100 RON Fuel, available nationwide, but you can't use Cats
12 July 2000, 07:28 PM
#61
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Its a real shame that when people on this bbs who genuinely have REAL knowledge and publish it that other ***** start getting arsey. This is the very reason why many good people dont bother to post on the BBS anymore and we are left with the other prats who discuss the cheapest motor oil etc.....First it was dodgy wax and now we're being punted unsuitable fuel. As i said before " a little knowledge is dangerous". If you cant comprehend what some one with vast wisdom says then just shut the **** up and learn some respect. Besides, all you lot punting unsuitable and more expensive fuel are the same people who dont want to spend money on decent care wax and "economise on everything possible"...what a ****ing hypocrisy.
PS...there isnt a spell check on here so dont slag people off who dont use it. It doesnt make what they say uncomprehendible so dont try and look smart by picking on nit **** things......that surely is a sign of classic ignorance and insecurity.
PS...there isnt a spell check on here so dont slag people off who dont use it. It doesnt make what they say uncomprehendible so dont try and look smart by picking on nit **** things......that surely is a sign of classic ignorance and insecurity.
12 July 2000, 08:00 PM
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Ignoring all of the above banter and slagging off.
John, could I tap your knowledge about methods of increasing octane? The reason is that my philosophy to make an STI run better is not to remap or whatever but to give the car the fuel it was desined around. So, we have 97 RON to start with as a base - what can we do cost-effectively to get to a reliable 100RON?
Octane boosters obviously, but Silkolene Pro-Boost eats no3 pistons. Millers Octane Plus-C and CVL seem to be recommended and I have tried Rockoil boost at half a tin per tankful to give approximately 98 RON. I was also concerned about the best method of getting it mixed evenly. I used to fill up halfway, pour in the booster, then fill up to the top.
Any suggestions please, John, and anybody else who is feeling constructive.
John, could I tap your knowledge about methods of increasing octane? The reason is that my philosophy to make an STI run better is not to remap or whatever but to give the car the fuel it was desined around. So, we have 97 RON to start with as a base - what can we do cost-effectively to get to a reliable 100RON?
Octane boosters obviously, but Silkolene Pro-Boost eats no3 pistons. Millers Octane Plus-C and CVL seem to be recommended and I have tried Rockoil boost at half a tin per tankful to give approximately 98 RON. I was also concerned about the best method of getting it mixed evenly. I used to fill up halfway, pour in the booster, then fill up to the top.
Any suggestions please, John, and anybody else who is feeling constructive.
12 July 2000, 09:51 PM
#64
Dave, your questions are very dificult to answer, your thinking is along the right lines of course.
If your car is designed for 100RON then it would make complete sense to use 100RON and then you can forget all the mods people are spending money on.
Sadly, there are no extensive tests being carried out by the fuel manufacturers and aditive companies that fill me with total confidence in the products available to buy off the shelf.
We use the ELF turbo FIA fuel in the rally car even though it is over £15 a gallon for a reason. It has been thoroughly tested in the field and on dyno's and works.
This fuel simply isnt viable for a road car so we have to look to other alternatives.
The things i do know at present are that in tests carried out by a cosworth tuning company i trust, millers Octane plus did eliminate det on a 400BHP escort cossie that was mapped on 98SUL originally and was now running on 97SUL, proboost in whatever mix they tried did absolutely nothing to stop the det.
Millers say it will raise the octane by aprox 2 points using their octane plus product.
Millers CVL is what i use on track, this acording to Millers raises the octane by 3 points, its original design purpose was as a valve lubricant in race engines running at high revs and this is why it is the ONLY fuel aditive allowed in UK motorsport by the MSA.
You cannot use CVL with a cat fitted, however the octane plus C is a product that seems to work based on real world tests people i know have carried out.
All i can advise is make your own decision on what aditives to use and then TEST them.
How do you do that?
Simple really, you need to test in the harshest environment you are going to see in your cars use, in my case that is on track at 140MPH plus full throttle.
