100 RON Fuel, available nationwide, but you can't use Cats
09 July 2000, 09:22 PM
#2
MTR, you are very wrong on this fuel being OK.
Lead will knacker your Lambda sensor which is still used even when you de-cat the car.
Dont use leaded fuel!
As for your explanation on power gains, i wish life was that simple.
Lead will knacker your Lambda sensor which is still used even when you de-cat the car.
Dont use leaded fuel!
As for your explanation on power gains, i wish life was that simple.
09 July 2000, 09:32 PM
#3
Scooby Regular
Why will lead knacker you lambda sensor???
I de-catted my Calibra and ran it on leaded with the sensor in place for 6 years - no ill effects whatsoever????
Pete
I de-catted my Calibra and ran it on leaded with the sensor in place for 6 years - no ill effects whatsoever????
Pete
09 July 2000, 09:34 PM
#4
Scooby Regular
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wander what makes it bad for Cats ?
In fact, I wander what makes LRP bad for Cats ? (I dont know, I am asking, no flames please)
Given there is no lead in this fuel, will the substitute still knacker the Lambda sensor ?
As its getting harder to find SUL, even if this was suitable it would just be a tease wouldnt it ?
bkar
In fact, I wander what makes LRP bad for Cats ? (I dont know, I am asking, no flames please)
Given there is no lead in this fuel, will the substitute still knacker the Lambda sensor ?
As its getting harder to find SUL, even if this was suitable it would just be a tease wouldnt it ?
bkar
09 July 2000, 10:57 PM
#5
Below is an extract from Webber's (webcon) site on there air/fuel ratio meter system.
It is well known that a lambda sensor will be Poisoned by lead in the same way a catalytic convertor will be.
Its main active electrodes are platinum coated and lead will coat the platinum and destroy its working properties.
You can use a lambda sensor when setting up on a dyno an engine usung leaded fuel, however the sensor becomes a disposible item as it quickly becomes contaminated.
It wont take long at all on the road for your lambda sensor to be poisoned and will be useless for controling your emmisions and therefore your closed loop idle control will not function properly.
Most engine management systems do not use lambda control closed loop systems above 3000RPM, most uprated systems like on the cossie P8 doe not use lambda control above 1500RPM.
Using leaded fuel on a road car with a lambda sensor will poison the sensor and your emisions will suffer, as will your idle control.
There are technical papers on this by the SAE if you care to read more.
chears
john
T026 LAMBDA DISPLAY SYSTEM
For high performance engine tuning using 'Engine Management' technology at D.I.Y. prices the T026 offers a cost effective option to Dyno/Rolling Road Tuning.
It is now possible to accurately monitor the fuelling characteristics of your engine while driving on road, off road, or on the track in order to assess the calibration of your fuel system, whether it be fuel injection or carburettor.
Using the T026 lambda air/fuel ratio display unit, mounted to the facia of your vehicle, you can check that the fuelling requirement of your engine is correct.
WHAT IS THE T026 LAMBDA DISPLAY SYSTEM ?
It is a compact and lightweight lambda display unit and a heated lambda (oxygen) sensor.
The display unit is finished in an attractive black textured steel casing and features 30 LED indicators which are colour coded to assist quick and accurate fuel calibration. Display unit dimensions 100 x 50 x 20 mm.
The lambda sensor is a high quality original equipment fitment component which is connected to the display unit via a dedicated wiring harness with system fuse.
A comprehensive instruction pamphlet is included, detailing the fitment components with a wiring diagram and information on how use the lambda display to your best advantage.
Completing the system is a lambda sensor mounting boss with plug, wiring crimp connectors and adhesive velcro mounting strips.
HOW DOES IT WORK ?
The T026 Lambda Display System constantly monitors the air/fuel ratio of the engine using a lambda (oxygen) sensor placed in the exhaust system. This sensor accurately detects the amount of free oxygen (O2) in the exhaust gases, from which the air/fuel ratio can be calculated.
This information is normally used in 'Engine Management Systems' to enable the electronic control unit to adjust the air/fuel ratio to the optimum value for vehicles fitted with catalytic convertors.
The TO26 Lambda Display Meter utilises this same information received from its own lambda sensor and indicates the air/fuel ratio on the colour coded LED lights, ranging from rich to lean mixtures, typically 12.5:1 to 15.0:1 A.F.R. when using regular pump fuels.
IS THE T026 SUITABLE FOR USE WITH MY ENGINE ?
