DJB

I keep reading about understeer supposedly inherent in scoobs. I've actually been trying hard to get my car to understeer without much success. I'm talking about enthusiastic public road driving only since I've not yet had the opportunity to take the car round a track.

Lets say the road is dry. I hammer up to a tight corner, slam on the brakes then turn in hard and steer it round with the throttle - slight oversteer is the rule rather than understeer.

The only exception to this is if I go round a wet round-about hard in too high a gear. I get wash-out understeer then, but I would expect that for crap driving.

Is my scoob different (5dr MY98) or am I just not going fast enough?

D.



[This message has been edited by DJB (edited 08-06-2000).]

simes

Sounds to me like you're going plenty fast enough for public roads

I've read somewhere (presumably buried somewhere in this bulletin board) that 5 doors actually handle in stock form better than the 4 doors, maybe the extra weight (I assume there is some) balances the car better?

Just the ramblings of a complete idiot, probably.

Cheers

Simon

JamesH

On a serious note, what I said in the first para is doable. It is NOT something that I would advocate people do on a regular basis or without knowing what they are doing.

It is a result of the transference of power/grip between the front & the rear. Set the car up to begin the turn then put your foot down. You are then at a steering angle & putting too much power throught the front wheels, you understeer and power transfers to the rear. Because of the attitude of the car with the extra power the rear will begin to swing out a bit. In the meantime with less power going through the fronts, they regain traction & pull you through the corner (but only after a little slide & a slight sphincter clench )

This is how I understand it. Simon de Sideways will put it better I'm sure In fact we had a very precise post on it about 8/9 months ago, but I'm damned if I can locate it.

It is very much a bottle-job. If you do decide to have a go, make sure the road has a good run-off area and for heavens sake don't bottle it when the front starts to slide or you will crash. Works best at speeds of around 30-40mph.

Same disclaimer as above

AKA Puff The Magic Wagon!

MorayMackenzie

James isn't joking when he says you must not follow his advice. Trying to deliberately understeer towards a brick wall and then flooring it is more likely to bury the side and/or rear of your car in the wall than pulling you out of danger, therefore it is a Bad Idea (tm, licensed from Pat ).
If it's a joke, it could do with an appropriate smiley or four!

James does have a good point about trying this in a large empty carpark with a cone in place of the corner. Much better still, get yourself booked in on one of Don Palmers Wetter the Better days at MIRA, this should be given away free with any insurance policy on a group 20 car .

Moray

Martin Cook

I think this post is quite plainly stupid.
Many thanks to Moray for going the sensible route and giving proper advice.

Martin

Rich_R

On the subject of 4 vs 5dr handling I've added the following to my MY00 4 dr.

Prodrive settings
ALK
uprated anti roll bar (rear)

Now feels quite similar in handling to my old MY97 5dr with standard settings/parts.

Rich

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

DJB

Try this...

Come up to a T junction faster than you would think you should safely do (make sure there is a brick wall on the other side of the road). Go past your normal turn-in point before turning in. When you start to understeer (you will), don't back off but PUT YOUR FOOT DOWN!

Wah-heyyyyy! You go round the corner! How? (Cue post from Simon de Sideways )

I am the original BBS cr*p driver but unless your car has geometry changes and/or tyre changes and/or suspension changes, then you are not approaching the corners in the best aspect. Before geometry & tyre changes, I could get the car to wash on roundabouts at will in the wet. Slow corners in the dry also but flowing corners wet/dry then you are going as fast as you judge fit & you are holding back so therefore don't u/steer.

Find some really wide corners (like a cone in an empty car-park) & experiment in reasonable safety. Then "prodrive" the geometry & try again - you will be amazed at the different corner speeds & responsiveness.

Have fun

AKA JamesH

(Disclaimer - Please note that I am known throughout this BBS & that of the RSOC as a CR*P DRIVER so therefore any injury to any person or machine or property resulting from any aledged "advice" that I may be construed as having given is totally the responsibility of any party that believes it. All statements made are to the best of my knowledge true & verifiable by me {with my driving} though I am not responsible for people that believe what I say is the whole truth)

CYA

DJB

Thanks for all your advice. I don't think I'll try the brickwall corner though. I do occasionally drive fast but NEVER recklessly on public roads and if I do take a corner fast, I always make sure there's no oncoming trafic.

I think that an empty car park or a track day would the only way to experiment with the car at the limit.

D.

MorayMackenzie

Again an "interesting" post...

...Still, James has failed to mention the need to control any oversteer induced by such antics... oh well, I suppose if they are lucky enough to miss the wall then they may just have enough luck left to let them instinctively work the steering correction bit out as it happens... ho hum.