You need someone with det cans who is experienced to sit in with you and in real world conditions see if you are sufering from det, if you are then you need to sort it out before you use the car in that environment.
As to how to mix it, pour all the aditive in the tank first, then fill up with fuel, that will give the best mix.
cheers
john
PS. MTR, your questions sound like demands! I know you have only good intentions and that is why i asked you to keep on asking the questions, but please dont word things in a way that is demanding me to do things, it winds me up.
If your car is designed for 100RON then it would make complete sense to use 100RON and then you can forget all the mods people are spending money on.
Sadly, there are no extensive tests being carried out by the fuel manufacturers and aditive companies that fill me with total confidence in the products available to buy off the shelf.
We use the ELF turbo FIA fuel in the rally car even though it is over £15 a gallon for a reason. It has been thoroughly tested in the field and on dyno's and works.
This fuel simply isnt viable for a road car so we have to look to other alternatives.
The things i do know at present are that in tests carried out by a cosworth tuning company i trust, millers Octane plus did eliminate det on a 400BHP escort cossie that was mapped on 98SUL originally and was now running on 97SUL, proboost in whatever mix they tried did absolutely nothing to stop the det.
Millers say it will raise the octane by aprox 2 points using their octane plus product.
Millers CVL is what i use on track, this acording to Millers raises the octane by 3 points, its original design purpose was as a valve lubricant in race engines running at high revs and this is why it is the ONLY fuel aditive allowed in UK motorsport by the MSA.
You cannot use CVL with a cat fitted, however the octane plus C is a product that seems to work based on real world tests people i know have carried out.
All i can advise is make your own decision on what aditives to use and then TEST them.
How do you do that?
Simple really, you need to test in the harshest environment you are going to see in your cars use, in my case that is on track at 140MPH plus full throttle.
You need someone with det cans who is experienced to sit in with you and in real world conditions see if you are sufering from det, if you are then you need to sort it out before you use the car in that environment.
As to how to mix it, pour all the aditive in the tank first, then fill up with fuel, that will give the best mix.
cheers
john
PS. MTR, your questions sound like demands! I know you have only good intentions and that is why i asked you to keep on asking the questions, but please dont word things in a way that is demanding me to do things, it winds me up.
13 July 2000, 01:56 AM
#66
OK, i have been doing some research on lambda sensor aging and failures.
Below is an extract From Bosch "REPORTER Written by Technicians for Technicians," October 1998:
Its the Bosch internal technical publication.
This is what they have to say. And this is the last i have to say on bloody lambda sensors myself!!
SENSOR AGING
Nothing lasts forever, and oxygen sensors are no exception. As an oxygen sensor, contaminants from normal combustion and oil ash accumulate on the sensing element. This reduces the sensor 's ability to respond quickly to changes in the air/fuel mixture. The sensor slows down and becomes "sluggish." At the same time, the sensor's output voltage may not be as high as it once was, giving the false impression that the air/fuel mixture is leaner than it actually is. The result can be a richer-than-normal air/fuel mixture under various operating conditions that causes fuel consumption and emissions to rise.
The problem may not be notice right away because the change in performance occurs gradually. But, over time, the situation will get worse, ultimately requiring the sensor to be replaced to restore peak engine performance.
SENSOR FAILURES
The normal aging process will eventually cause the oxygen sensor to fail. However, the sensor, may also fail prematurely if it becomes contaminated with lead from leaded gasoline, phosphorous from excessive oil consumption, or silicone from internal coolant leaks or using silicone sprays or gasket sealers on the engine. Environmental factors such as road splash, salt, oil, and dirt can also cause a sensor to fail, as can mechanical stress or mishandling.
A dead sensor will prevent the onboard computer from making the necessary air/fuel corrections, causing the air/fuel mixture to run rich in the "open loop" mode f operation, resulting in much higher fuel consumption and emissions.
An additional consequence of an O2 sensor failure may be damage to the catalytic converter. A rich operating condition causes the converter to run hotter than normal. If the converter gets hot enough, the catalyst substrate inside may actually melt forming a partial or complete blockage. The result can be a drastic drop in highway performance or stalling because of a buildup of backpressure in the exhaust system.