The T026 will work on virtually any 12 volt negative ground vehicle, using regular pump petrol, methanol or propane. Leaded fuel can be used, but it will contaminate and limit the life of the oxygen sensor. The T026 is also suitable for use with rotary engines
It is well known that a lambda sensor will be Poisoned by lead in the same way a catalytic convertor will be.
Its main active electrodes are platinum coated and lead will coat the platinum and destroy its working properties.
You can use a lambda sensor when setting up on a dyno an engine usung leaded fuel, however the sensor becomes a disposible item as it quickly becomes contaminated.
It wont take long at all on the road for your lambda sensor to be poisoned and will be useless for controling your emmisions and therefore your closed loop idle control will not function properly.
Most engine management systems do not use lambda control closed loop systems above 3000RPM, most uprated systems like on the cossie P8 doe not use lambda control above 1500RPM.
Using leaded fuel on a road car with a lambda sensor will poison the sensor and your emisions will suffer, as will your idle control.
There are technical papers on this by the SAE if you care to read more.
chears
john
T026 LAMBDA DISPLAY SYSTEM
For high performance engine tuning using 'Engine Management' technology at D.I.Y. prices the T026 offers a cost effective option to Dyno/Rolling Road Tuning.
It is now possible to accurately monitor the fuelling characteristics of your engine while driving on road, off road, or on the track in order to assess the calibration of your fuel system, whether it be fuel injection or carburettor.
Using the T026 lambda air/fuel ratio display unit, mounted to the facia of your vehicle, you can check that the fuelling requirement of your engine is correct.
WHAT IS THE T026 LAMBDA DISPLAY SYSTEM ?
It is a compact and lightweight lambda display unit and a heated lambda (oxygen) sensor.
The display unit is finished in an attractive black textured steel casing and features 30 LED indicators which are colour coded to assist quick and accurate fuel calibration. Display unit dimensions 100 x 50 x 20 mm.
The lambda sensor is a high quality original equipment fitment component which is connected to the display unit via a dedicated wiring harness with system fuse.
A comprehensive instruction pamphlet is included, detailing the fitment components with a wiring diagram and information on how use the lambda display to your best advantage.
Completing the system is a lambda sensor mounting boss with plug, wiring crimp connectors and adhesive velcro mounting strips.
HOW DOES IT WORK ?
The T026 Lambda Display System constantly monitors the air/fuel ratio of the engine using a lambda (oxygen) sensor placed in the exhaust system. This sensor accurately detects the amount of free oxygen (O2) in the exhaust gases, from which the air/fuel ratio can be calculated.
This information is normally used in 'Engine Management Systems' to enable the electronic control unit to adjust the air/fuel ratio to the optimum value for vehicles fitted with catalytic convertors.
The TO26 Lambda Display Meter utilises this same information received from its own lambda sensor and indicates the air/fuel ratio on the colour coded LED lights, ranging from rich to lean mixtures, typically 12.5:1 to 15.0:1 A.F.R. when using regular pump fuels.
IS THE T026 SUITABLE FOR USE WITH MY ENGINE ?
The T026 will work on virtually any 12 volt negative ground vehicle, using regular pump petrol, methanol or propane. Leaded fuel can be used, but it will contaminate and limit the life of the oxygen sensor. The T026 is also suitable for use with rotary engines
Trending Topics
10 July 2000, 01:14 AM
#8
the early cossies didnt use a lambda sensor, that apeared on the 4x4 engined cars.
The reason the early cossies ran on 4 star was due to the octane rating.
The reason the cossie is OK to run on super unleaded is because from day one the valve seats in the heads are of a high enough spec to not need any lead to lubricate them.
Using some types of LRP that has potasium in it can cause the turbine blades in the turbo to be destroyed, you should avoid LRP as there is no British Standard and some use potasium, some use manganese. Manganese is OK on a turbo, potasium is not!
Lambda sensors come in 2 main types, heated and non heated. They need to run at 350 degrees C plus to work properly. There active element is platinum coated, if you contaminate it with lead it becomes "poisoned" and is useless.
You will see no real benefits from running a car mapped for 95RON on 97RON. In order to gain more power by exploiting the higher Ron rates you need to alter the timing in the map and the boost ( same as raising the comp ratio in an N/A car).
We run the rally car on ELF turbo FIA fuel, we have a diferent map for that fuel, when on shakedown events to save money we use super unleaded and swap the map over.
Without a remap, we would be waisting our money running on the expensive ELF fuel.
The reason the early cossies ran on 4 star was due to the octane rating.
The reason the cossie is OK to run on super unleaded is because from day one the valve seats in the heads are of a high enough spec to not need any lead to lubricate them.
