ex-webby

Hi All

IMPORTANT - PLEASE READ THIS POST AND ALL POSTS BY WEBMASTER BEFORE REPLYING. If you ask a question or state something that has already been clarified, your post will be removed or your question ignored. Apologies for how this sounds, it is purely to save time.

As is our normal policy, we would like to discuss this with the community prior to acting.

Group Buys cause scoobynet and the community a big problem. They are great for the few that are involved in that actual group buy, but have the following problems :

- Clutter up the Forums
- Devalue the advertising on scoobynet
- Create tension as non-advertisers have been known to ask their mate to post a group buy as they cannot do it themselves
- Take Business away from the supportive paying advertisers that help fund the continuation of scoobynet
- Create major grief when people don't come through with their promises (either the organiser, or the participants)

The result of this is that we need to regulate them somehow.

I would be very interested in suggestions as to the way we could do this whilst taking the following points into account :

1) The facility is a benefit (if managed correctly) to the community, so we should not ban them completely
2) It must be easy to administer and not take up lots of time.
3) It must remove the clutter from the general forums
4) It must show accountability from the seller and buyer's point of view so that people are not let down
5) It must not devalue the advertising on scoobynet and be a detriment to the paying advertisers

My suggestions to get things started would be something along these lines..

- Create two new forums : Group Buy Requests, and Official Group Buys
- People post in the group buy requests forum in a specific format (we may change the software so that it not like a post) members can vote that they want to be a part of it if the price is right, and authorised advertisers can bid for it.
- Once agreed, the thread will be created in the Official Group Buy forum but the authorised advertiser that won the bid (as voted by the participants)
- People can then register for the group buy in a way similar to the voting, and the vendor places a minimum number and a closing date.
- If this is reached, the deal goes ahead.

- Only authorised advertisers can start a group buy.

---

Let us know what you think / suggestions. The above is no way final, and not even complete as there are gaping holes in it. So we'll turn to you for your comments.

Thanks in advance

Simon

ex-webby

No replies?

If we don't hear anything from you, we'll assume you're not that bothered either way and will impliment what we see fit.

All the best

Simon

Fatman

I think it's quite right that Group Buys have their own forum. In fact, the "official group buy" idea seems to work on NASIOC (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/foru...hp?&forumid=78).

I don't agree that GBs should be tied to paid-up advertisers. Their products may not necessarily be the best choice for the 'community'. For example, overseas suppliers may represent a better offer to the 'community' due to favourable exchange rates. Those supppliers may not advertise here since it's not a local market to them. Why should the community be denied the best deal?

If you do wish to associate GBs with a SN LTD revenue stream, then make the GB forum a subscriber-only facility. I don't, personally, think the 'community' would find that acceptable.

There have been a number of very successful 'community' GBs. If someone proves to "not come through with their promises" then rate them accordingly (the previously mentioned SN v3 rating system). Effectively warn people that the community doesn't see person X as a good GB organiser.

SirFozzalot

Sounds like a good idea to get them all in one place and the idea of adding names like the poll system sounds quick and easy.

This is the only bit I can see turning people away. From what I can see it is normally just a community member who tries to get a good deal from a dealer rather than a dealer approaching the Subaru community.

Just my thoughts.

ex-webby

Hi Fatman

That sounds great, but it doesn't address the problems of devaluing the advertising on scoobynet (as these things are in direct competition with advertisers at times) and the problem of traders using their mates or an annonymous account to basically generate loads of business without paying for it.

I'm sure we can work this out if we all pull together and put our minds to it.

All the best

Simon

PS. Thank you for the reply.

ex-webby

Understand your concerns about the community usually looking for these...

the deal would be that the community would request in one forum, and then once agreed, the vendor that is supplying would run the group buy.

SirFozzalot

Ahhhh...I see! D'oh!

Sounds like a good idea to me in principle....I guess the "proof would be in the pudding" so to speak and see if the dealers would make it worth their while to pay the advertisers fee aswell as give the discount.

Maybe some of the people who have organised group buys in the past could run the idea past their contacts to see if they would still have done it if they had to pay the advertising fee.