WEEDING OUT THE BAD ONES
Although some vehicles have an oxygen sensor "reminder" light to alert the driver when it is time to check the oxygen sensor, most do not. So, unless there's a noticeable driveability problem or a "Check Engine" light on, most motorists have no way of knowing if their oxygen sensor is functioning properly or not.
The growth of emissions testing nationwide is changing that, along with the introduction of new "enhanced" emissions testing programs that simulate real world driving conditions while emissions are being measured. The latest is proving to be very effective at catching emissions problems that formerly escaped detection.
According to a study conducted by Sierra Research, Inc., in 1996, oxygen sensor failure is the "single greatest source of excessive emissions for fuel-injected vehicles" and the second most significant cause of high emissions in carbureted engines.
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the California Air Resource Board (CARB) have found that oxygen sensor replacement was required on 42-58% of all vehicles that were subjected to an emissions check and found to be emitting high level s of hydrocarbons (HC) or Carbon monoxide (CO). Checking the operation of the oxygen sensor and the feedback system, therefore, should always be a priority anytime a vehicle fails an emissions test due to high HC or CO.
Sensor performance can be checked by reading the sensor's output voltage to make sure it corresponds with the air/fuel mixture (low when lean, high when rich). The voltage signal can also be displayed as a waveform on an oscilloscope to make sure the signal is changing back and forth from rich to lean and is responding quickly enough to changes in the air/fuel ratio
O2 SENSOR REPLACEMENT FOR PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE
To minimize the consequences of normal aging, Bosch recommends oxygen sensor replacement for preventative maintenance at the following intervals:
Unheated O2 sensors on 1976 to early 1990s application: every 30,000 to 50,000 miles.
Heated (1st generation) O2 sensors on mid-1980's to mid-1990's applications: every 60,000 miles.
Heated (2nd generation) O2 sensors on mid-1990s and up applications: every 100,000 miles.
Keeping the sensor fresh may improve fuel economy as much as 10-15% (which can save $100 each year in fuel costs on the average). Keeping the sensor in good operating condition will also minimize exhaust emissions, reduce the risk of costly damage to the catalytic converter, and ensure peak engine performance (no surging or hesitating).
For these reasons, the O2 sensor should be considered a "tune-up" replacement item just like spark plugs, especially on older vehicles (those built before the mid-1990's).
Below is an extract From Bosch "REPORTER Written by Technicians for Technicians," October 1998:
Its the Bosch internal technical publication.
This is what they have to say. And this is the last i have to say on bloody lambda sensors myself!!
SENSOR AGING
Nothing lasts forever, and oxygen sensors are no exception. As an oxygen sensor, contaminants from normal combustion and oil ash accumulate on the sensing element. This reduces the sensor 's ability to respond quickly to changes in the air/fuel mixture. The sensor slows down and becomes "sluggish." At the same time, the sensor's output voltage may not be as high as it once was, giving the false impression that the air/fuel mixture is leaner than it actually is. The result can be a richer-than-normal air/fuel mixture under various operating conditions that causes fuel consumption and emissions to rise.
The problem may not be notice right away because the change in performance occurs gradually. But, over time, the situation will get worse, ultimately requiring the sensor to be replaced to restore peak engine performance.
SENSOR FAILURES
The normal aging process will eventually cause the oxygen sensor to fail. However, the sensor, may also fail prematurely if it becomes contaminated with lead from leaded gasoline, phosphorous from excessive oil consumption, or silicone from internal coolant leaks or using silicone sprays or gasket sealers on the engine. Environmental factors such as road splash, salt, oil, and dirt can also cause a sensor to fail, as can mechanical stress or mishandling.
A dead sensor will prevent the onboard computer from making the necessary air/fuel corrections, causing the air/fuel mixture to run rich in the "open loop" mode f operation, resulting in much higher fuel consumption and emissions.