Using some types of LRP that has potasium in it can cause the turbine blades in the turbo to be destroyed, you should avoid LRP as there is no British Standard and some use potasium, some use manganese. Manganese is OK on a turbo, potasium is not!
Lambda sensors come in 2 main types, heated and non heated. They need to run at 350 degrees C plus to work properly. There active element is platinum coated, if you contaminate it with lead it becomes "poisoned" and is useless.
You will see no real benefits from running a car mapped for 95RON on 97RON. In order to gain more power by exploiting the higher Ron rates you need to alter the timing in the map and the boost ( same as raising the comp ratio in an N/A car).
We run the rally car on ELF turbo FIA fuel, we have a diferent map for that fuel, when on shakedown events to save money we use super unleaded and swap the map over.
Without a remap, we would be waisting our money running on the expensive ELF fuel.
10 July 2000, 08:03 PM
#10
Scooby Regular
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ive got a WRX so its probably mapped to 100 RON, hence going down the RON range will make things worse. Yes/No ?
I guess its academic anyhow as there seems to be a risk to putting LRP in it anyhow.
bkar
I guess its academic anyhow as there seems to be a risk to putting LRP in it anyhow.
bkar
10 July 2000, 09:35 PM
#13
what the hell is this, teach basic engine techniques or sommat.
The lambda sensor is a SENSOR!!
The spark plug is a device that generates a spark when it is subject to a large potential(voltage) diference across its electrodes.
Slightly diferent app dont you think!
The Lambda sensor inputs a voltage signal to the ECU which represents the instantaneous composition of the air-fuel mixture. The Lambda sensor is installed in the engine exhaust manifold at a point which maintains the necessary temperature for the correct functioning of the sensor over the complete operating range of the engine.
Operation
The sensor protrudes into the exhaust gas stream and is designed so that the outer electrode is surrounded by exhaust gas, and the inner electrode is connected to the atmospheric air. Basically, the sensor is constructed from an element of special ceramic, the surface of which is coated with microporous platinum electrodes. The operation of the sensor is based upon the fact that ceramic material is porous and permits diffusion of the oxygen present in the air (solid electrolyte). At higher temperatures, it becomes conductive, and if the oxygen concentration on one side of the electrode is different to that on the other, then a voltage is generated between the electrodes. In the area of stoichiometric air-fuel mixture (Lambda=1.00), a jump takes place in the sensor voltage output curve. This voltage represents the measured signal.
The ceramic sensor body is held in a threaded mounting and provided with a protective tube and electrical connections. The surface of the sensor ceramic body has a microporous platinum layer which on the one side decisively influences the sensor characteristic while on the other serving as an electrical contact. A highly adhesive and highly porous ceramic coating has been applied over the platinum layer at the end of the ceramic body that is exposed to the exhaust gas. This protective layer prevents the solid particles in the exhaust gas from eroding the platinum layer. A protective metal sleeve is fitted over the sensor on the electrical connection end and crimped to the sensor housing. This sleeve is provided with a bore to ensure pressure compensation in the sensor interior, and also serves as the support for the disc spring. The connection lead is crimped to the contact element and is led through an insulating sleeve to the outside of the sensor. In order to keep combustion deposits in the exhaust gas away from the ceramic body, the end of the exhaust sensor which protrudes into the exhaust-gas flow is protected by a special tube having slots so designed that the exhaust gas and the solid particles entrained in it do not come into direct contact with the ceramic body. In addition to the mechanical protection thus provided, the changes in sensor temperature during transition from one operating mode to the other are effectively reduced. The voltage output of the sensor, and its internal resistance, are dependent upon temperature. Reliable functioning of the sensor is only possible with exhaust-gas temperatures above 350°C (unheated version), and above 200°C (heated version).
Heated Lambda oxygen sensor
To a large extent, the design principle of the heated Lambda sensor is identical to that of the unheated sensor. The active sensor ceramic is heated internally by a ceramic heating element with the result that the temperature of the ceramic body always remains above the function limit of 250°C. The heated sensor is equipped with a protective tube having a smaller opening. Amongst other things, this prevents the sensor ceramic from cooling down when the exhaust gas is cold. Amongst the advantages of the heated Lambda sensor are the reliable and efficient control at low exhaust-gas temperatures (e.g. at idle), the minimum effect of exhaust-gas temperature variations, the rapid coming into effect of the Lambda control following engine start, short sensor-reaction which avoids extreme deviations from the ideal exhaust-gas composition, versatility regarding installation because the sensor is now independent of heating from its surroundings.