Edited to add: I am assuming there is some sort of fee to become an authorised advertiser

ex-webby

hmm

currently the only way you become an authorised advertiser is if you run a banner advert.

Maybe there is an interim level type as Fatman suggests for a smaller fee?

The difficulty is that £25 (let's say) is cheep if you're doing a group buy on AP Brake kits, but expensive if you're doing stickers!

If you do it on a percentage of sales, it's almost impossible to administer effectively. If you do it on a percentage of the item price, it's cheep if you're selling 300 of them, but expensive if you're selling 5.

Very difficult.

Probably the only way to go if we do this would be to make it a fee per month, and then they can offer as many group buys as they like in that time? Could also get out of hand.

thoughts?

Cheers

Simon

BOB.T

Should that read 'by' and not 'but'? bit picky I know but....

Your plan seems fair enough to me. What happens on products not covered by existing ad holders, ie pies

subarujimmy

iTrader: (3)

I like the idea of a group buy forum.
I have never purchased through a group-buy, but i do not see them as "cluttering up the forum".
I also think that allowing only scoobynet-advertisers to sell items is a poor idea, because this: 1, may reduce the quality and/or content of items we are offered and 2, may see an increase in the prices being quoted due to overheads.
All IMHO only, cheers-jimmy

ex-webby

Bob

The simplest suggestion would be that they need to become an advertiser to make use of the business. Which seems fair enough to me. They will earn a lot of money, and get a lot of exposure for this sale, so they should really be paying for it, or it's unfair to the companies that do.

All the best

Simon

Fatman

I like the idea of the poll/voting forum. I think there's useful mileage in that idea.

IMO I don't think the alleged 'advertising dilution' is really a community concern. The 'community' (IMO) needs...
(1) the right product
(2) at the right price
(3) a well-organised GB

...the ability to deliver 1 and 2 have no bearing whatsoever on which companies have bought SN advertising space. An authorised advertiser may represent the best deal, but it's not implicit/automatic. Please separate 'community' benefit from SN LTD risk (re: advertising purchases).

Regarding element (3); I guess this comes down to trust. Some firms and some individuals can be trusted, some cannot. This cannot be foolproof but, again, this could tie-in with the user rating system. Who does/should the community trust? Mods? Organisers of previously successful GBs? Members respected by other members?

You're right, there is a risk that rogue individuals may try to arrange GBs for their mates. I'm not sure how to combat that yet.

I don't advocate the subscriber-only GB forum. I don't think this is in the greater interests of the 'community'.

Jza

Great idea... i suggested this ages ago

Jza

Blairc

This might sound like a load of bollox but here goes, in the GB forum the request for a group buy is posted ANY delaer wishing to "tender" a bid on this group buy can do so and post prices , pics delivery costs the lot on this post. This maintains full visibility for everyone. This is where it now gets difficult, a premium is then added to any dealer who does not have a Banner ad on Scoobynet which will be divided between the cost of the GB members. Once the GB is complete the dealer makes the premium payment to Scoobynet and everyone is a winner (well I hope so!!).

Sorry if it sounds confusing but it`s the best way I can describe it quickly at work.

Cheers,

Chris.

Fatman

...a ScoobyNet tax? Interesting.

Mister_DJ

How about,

create new forums as suggested The person who requested the group buy is free to contact any supplier they choose for pricing but must get a written quote from them as proof of GB costs. Authorised advertisers can they be given the opportunity to match or better the quoted price. If successful, the authorised advertiser gets to run the group buy. If not then the topic starter (or other, who wants to accept the responsability) gets to manage the GB as now.

Just a suggestion - don't shoot me down in flames

Phil

Its a difficult one

Surley if you have a forum for parts wanted on a group buy you are going to get everybody posting for everything.?