An additional consequence of an O2 sensor failure may be damage to the catalytic converter. A rich operating condition causes the converter to run hotter than normal. If the converter gets hot enough, the catalyst substrate inside may actually melt forming a partial or complete blockage. The result can be a drastic drop in highway performance or stalling because of a buildup of backpressure in the exhaust system.
WEEDING OUT THE BAD ONES
Although some vehicles have an oxygen sensor "reminder" light to alert the driver when it is time to check the oxygen sensor, most do not. So, unless there's a noticeable driveability problem or a "Check Engine" light on, most motorists have no way of knowing if their oxygen sensor is functioning properly or not.
The growth of emissions testing nationwide is changing that, along with the introduction of new "enhanced" emissions testing programs that simulate real world driving conditions while emissions are being measured. The latest is proving to be very effective at catching emissions problems that formerly escaped detection.
According to a study conducted by Sierra Research, Inc., in 1996, oxygen sensor failure is the "single greatest source of excessive emissions for fuel-injected vehicles" and the second most significant cause of high emissions in carbureted engines.
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the California Air Resource Board (CARB) have found that oxygen sensor replacement was required on 42-58% of all vehicles that were subjected to an emissions check and found to be emitting high level s of hydrocarbons (HC) or Carbon monoxide (CO). Checking the operation of the oxygen sensor and the feedback system, therefore, should always be a priority anytime a vehicle fails an emissions test due to high HC or CO.
Sensor performance can be checked by reading the sensor's output voltage to make sure it corresponds with the air/fuel mixture (low when lean, high when rich). The voltage signal can also be displayed as a waveform on an oscilloscope to make sure the signal is changing back and forth from rich to lean and is responding quickly enough to changes in the air/fuel ratio
O2 SENSOR REPLACEMENT FOR PREVENTATIVE MAINTENANCE
To minimize the consequences of normal aging, Bosch recommends oxygen sensor replacement for preventative maintenance at the following intervals:
Unheated O2 sensors on 1976 to early 1990s application: every 30,000 to 50,000 miles.
Heated (1st generation) O2 sensors on mid-1980's to mid-1990's applications: every 60,000 miles.
Heated (2nd generation) O2 sensors on mid-1990s and up applications: every 100,000 miles.
Keeping the sensor fresh may improve fuel economy as much as 10-15% (which can save $100 each year in fuel costs on the average). Keeping the sensor in good operating condition will also minimize exhaust emissions, reduce the risk of costly damage to the catalytic converter, and ensure peak engine performance (no surging or hesitating).
For these reasons, the O2 sensor should be considered a "tune-up" replacement item just like spark plugs, especially on older vehicles (those built before the mid-1990's).
13 July 2000, 02:10 PM
#67
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Can I just clarify to MTR, that legally you are an expert if you have practised in a field for at least ten years. i believe that includes Jon on the subject of sensors anyway.
The other thing was that some of us have been here for some time and as such have built up a bit of reputation for their knowledge on given subjects, for example Bob Rawle, Pat Herborn, J (aka firefox), jon felstead, moray mackenzie (hate to admit it but I respect his opinion), and even Mike Rainbird.
There are others but i apologise if I have excluded you from my examples lists.
These people are probably aware of the reputation they have and so is it not fair for them to post a bold statement without having eachtime to justify their statements by showing their credentials.
surely you would be better off researching their posts than attacking them for trying to help?
The other thing was that some of us have been here for some time and as such have built up a bit of reputation for their knowledge on given subjects, for example Bob Rawle, Pat Herborn, J (aka firefox), jon felstead, moray mackenzie (hate to admit it but I respect his opinion), and even Mike Rainbird.
There are others but i apologise if I have excluded you from my examples lists.
These people are probably aware of the reputation they have and so is it not fair for them to post a bold statement without having eachtime to justify their statements by showing their credentials.
surely you would be better off researching their posts than attacking them for trying to help?
13 July 2000, 08:09 PM
#69
MTR, just to clarify.
The sensor relies on the platinum staying pure in order to give an acurate reading of oxygen ratio.