Lambda closed-loop control circuit
By means of the Lambda closed-loo control the air-fuel ratio can be maintained precisely at Lambda=1.00. The Lambda closed-loop control is an add-on function, which, in principle, can supplement every controllable fuel-management system. Using the closed-loop control circuit formed with the aid of the Lambda sensor, deviations from a specified air-fuel ratio can be detected and corrected. This Control principle is based upon the measurement of the exhaust-gas oxygen by the Lambda sensor. The exhaust-gas oxygen is a measure for the composition of the air-fuel mixture supplied to the engine. The Lambda sensor acts as a probe in the exhaust pipe and delivers the information as to whether the mixture is richer or leaner than Lambda=1.00. In case of a deviation from this Lambda=1.00 figure, the voltage of the sensor output signal changes abruptly. This pronounced change is evaluated by the ECU which is provided with a closed loop control circuit for this purpose. The injection of fuel to the engine is controlled by the fuel-management system in accordance with the information on the composition of the air-fuel mixture received from the Lambda sensor. This control is such that an air-fuel ratio of Lambda=1 is achieved. The sensor voltage is a measure for the correction of the fuel quantity in the air-fuel mixture. The signal which is processed in the closed-loop control circuit is used to control the injector cycles. In this manner, the fuel can be metered so precisely that depending upon load and engine speed, the air-fuel ratio is an optimum in all operating modes. Tolerances and the ageing of the engine have no effect whatsoever. At values above Lambda=1.00, more fuel is metered to the engine, and at values below Lambda=1.00, less. This continuous, almost lag-free adjustment of the air-fuel mixture to Lambda=1.00, is one of the prerequisites for the efficient after treatment of the exhaust gases by the downstream catalytic converter.
Hope that explains lambda sensors enough.
The ECU in the scoob is using a knock sensor to alter the map actively, the map is set originally for SUL and will alter the timing based on engine knock detected. If you have an ECU with a static map, that is designed for 95ron, puting 97 in is a waste of money.
On the STi cars that are default mapped for 100ron then they will be running on a far from optimum map even when using SUL.
Obviously if your engines default map is designed for 100RON then best performance will be gained from using 100RON, its not really rocket science is it?
However if your engine is mapped for 97ron, using 100ron is pointless.
I'll get me coat now i think.
edited to stop me looking like a nasty ba$tard.
[This message has been edited by johnfelstead (edited 10-07-2000).]
The lambda sensor is a SENSOR!!
The spark plug is a device that generates a spark when it is subject to a large potential(voltage) diference across its electrodes.
Slightly diferent app dont you think!
The Lambda sensor inputs a voltage signal to the ECU which represents the instantaneous composition of the air-fuel mixture. The Lambda sensor is installed in the engine exhaust manifold at a point which maintains the necessary temperature for the correct functioning of the sensor over the complete operating range of the engine.
Operation
The sensor protrudes into the exhaust gas stream and is designed so that the outer electrode is surrounded by exhaust gas, and the inner electrode is connected to the atmospheric air. Basically, the sensor is constructed from an element of special ceramic, the surface of which is coated with microporous platinum electrodes. The operation of the sensor is based upon the fact that ceramic material is porous and permits diffusion of the oxygen present in the air (solid electrolyte). At higher temperatures, it becomes conductive, and if the oxygen concentration on one side of the electrode is different to that on the other, then a voltage is generated between the electrodes. In the area of stoichiometric air-fuel mixture (Lambda=1.00), a jump takes place in the sensor voltage output curve. This voltage represents the measured signal.
The ceramic sensor body is held in a threaded mounting and provided with a protective tube and electrical connections. The surface of the sensor ceramic body has a microporous platinum layer which on the one side decisively influences the sensor characteristic while on the other serving as an electrical contact. A highly adhesive and highly porous ceramic coating has been applied over the platinum layer at the end of the ceramic body that is exposed to the exhaust gas. This protective layer prevents the solid particles in the exhaust gas from eroding the platinum layer. A protective metal sleeve is fitted over the sensor on the electrical connection end and crimped to the sensor housing. This sleeve is provided with a bore to ensure pressure compensation in the sensor interior, and also serves as the support for the disc spring. The connection lead is crimped to the contact element and is led through an insulating sleeve to the outside of the sensor. In order to keep combustion deposits in the exhaust gas away from the ceramic body, the end of the exhaust sensor which protrudes into the exhaust-gas flow is protected by a special tube having slots so designed that the exhaust gas and the solid particles entrained in it do not come into direct contact with the ceramic body. In addition to the mechanical protection thus provided, the changes in sensor temperature during transition from one operating mode to the other are effectively reduced. The voltage output of the sensor, and its internal resistance, are dependent upon temperature. Reliable functioning of the sensor is only possible with exhaust-gas temperatures above 350°C (unheated version), and above 200°C (heated version).