Unless you meant that poster would organise the GB


I think its going to be very difficult balancing your advertisers interests with GB's IMHO

But you never know someone may come up with a brain wave


Phil

Fatman

Sounds like a form of contract. Perhaps it would be possible to draw-up a template contract that places certain obligations on all parties involved in a GB. For example, T&Cs under which a buyer may withdraw from a GB. T&Cs between the organiser and supplier (for a indirect GB), or T&Cs between the supplier and buyers (for a direct GB). That contract would also cover the price structure of the GB, e.g. 1 to 10 units = 10% discount, 10 to 15 = .. etc.

Phil

You still have to deal with NON Banner ad suppliers upsetting Banner ad Suppliers

thecirsch

Just a thought,

If it is an 'authorised supplier' could the GB not be placed in the Scoobyshop/ScoobyNetPlus forum. It seems the most suitable venue.

Ed

Mister_DJ

Webmaster - have you spoken to any of your advertisers for thier suggestions?

Buzzer

Simon

I ran a very succesful GB on Knocklinks and Sensors a short while ago and i think we shifted about 35 units at around £98.00 per unit.

I think everyone was happy with the way it went and i was really a middle man, co-ordinating the GB. I took no reciept of money, everything went straight to the distributor / seller and i made nothing (the true spirit of a GB).

I see no reason why SN cant take responsibility for the co-ordination or should i say the vendor take the co-ordination of the GB on SN.

I dont think the vendors could monopolise this between themselves as there will always be someone on here who "price checks" the GB with outside suppliers.

The vendor will push the product to try and get more peeps interested and as such reduce his cost for advertisement, maybe a free GB ad banner to the succesful tenderer would also help?

I agree that a % of the final overall value of the product should be charged to the vendor but i also think that anyone taking up a GB which vendors weren't interested in, should be FOC.

If no-one takes up the request for a GB on a certain product, does that mean that the individual can take this over on his own, FOC if he is a SN+ member?

Also can any supplier come in and pay an enhanced fee to manage a group buy? This would assure the community and discourage possible price rigging by vendors.

Maybe an ebay type score could be given to "good" GB'ers on SN

Pete

Molds

I dont like the idea that only banner advertisers will be eligible for supplying goods to group buys. It removes freedom of choice to the indivdual and possibly a better deal, but I do understand the need to be fair to those paying for their advertising.

So, I do like the idea of a SN "tax" to be levied at the supplier if they are not a paid up advertiser.

Definitely a specific forum/forums for GBs rather than having them scattered about in General. This will benefit everyone by keeping General "cleaner" with the added bonus that I know exactly where to look if I am in the market for some new goodies.

Tone Loc

iTrader: (1)

The group buy forum has been requested for months.... it's about time something was done after all the requests.

However limiting this to only advertisers (i.e scoobynet plc gets money from ) would rob the community of many great group buys. Harveys FMIC, Fatman's Gruppe S etc i feel would not have gone ahead if the vendor had to pay scoobynet some money for the honour. Remember these companies were based in Hong Kong and the US. I could list a load more than IMHO the vendor wouldn't want to pay for.

This strikes me as yet another way for scoobynet to make money..... Scoobynet really seems to have turned into a money making scheme over the years

I of course stand to be corrected.

Tony.

Fatman

I've also organised a successful GB (last summer, on Gruppe-S exhaust manifolds). They were an overseas supplier, and it made for good value for 'community' members. Again, I was a middleman and made no profit. 'Private' GBs can work, but it takes a trustworthy person to ensure it does work (supplier aside).

I've also found exceptional value from buying other parts overseas -- I found savings far greater than UK suppliers could manage. Those suppliers wouldn't advertise on SN since it's principally a UK 'community'.

Those are two reasons I feel strongly that future regulation of GBs should not be restricted too much. It simply wouldn't be in the community interest.

The notion of a "SN tax" also isn't in the interests of the 'community'. How could it be? It increases the unit cost. Such a "tax" would benefit SN LTD, but not the 'community'.

sillysi

I like the idea of a tax being levied on non-advertisers. It could be a nominal amount of say £1 for everyone who bought an item in the GB, so if 30 people purchase then the supplier pays SN £30. The supplier could add the £1 to everones order then he does not loose out. I am not saying it should be £1, it may need to be more. Also the seperate forums are a good idea.