The platinum tiped plugs are used to generate a spark and have no output, they simply are used to provide a clean spark. The surface of the electrodes on the plug runs at 1000's of degrees and every spark erodes the tip slightly. It has been found that platinum erodes far slower than coper or steel tips under these circumstances and its properties change very slowly. that is why it has become a very popular material in production cars as it lasts much longer than the traditional materials and enables the 10,000 mile plus service intervals now seen as the norm.
Most people dont realise this but as a copper plug ages the conductivity of its electrodes reduces as the spark hardens the copper as it erodes, its not just the gap increasing, its the material properties changing also. This doesnt happen to the same extent with platinum.
So getting back to the original question. A lambda sensor and a spark plug are completely diferent apps for the same material. Its like compairing anything made from the same materials and saying why does it work here but not here, just because its in an engine has nothing to do with compatibility issues, totally different circumstances.
The sensor relies on the platinum staying pure in order to give an acurate reading of oxygen ratio.
The platinum tiped plugs are used to generate a spark and have no output, they simply are used to provide a clean spark. The surface of the electrodes on the plug runs at 1000's of degrees and every spark erodes the tip slightly. It has been found that platinum erodes far slower than coper or steel tips under these circumstances and its properties change very slowly. that is why it has become a very popular material in production cars as it lasts much longer than the traditional materials and enables the 10,000 mile plus service intervals now seen as the norm.
Most people dont realise this but as a copper plug ages the conductivity of its electrodes reduces as the spark hardens the copper as it erodes, its not just the gap increasing, its the material properties changing also. This doesnt happen to the same extent with platinum.
So getting back to the original question. A lambda sensor and a spark plug are completely diferent apps for the same material. Its like compairing anything made from the same materials and saying why does it work here but not here, just because its in an engine has nothing to do with compatibility issues, totally different circumstances.
13 July 2000, 10:03 PM
#71
Scooby Regular
SENSOR FAILURES
The normal aging process will eventually cause the oxygen sensor to fail. However, the sensor, may also fail prematurely if it becomes contaminated with lead from leaded gasoline
---------------------------------------------
Thanks for that John - I think the operative word used by Bosch sums it all up .. 'MAY'
Obviously for some reason mine in the Calibra was one that got through with no damage .... other Lambda Sensors 'MAY' get damaged.
Ask Bosch about lead and CATS and they will say ... quite correctly ... that lead 'WILL' damage your CAT - so some doubt exsists in the mind of Bosch regarding the Lambda Sensor
You never cease to amaze with your knowledge John - I take my hat off to you
pete
The normal aging process will eventually cause the oxygen sensor to fail. However, the sensor, may also fail prematurely if it becomes contaminated with lead from leaded gasoline
---------------------------------------------
Thanks for that John - I think the operative word used by Bosch sums it all up .. 'MAY'
Obviously for some reason mine in the Calibra was one that got through with no damage .... other Lambda Sensors 'MAY' get damaged.
Ask Bosch about lead and CATS and they will say ... quite correctly ... that lead 'WILL' damage your CAT - so some doubt exsists in the mind of Bosch regarding the Lambda Sensor
You never cease to amaze with your knowledge John - I take my hat off to you
pete
13 July 2000, 11:05 PM
#72
no, no, no, no ,no!!!!
You are reading the sentence how you want it to read!!
Stick your head in the sand if you like, its just a phrasing they have used.
ahhhhhhhhh, i give up!
You are reading the sentence how you want it to read!!
Stick your head in the sand if you like, its just a phrasing they have used.
ahhhhhhhhh, i give up!
14 July 2000, 05:55 PM
#73
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Hey Dave, what info do you have on Silkolene Proboost killing no.3. The reason why is my STi3 has developed a noisey no.3 and it only appeared after using the correct amount of Proboost / tank for a couple of months?
Cheers
H
Cheers
H
14 July 2000, 10:10 PM
#74
Scooby Regular
No I think I read right John - they said MAY and may mean may??? maybe???
Pete
A level English this end by the way or are you a smart **** in English Literature aswell?? youve got to smile !!
Pete
A level English this end by the way or are you a smart **** in English Literature aswell??
youve got to smile !!
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