Heated Lambda oxygen sensor
To a large extent, the design principle of the heated Lambda sensor is identical to that of the unheated sensor. The active sensor ceramic is heated internally by a ceramic heating element with the result that the temperature of the ceramic body always remains above the function limit of 250°C. The heated sensor is equipped with a protective tube having a smaller opening. Amongst other things, this prevents the sensor ceramic from cooling down when the exhaust gas is cold. Amongst the advantages of the heated Lambda sensor are the reliable and efficient control at low exhaust-gas temperatures (e.g. at idle), the minimum effect of exhaust-gas temperature variations, the rapid coming into effect of the Lambda control following engine start, short sensor-reaction which avoids extreme deviations from the ideal exhaust-gas composition, versatility regarding installation because the sensor is now independent of heating from its surroundings.
Lambda closed-loop control circuit
By means of the Lambda closed-loo control the air-fuel ratio can be maintained precisely at Lambda=1.00. The Lambda closed-loop control is an add-on function, which, in principle, can supplement every controllable fuel-management system. Using the closed-loop control circuit formed with the aid of the Lambda sensor, deviations from a specified air-fuel ratio can be detected and corrected. This Control principle is based upon the measurement of the exhaust-gas oxygen by the Lambda sensor. The exhaust-gas oxygen is a measure for the composition of the air-fuel mixture supplied to the engine. The Lambda sensor acts as a probe in the exhaust pipe and delivers the information as to whether the mixture is richer or leaner than Lambda=1.00. In case of a deviation from this Lambda=1.00 figure, the voltage of the sensor output signal changes abruptly. This pronounced change is evaluated by the ECU which is provided with a closed loop control circuit for this purpose. The injection of fuel to the engine is controlled by the fuel-management system in accordance with the information on the composition of the air-fuel mixture received from the Lambda sensor. This control is such that an air-fuel ratio of Lambda=1 is achieved. The sensor voltage is a measure for the correction of the fuel quantity in the air-fuel mixture. The signal which is processed in the closed-loop control circuit is used to control the injector cycles. In this manner, the fuel can be metered so precisely that depending upon load and engine speed, the air-fuel ratio is an optimum in all operating modes. Tolerances and the ageing of the engine have no effect whatsoever. At values above Lambda=1.00, more fuel is metered to the engine, and at values below Lambda=1.00, less. This continuous, almost lag-free adjustment of the air-fuel mixture to Lambda=1.00, is one of the prerequisites for the efficient after treatment of the exhaust gases by the downstream catalytic converter.
Hope that explains lambda sensors enough.
The ECU in the scoob is using a knock sensor to alter the map actively, the map is set originally for SUL and will alter the timing based on engine knock detected. If you have an ECU with a static map, that is designed for 95ron, puting 97 in is a waste of money.
On the STi cars that are default mapped for 100ron then they will be running on a far from optimum map even when using SUL.
Obviously if your engines default map is designed for 100RON then best performance will be gained from using 100RON, its not really rocket science is it?
However if your engine is mapped for 97ron, using 100ron is pointless.
I'll get me coat now i think.
edited to stop me looking like a nasty ba$tard.
[This message has been edited by johnfelstead (edited 10-07-2000).]
10 July 2000, 09:51 PM
#14
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 188
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bloody hell guys I'll have to go to bed now, I haven't learnt so much since I was at school(12 years ago!)
Graham
[This message has been edited by moz.g (edited 10-07-2000).]
[This message has been edited by moz.g (edited 10-07-2000).]
Graham
[This message has been edited by moz.g (edited 10-07-2000).]
[This message has been edited by moz.g (edited 10-07-2000).]
10 July 2000, 10:43 PM
#15
Scooby Regular
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yo John Felstead,
You seem to know your stuff. You can knock a man down to his knees by just explaining things in detail, and a good read it is too. But chill out m8, no need to be rude to people that question you, as it appears you have clarified things pretty well and put them in their place by just doing that. The punchline doesnt reflect well on you.
Now kiss and make up to pslewis and tell him you are sorry
MTR, check the "Blue mica paint problems" topic. Some guy is covering stone chip markings with a crayon !!! A man after your own heart
JohnFelstead, what determins whether you have a static or dynamic map in the ECU ? Ive got a new WRX, whats your guess on that ? PS. What do you do ?
bkar
You seem to know your stuff. You can knock a man down to his knees by just explaining things in detail, and a good read it is too. But chill out m8, no need to be rude to people that question you, as it appears you have clarified things pretty well and put them in their place by just doing that. The punchline doesnt reflect well on you.