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

Simon,

I really can't agree that they 'cause scoobynet and the community a big problem'. In fact, seeing people collaborating for the common good is a heart-warming sight to see - community spirit at its best.

It sounds like your main concern is that the group buys aren't all from your advertisers - there's a conflict of interests. The whole point of an internet forum is that it gives the ability for people to share information in a completely unbiased way as to which companies, products and services are the best. Companies win and lose business from members based entirely on how they've treated other members. In theory at least, those companies who deserve our business, get our business.

Advertising, however, is completely un-vetted in this way. Any company can pay for an ad, whether their product is any good or not. All the ad does is make people aware that a product or service is available - it's no guarantee of quality. Both advertisers and community members know this. Of course there is overlap - some really good firms do advertise on SN - but there are firms that deserve our business that do not advertise, and there are (in theory at least!) those who are less deserving that do.

So, I feel that restricting group buys to advertisers only would be to do the community a huge disservice. I also can't see any company paying for an ad just to be allowed to bid for a group buy - the internal bureaucracy in many companies would make it impossible, and the way a GB works is by cutting margins. The money just isn't there.

I say leave them be. Maybe introduce rules about who handles the money, to protect those who take part, but don't restrict the community's freedom to shop where it likes. If you're worried about devaluing the banner ads, you may as well ban any post making a recommendation of a product or service that isn't advertised - after all, word of mouth carries a lot more credibility than something that's been paid for.

Have you actually received complaints from advertisers?

Jay m A

iTrader: (2)

I agree wholeheartedly with Fatman and Tone Loc, the Hybrid and Gruppe-s GB are a case point.

Simon, how would these GB's have gone ahead with the GB proposal in the opening thread.

Its not as if these companies are going to come to scoobynet and 'bid' for a price, or pay for the priviledge when 99% of their sales is outside the SN bubble, sorry outside the SN advertisers UK customer base.

pblakeway

I have participated in a couple of group buys and have been impressed (apart from the latest one (indiglo guages) ) i always thought they worked on the principle of an individual wanting to lower the price of an item so gets a few people together to buy at more trade terms.
If there is a further payment to be made ie to scoobynet, then this will have the effect of an increase in price to the final buyer. I cant see this being good for the 'community' as we will all end up paying more.
Also if the group buys were restricted to authorised advertisers then we would not get the individuals going off to find the best deals, all we would have is a discount structure for scoobynet, isnt this catered for in the scoobyshop anyway ?

ex-webby

Fatman

The problem is that scoobynet needs advertisers in order to survive. So it is a community concern. Shaun, myself, ScoobyNet and the advertisers are all part of the community as well.

Without any of those elements, scoobynet would not work, the same as it would not work without the members.

Mister DJ

I've spoken to various advertisers about this over the last couple of years on and off. But never found a definitive viable solution.

Tone Loc

Calm down. The reasons why this is necessary have been detailed. Please join everyone else in trying to find a way to solve the problems, not just attack the suggestions that have been made - make some of your own.

"Tax" the supplier

The problem with this is as stated previously. £1 is cheep if your product costs £200, and expensive if it costs £2. I also don't like the idea that we will be actually raising the cost of the products for the members. I would rather have a flat fee for being able to use the facility, and leave it to the vendors to make best use of it.

AndyC

Please see my reply to Fatman at the top of this post as it answers your post also.

Jay m A

That's ok. No need to get completely despondent. Like I said above. please come up with some solutions, rather than simply slating the ones we've put forward.

I suggest that the group buy proposer is able to add bids including company details, etc as well??

---

We have to remember this. Companies run group buys for a reason. To make money. Companies run banner adverts for a reason. To make money. The group buys generate instant large sales and massive exposure for the company selling them, and are currently free of charge. Why would you want to pay to advertise?

It cannot continue how it is currently, as it has (as all things like this do) escalated out of control. We have had a number of cases of people abusing this freedom, which has spoilt it for everyone else.

Thanks for all the ideas so far, keep them coming.

Cheers

Simon