of cleared IIRC.
BACS takes longer to clear-can be as long as a cheque and banks always sit on this for a while, god knows why.

As far as IM finance goes ,they beat my quote from the nationwide, and they quoted me the APR as they must do by law if asked-I did. Nevertheless, the monthly payments and total repayable with IM was cheaper than the best I could get anywhere inc the internet.
Golden rule with HP is always ask for the APR and compare the total repayed on the loan inc and 'setup fees'.
Oh and the car does remain the property of the finance company untill settled, never bothered me though cos I've always got a better deal than a std unsecured loan.

Dipster

davedipster

I think he's selling the car m8, trying to clear the finance.

Dipster

davedipster

Yep if you sign at a dealers then you made deliberate a trip to buy a car, in which case the 14 day cool off does not apply.

Dipster

budgie55

kind of related to this topic but I really would like to know where you guys get loans from HP for lower than the best APRs available on the net?

For instance I have just applied for a 23k personal loan for a scoob with Direct Line and the APR is coming out at 5.9% over 4 years. I doubt that could be beaten when you also consider the no arrangement fees and final payment fees? Someone please tell me I'm wrong... before I sign on the dotted line

davedipster

Try and get your dealer to beat it, you may be surprised.
ALWAYS use the total repayable as your target £25,818 in your case.

Dipster

chiark

Chris, thanks for the advice - you're right, I don't want to trip myself over

Thanks to all for managing to read the thread . I still don't believe that BACS payments can take 10 days to clear, and want an explanation of why it will take this long to clear when a BACS transfer to anyone else seems to take 3 days for cleared funds to be available.

I'll be at my bank tomorrow morning, and on the phone to Capital Bank tomorrow.

STi wanna Subaru

iTrader: (1)

Nick, just spoken to a mate who works at the Bank of Scotland and a BACS payment should never take 10 days! He said if the BACS was actioned on a Monday for example the funds would be there on the Wednesday, although you bank may say Thursday to give themselves a days grace. 10 days is a joke!

Pavlo

I would just say the whole deal is off. They can stick their finance where even the **** probe wont reach. Get all you rmoney back, go to another salesman in the dealership, the youngest, buy the car with him using your own choice of finance and give him a £50 cash tip.

You will feel better.

Paul

Diablo

Paul,

I think Nick is trying to sell the car, and is just giving us a bit of history (rant ) about the background.

Nick, 99% of dealer finance is HP. When I bought my most recent car I got the best quote I could for an unsecured loan, which came out at £X over Y years, giving a total of £Z.

Dealer said he could beat it, and started talking percentages. Told him not good enough. If he wanted to finance the deal, he would have to quote me a figure less than £X per month, over the same period, giving a total payable less than £Z.

He did, and I bought the car. Yes, its HP, but that's something I can live with. When I come to sell, I'll just clear the o/s with a (very) short term bank loan if I'm selling privately.

Made life much easier when collecting it.

As for 10 days to clear, as said above thats not how long it takes. Chaps payments can be recalled next day in certain circumstances (as Catherine has posted above), so an immediate clearance is never going to happen.

Finance co probably has procedures, sign offs and other processes hence the 10 day issue.

Its not going to solve the immediate problem, but you should speak to the finance company yourself and get clarity from them.

Read your agreement, it will probably mention clearance times. Its not great, but its not IM Finance/Capital Bank's fault either.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but the moral of this story is not to avoid dealer finance, but rather to know *exactly* what you are signing up for and with which company you are signing.



D

Pavlo

aaah, I thought he was selling it to buy another!

MattW

Chiark, must be a pisser. Have never used finance before because of the HPI issue, your story doesn't do anything to change my mind.

Hope your buyer is cool.

chiark

Well, a quick update.

I've just got back from spending an hour at my local Barclays branch. They've been excellent, but have got nowhere.

I cannot, under any circumstances, recall the payment. This is what IM has advised me to do just this morning. I can recall a BACS payment the same day, but not after.

The funds cleared into IM's account on Monday. It's sitting there as cleared funds. The only thing that Barclays can suggest is that their relationship with Bank of Scotland (who bank for them) is not that good, and BOS does not differentiate between the mechanisms used to pay money into an account unless it is via CHAPS.

So, we're guessing that due to the lack of service that IM have taken from their bank, they are sitting on cleared funds and claiming that they are not cleared.

Barclays have given me a letter saying that the funds are cleared. I just need to speak to my buyer now.

chiark

Spoken to IM Finance *again*. I've now faxed them a copy of the letter from the bank telling me that the funds cannot be recalled, and they've advised that they'll be able to send a full clearance letter.

Alle-<insert swearword>ing-luia!

When I have the letter, or a fax of it, I'll be a happy bunny.

ChrisB

So much for the electronic age...

chiark

I know. Nuts, isn't it!

AJbaseBloke

Not running one of your systems are they?

Seriously though, what a PITA.

And, erm, excuse the sticky beak (and possibly missing the news), but what is replacing the old one?

chiark

Mr AJBB
Dunno yet, but not a subaru. Due to mileage I'm doing, it's exceptionally likely to be diesel...