Now kiss and make up to pslewis and tell him you are sorry
MTR, check the "Blue mica paint problems" topic. Some guy is covering stone chip markings with a crayon !!! A man after your own heart
JohnFelstead, what determins whether you have a static or dynamic map in the ECU ? Ive got a new WRX, whats your guess on that ? PS. What do you do ?
bkar
10 July 2000, 11:08 PM
#16
i dont comment on things i am not sure of so cant tell you what the new WRX ECU does.
Most modern engines however use a knock sensor to allow some active control of the ignition timing in a similar way to how the emisions are controlled by a lambda sensor.
If pre-ignition (det/knock) is detected the ignition is backed off to reduce this. This is a form of active map although there are still limitations to how much the ignition can be altered.
what do i do? I now work in IT on Oracle databases although i trained in electronics and worked in NDT test systems on nuclear instalations for years, i spent 3 years designing automation systems using various sensors acurate to 1 micron including laser and capacitive sensors used on F1 cars.
I have been building and running competition cars for 17 years as a serious hobby, including helping prototype a new 5 litre V8 engine that was raced in the FIA GT championship so i know a fair bit about car systems. I would not class myself as an expert, but i do understand most vehicle systems quite well.
Most modern engines however use a knock sensor to allow some active control of the ignition timing in a similar way to how the emisions are controlled by a lambda sensor.
If pre-ignition (det/knock) is detected the ignition is backed off to reduce this. This is a form of active map although there are still limitations to how much the ignition can be altered.
what do i do? I now work in IT on Oracle databases although i trained in electronics and worked in NDT test systems on nuclear instalations for years, i spent 3 years designing automation systems using various sensors acurate to 1 micron including laser and capacitive sensors used on F1 cars.
I have been building and running competition cars for 17 years as a serious hobby, including helping prototype a new 5 litre V8 engine that was raced in the FIA GT championship so i know a fair bit about car systems. I would not class myself as an expert, but i do understand most vehicle systems quite well.
10 July 2000, 11:09 PM
#17
Scooby Regular
As for pslewis, he obviously doesn't know $hit about lambda sensors and how they work, unless of course the laws of physics and chemistry cease to exhist in his engines.
You are suffering from verbal diarrhoea John ... and you can't spell EXIST !! you are trying to blind by science !!!
All I will say my man is that I ran my Calibra on leaded fuel with no Cat for 6 years and the lambda still worked fine - how long before the lead kills it then???? come on you should be able to produce a 2000 word essay to blind us into thinking you know what the hell you are talking about!!
By the way BOSCH said that the Calibra will run fine with the Lambda sensor in place and leaded fuel being used - now I KNOW that they didnt consult you first but hey, they just made it thats all!!
Regards
BIG BAD MAD Pete
You are suffering from verbal diarrhoea John ... and you can't spell EXIST !! you are trying to blind by science !!!
All I will say my man is that I ran my Calibra on leaded fuel with no Cat for 6 years and the lambda still worked fine - how long before the lead kills it then???? come on you should be able to produce a 2000 word essay to blind us into thinking you know what the hell you are talking about!!
By the way BOSCH said that the Calibra will run fine with the Lambda sensor in place and leaded fuel being used - now I KNOW that they didnt consult you first but hey, they just made it thats all!!
Regards
BIG BAD MAD Pete
10 July 2000, 11:53 PM
#20
i am waisting my time on this BBS i think.
I am obviously full of **** and dont have a clue about anything car related at all!
have fun, enjoy melting your engines.
john talks **** and knows **** felstead
I am obviously full of **** and dont have a clue about anything car related at all!
have fun, enjoy melting your engines.
john talks **** and knows **** felstead
11 July 2000, 07:45 AM
#21
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Manchester
Posts: 665
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cheers for all the technical info John. Fascinating.
Am I right in thinking that 'leaded' Lambda sensors are available? I seem to remember reading references to them before.
Might help those wishing to use leaded petrol?
Andrew
Am I right in thinking that 'leaded' Lambda sensors are available? I seem to remember reading references to them before.
Might help those wishing to use leaded petrol?
Andrew
11 July 2000, 08:24 AM
#22
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 1,947
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
John,
please carry on with detailing your knowledge when you know about a subject, I for one find it very informative.