Don't just try this guy's advice on public roads, it could well end in tears and a then more tears at insurance renewal time, that is, assuming you don't fishtail it into someone and kill them.

The MIRA course is about the safest and most effective way to find out how these cars really work on the limit.

I suspect that SimonDB will have posted a more accurate account about the mechanics behind this... if you are interested in more info, try an archive search, or look at the 4wd techniques section on the

MorayMackenzie

PS: James, have a look at the drivingtechniques website... I wonder if you could use a scandinavian flick to get you out of your wet-road/t-junction/brick wall situation?!

Moray
(Tongue very firmly harnessed into cheek! )

Triggaaar

Has anyone crashed yet?

You do not stop understeer by putting on the power - you can compensate for understeer by putting on the power (ie, get the whole car sliding rather than just the front).

The understeer in the first place was not caused by too much power from the front wheels, and it is not compensated by more power from the rear wheels. Obviously on a race track, where you have room for sliding, getting the power on early is a good thing. But on public roads, powering out when understeering is not the only option.

Easing off the power (not slaming on the brakes) will transfer more force to the front wheels, increasing their grip, and reducing understeer - if this is too dramatic, it will lead to oversteer and a lovely spin

Have a go at adding the power at an airfield though!

turboke

I can tell you that a 5-door MY98 with Prodrive-suspension and a struth-brace is the best handling Impreza you can buy!
With scoobysport-backbox up to 236 HP and 336 NM!

JamesH

Moray

You don't actually oversteer. The car is slightly unsettled towards oversteer which allows the attitude of the car to help allow the front wheels to grip.

I better put it on the record that you can only do this in a 4wd / AWD car.

You can do this in the dry

Trig

I've never crashed. I have (was before prodrived geometry) done it often on the scoob (safely too) & in a 4x4 Granda Scorpio

Simon De Sideways

Where are you? Explain this in the correct manner please!

SDB

Hi James

I'm actually breaking up my holiday in spain because of your requests!!!

The way I see it though..
I understand what you are saying but I think the result of this antic was produced through good will rather than anything else .

If the car is understeering, there are two things which will make it worse, 1) more steering (in the same direction), 2) more power.

What may have happened is that the power overwhelmed all wheels which put you into an instant 4 wheel powerslide. This is all very well, but it has started from a situation where you don't have control over the front wheels.

When understeer occurs there are only a couple of things you can <B>safely</B> do (appart from some very advanced techniques) to sort it out. 1) Slow down (lift gradually or "lift-off oversteer" may kick in), 2) Feather the steering (bring it back a touch then try again). The best lesson you can ever learn re this is to use the correct amount of steering.

Most people wind on heaps of extra steering when they start understeering, this just make matters worse.

DJB
The Oversteer you are experiencing is due (by the sounds of it) to your high level of driving competence. You describe a classic trail brake enduced oversteer. Brake late, turn in while there is lots of hrip at the front (due to the braking) and then get on the gas to hold the powerslide / oversteer.

Understeer is still very possible though (in ANY car), and it is very worthwhile experimenting with understeer so you feel comfortable with the limits of the front end of the car (you are obviously comfotable with the back end).


Back to my holiday now

Best regards

Simon


[This message has been edited by Simon de Banke (edited 10-06-2000).]

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

S de B

Send us a postcard!

Thanks.

Not quite the same answer as b4 but nearly

Don't wish to D-sturb but if b4 sangreer & more sun, is that a neg to email req? (At home now). Don is AWOL

SDB

James

I've done you a slight dis-service (sp?)...

I have re-read your posts and now fully understand what you mean.

(I have to say I still think it is the wrong way to go a bout it though)...

As per your request, what is happening is...

The car is understeering a bit, you nail it enough to spin all four wheels which means they don't produce the normal type of grip anymore.

But now, the front wheels are producing acceleration in the direction of the turn and the rear wheels are producing acceleration straight ahead. Because nothing has that much grip anymore all four wheels produce their bit of acceleration in their chosen direction.

This means the front of the car continues to turn but the rears go straight on causing oversteer. This is a the way you would start oversteer on gravel if you were going slow.

This is all possible but it DOES make the car SNAP into oversteer instead of drift. All sorts of problems can ensue from this so it is probably not advisable.

Best Regards

Simon

PS. Don't fully understand your question re email James. You can email me on my usual address and I'll check it in the evening. I'm off to enjoy the sunshine now

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

Thanks S de B

Have emailed you at you demon account not Driving Techniques - doh!

JamesH