Is this genuine leaded petrol? If its not then you dont want to use it anyway, seen what its done to a few turbos, worn the blades away!
Maybe the Calibra wasnt using the sensor that much, so whilst it was knackered, it wasnt actually noticable?
robski
please carry on with detailing your knowledge when you know about a subject, I for one find it very informative.
Is this genuine leaded petrol? If its not then you dont want to use it anyway, seen what its done to a few turbos, worn the blades away!
Maybe the Calibra wasnt using the sensor that much, so whilst it was knackered, it wasnt actually noticable?
robski
11 July 2000, 10:50 AM
#23
rearange these words. Office ****ty at day the.
Apologies to pslewis, you are technically incorect though! I stand by my statements, just not the tone i posted them in.
cheers
john
(trying to chill out You have no idea how much i would love to drop some tablespaces on some of the asses i was working with yesterday!)
Apologies to pslewis, you are technically incorect though! I stand by my statements, just not the tone i posted them in.
cheers
john
(trying to chill out
You have no idea how much i would love to drop some tablespaces on some of the asses i was working with yesterday!)
11 July 2000, 12:36 PM
#26
Scooby Regular
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
John,
Reality check. You know more about engines that a lot of us do - dont get sh|tty with us because you do. Some people, might just like driving the things and only get interested in how a car works when something goes wrong or when they want to get more out of a car. We make wrong guesses or assumptions, no need to slam us.
If pslewis previous car worked even though it shouldnt do, your comments still stand - no need to get funny about it - it happens a lot. Tolerances... or maybe a slightly different type of sensor.
If you feel your contributions are beneath you as it is so obvious then I guess you are on the wrong BBS.
If you feel that open debate/discussion because your obviously right on all counts, is wrong, than you shouldnt be on any BBS.
I am interested in your comments, I find them interesting, but not in the associated insults.
Chill.... remove a few tablespaces and see if anyone notices....
bkar
Reality check. You know more about engines that a lot of us do - dont get sh|tty with us because you do. Some people, might just like driving the things and only get interested in how a car works when something goes wrong or when they want to get more out of a car. We make wrong guesses or assumptions, no need to slam us.
If pslewis previous car worked even though it shouldnt do, your comments still stand - no need to get funny about it - it happens a lot. Tolerances... or maybe a slightly different type of sensor.
If you feel your contributions are beneath you as it is so obvious then I guess you are on the wrong BBS.
If you feel that open debate/discussion because your obviously right on all counts, is wrong, than you shouldnt be on any BBS.
I am interested in your comments, I find them interesting, but not in the associated insults.
Chill.... remove a few tablespaces and see if anyone notices....
bkar
11 July 2000, 01:07 PM
#27
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 809
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There seems to be some confusion as to what the Octane rating of a fuel is. A higher octane fuel is not a 'magic' fuel with more energy in it.
The octane rating of a fuel is entirely a measurement of how 'controlled' the burn is in a combustion chamber. It's not worked out mathematically but by experiment with a combustion chamber on a bench under strict conditions.
Now I know this only because I researched it after melting engine number one. I'm certainly no expert on engine management, but
With a higher Ron level fuel, the burn is more controlled, notably the difference in temp between the flame edges in the burning fuel air mixture are less than in a lower Ron (less controlled burn) fuel. So, higher Ron = less hot spots in combustion chamber.
The way this could produce more power is -
you can now have a higher temparature / pressure mix in the inlet (ie more boost) but the temparature will stay low enough in the combustion chamber that the mix does not pre-ignite (detonate) before the spark plug fires.
I don't know anything about Scooby Engine Management systems however.
Aplogies for any inaccuracy or offensive given by this post
Gary
The octane rating of a fuel is entirely a measurement of how 'controlled' the burn is in a combustion chamber. It's not worked out mathematically but by experiment with a combustion chamber on a bench under strict conditions.
Now I know this only because I researched it after melting engine number one. I'm certainly no expert on engine management, but
With a higher Ron level fuel, the burn is more controlled, notably the difference in temp between the flame edges in the burning fuel air mixture are less than in a lower Ron (less controlled burn) fuel. So, higher Ron = less hot spots in combustion chamber.
The way this could produce more power is -
you can now have a higher temparature / pressure mix in the inlet (ie more boost) but the temparature will stay low enough in the combustion chamber that the mix does not pre-ignite (detonate) before the spark plug fires.
I don't know anything about Scooby Engine Management systems however.
Aplogies for any inaccuracy or offensive given by this post
Gary
11 July 2000, 01:28 PM
#28
Good point Gary.
There is more than one way to get det, if you run too high a boost level (or too high a compresion ratio in N/A apps) for the fuel you are using then you can have pre-ignition detination, ie, the fuel ignites before the spark has fired.
What i have been talking about is not pre-ignition det but knock caused by running too advanced on the ignition firing for the fuel. That det can be controlled by backing off the ignition.
There are some tables available which shows what RON rating is required to run at what compression ratio without pre-ignition ocuring.
If you think about how a diesel engine functions, it actually uses as a benefit the same physics as would be a problem in a petrol engine.
A diesel uses a much higher compresion ratio and ignites the fuel by exploiting the presures in the cylinder, hence no spark plug to ignite the fuel.
Complicated buggers engines when you start to think about how they work, thats why i leave the mapping of my race, rally and road engines to people like Ahmed Bayjoo who have the knowledge and Equipment to get the most out of the engine safely.
There is more than one way to get det, if you run too high a boost level (or too high a compresion ratio in N/A apps) for the fuel you are using then you can have pre-ignition detination, ie, the fuel ignites before the spark has fired.
What i have been talking about is not pre-ignition det but knock caused by running too advanced on the ignition firing for the fuel. That det can be controlled by backing off the ignition.
There are some tables available which shows what RON rating is required to run at what compression ratio without pre-ignition ocuring.
If you think about how a diesel engine functions, it actually uses as a benefit the same physics as would be a problem in a petrol engine.
A diesel uses a much higher compresion ratio and ignites the fuel by exploiting the presures in the cylinder, hence no spark plug to ignite the fuel.
Complicated buggers engines when you start to think about how they work, thats why i leave the mapping of my race, rally and road engines to people like Ahmed Bayjoo who have the knowledge and Equipment to get the most out of the engine safely.
11 July 2000, 02:28 PM
#29
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 809
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for that explanation John, I think I understand what you've been getting at now.
If the ignition timing is retarded, the spark will start the burn earlier in the stroke (at less temp and pressure) ie before the mixture has a chance to detonate (uncontrolled explosion - instead of a linear burn).
A higher Ron fuel will allow a later (further advanced towards TDC) spark as the fuel / air mixture will allow a higher pressure / temp to be reached before detonation occurs.
Using a lower octane fuel but not retarding the timing will therefore produce knock.
Ha, I think I might finally understand what this knock business is all about. Now just to master 'pinking'.
As I said, I lost my 1st RS Turbo engine to something like this, I knew nothing at all about combustion and left it all up to a 'Professional' tuning company.
I've heard nothing but good words about Ahmed, Mr Rainbird also sings the praises. Has any Scooby owner approached him WRT tuning a Scooby ?. I've not noticed his name mentioned before (on this site) - but I have heard a lot of other tuning companies mentioned, I don't want to speculate on how good their 'Chips' really do map the timing ;-), anyone had a melted engine yet :-(
If the ignition timing is retarded, the spark will start the burn earlier in the stroke (at less temp and pressure) ie before the mixture has a chance to detonate (uncontrolled explosion - instead of a linear burn).
A higher Ron fuel will allow a later (further advanced towards TDC) spark as the fuel / air mixture will allow a higher pressure / temp to be reached before detonation occurs.
Using a lower octane fuel but not retarding the timing will therefore produce knock.
Ha, I think I might finally understand what this knock business is all about. Now just to master 'pinking'.
As I said, I lost my 1st RS Turbo engine to something like this, I knew nothing at all about combustion and left it all up to a 'Professional' tuning company.
I've heard nothing but good words about Ahmed, Mr Rainbird also sings the praises. Has any Scooby owner approached him WRT tuning a Scooby ?. I've not noticed his name mentioned before (on this site) - but I have heard a lot of other tuning companies mentioned, I don't want to speculate on how good their 'Chips' really do map the timing ;-), anyone had a melted engine yet :-(
11 July 2000, 03:02 PM
#30
Errrm Gary, pinking is another term for det mate.
Yes there have been a few cases of melted scoobie engines after remapps, plus some STi's on track melting.
As to Ahmed doing scoobies, it's gonna happen, Ahmed wont release anything into the public domain however until it is fully tested. His reputation is too good for him to risk doing anything else. (plus he is inundated with Cossie YB Work)
You will just have to be patient.
Yes there have been a few cases of melted scoobie engines after remapps, plus some STi's on track melting.
As to Ahmed doing scoobies, it's gonna happen, Ahmed wont release anything into the public domain however until it is fully tested. His reputation is too good for him to risk doing anything else. (plus he is inundated with Cossie YB Work)
You will just have to be patient.