tonybooth

I am running standard rims/tyres and have had the Prodrive springs fitted and geometry set-up at Prodrive themselves.

However, it is handling like a complete lemon. I know the roads are a bit damp, but the understeer is sometimes frightening - much worse than my MY00 & MY01 (though I know there is more power). It also tramlines appallingly [read dangerously]

I have got to the point where I spend as much time wrestling the car as I do driving it. Ultimately, I will fit 18's with better tyres but need advice now.

Is there a problem with the car?
Will adjusting the tyre pressures help? If so to what?
Will a strut brace help?
Anti-lift kit?
Drop-links?

AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!! !!!!!!!!!

TONY

philgr

I have the Prodrive springs fitted to my STi8 PPP and it handles like a dream, the understeer is virtually gone, and the front end is a lot more stable and the dreaded bounce has gone.

When i got back in my car from having the kit fitted it felt right straight away.

I would advise that you take it back to prodrive and get them to take it for a test drive on the track, and give it the once over

Phil G

Big Goon

Standard tyres need changing without a doubt.

YorkshireSimon

Agree with Big Goon, the standard tyres are pants for both understeer and tramlining. Goodyear GSD3's have gone a long way to correcting understeer on my STI7, and no tramlining at all.

Simon

Glenn_R

Tony,

Mine's the same as yours and I have been asking myself the same questions recently. It's currently on std wheels, tyres and suspension and handling can only be described as quite lairy whilst the roads have been wet and slippery. Haven't noticed much understeer but the car feels like it wants to slide everywhere which is un-nerving at the best of times!

Like you I am hoping to add 18"s (plus spring kit) but after shelling out all my hard-earned I wont be able to afford these bits until well into next year. Just have to make the best of it for the moment!

Mr.M

I'm running standard tyres and wheels with Eibachs and a modified prodrive geometry setting (more toe in).

It handles like a dream, definately no understear at all!

mutant_matt

IMHO, whilst I am not a fan of them, the OE wheels are tyres are not that bad (though I have the 18" FF7s with Toyos on mine). The pertinent questions are how many miles have the tyres done, what is the remaining tread depth and what tyre pressures do you run?

The OE tyres are known to show problems a while before they are worn out. I would recommend 32 or 33psi all round (my personal pref) and if there is plenty of mileage left on them, to visit Powerstaion for a Geometry setup/check.

Cheers,

Matt

tonybooth

Thanks for the replies so far. I am running 32 psi all round and the car has now covered 1600 miles.

TONY

russell hayward

I found a decent geometry setup at PS sorted mine out.

johnfelstead

Hi Tony, If you are this worried and want a second opinion i will be happy to meet up over the holiday period and see how its handling, see if there is anything obvious i can see thats wrong.

tonybooth

Thanks for that John

davedipster

I can't quite afford the prodrive springs and fitting at the moment, has anyone just had the prodrive alignment settings applied to a std car. If so Was it worth it?

Dipster

Glenn_R

Driving home tonight thought I'd have a little play with the handling bearing the above in mind. The car doesn't want to understeer at all, even booting it out of a wet roundabout! It just seems to want to oversteer and generally feels very light at the back end.

There's lots of tread left in the tyres - although have never thought the RE040's (or any of the RE series Bridgestones for that matter!) that good in the wet. I am currently running 32psi front, 28 psi rear pressures and am going to see if raising the rear pressures to 32psi help matters

Sorry the hijack the thread, but any thoughts guys??

johnfelstead

Try 36psi front, 30 psi rear tyre presures. You have to run higher front presures on the new age cars than you would on a classic.

Jools

Tony,
You must loose the standard rubber...night and day when you fit Good Years.
John,
Very interested to hear you thoughts on the tyre pressure you mention. I run 33 all round, only cause I did the same on my classic and tried less pressure but thought the car was not so sharp. I have not tried different pressures front and year for no other reason that I was not aware that would help, improve performance. I have Prodrive 18's with GSD3’s, Prodrive springs, ARB, solid drop links, anti lift kit, F/R strut braces, geometry set up, etc.
Would sure appreciate advice from your experience.
Jools Sti7 PPP

hedgehog

I have found my STi8 to be much too insecure and, as you say, "scary" to drive fast on small public roads. Others seem to report similar problems and do say you can drive through the problem. This is true, but only if you have the confidence that the people in the car coming the other way are not going to mind the front end of my car using their side of the road. You also need to be sure that there isn't going to be any loss of grip brought on by muck, leaves etc. on the road, something that hardly seems to bother the MY99.

I suspect that, in the fullness of time, the STi8 will be viewed as an insecure and unsafe vehicle for small roads, just the places where my MY99 inspires confidence and goes like a rocket.

On larger roads, urban areas and tracks it may be a fine car but on a small road with unpredictable surface and levels of grip you nearly need to get out and walk around the corners first to be sure it can cope. There may be modifications that can be made but I suspect there is a fundamental flaw and, knowing how these things work, am sure it will eventually come out.

In the past I had several VR6 Golfs. The press loved them reporting often on their amazing handling etc. I knew mine were vile understeering beasts which were good for cruising on A roads. Some time after I sold mine the press started to report that they were vile understeering beasts that were a danger on the road, it took several years of rave reviews before someone saw through the hype.

The STi8 isn't all bad by a long way, which is why I have one, and neither was the VR6 Golf but they are both flawed and will probably never be "classic" cars.

Lemmy

I would agree with much of the above.

My Sti7 is still on the original tyres which have about 4mm of tread left and they are tramlining more as they get older, just like on my old MY99 turbo.

About a year ago I had a four wheel alignment done by Powerstation which reduced the understeer alot. Also I found that an aftermarket sportscat exhaust and Ecutek remap reduced tramlining under power. Since then I have had Prodrive springs, rear ARB, droplinks and antilift kit fitted, which has reduced the understeer even more.

Sometime in the new year when my current tyres have worn further I will have the 18" FF7 wheels fitted as well.

Alan

tiggers

Yep noticing a lot of this too with a UK STI8. Now learning to drive through the problem, but definitely preferred our old UK MY99 as it felt a lot more glued to the road.

Wheels and suspension due to be changed early Jan mainly to cure the worst ride of any car I've ever driven, but hoping the suspension, bigger wheels and Goodyear bring teh confidence back as well - at the moment it can be a little scary.

The demo car I test drove felt much better than this - that had Prodrive suspension do I'm hoping all will soon be well.

tiggers.

johnfelstead

The tyre presures i gave are just a starting point guide. The latest spec cars carry a lot of weight over the front axle compared to the classics, having a more front biased tyre presure can help to compensate for that.

You also have to vary the presure depending on the size of tyre you are running and also the construction of the tyre, especially its sidewall flex. So taking any value as a bible setting is not a good idea, but it should get you in the ballpark. Toyo T1S for example i find you need to run higher presures with than Bridgestone SO2's.

I have never driven a road car that reacts so much to tyre presure changes as the Impreza, 2psi can have a dramatic effect on handling. So my suggestion is to buy a digital presure guage and try changing the presures around the presures i sugest and see how it reacts. I wouldnt drop below 30PSI rear and would not drop below 33psi front with the size of tyre used on the STi8. These are cold presures!

I havnt driven that many STi8 UK's, but i too noticed on bumpy B roads its a real handful and torque steers like crazy. I personally think this is due to the AP Suretrack front diff and the way it reacts to loss of road surface contact of the tyre. This type of diff works extremely well on smooth road surfaces, but as soon as you get a wheel off the ground it reacts like an open diff. So if you are pushing on and the road surface is uneven and causing the car to skip along the surface the diff is tugging and releasing. You wont get this with the earlier cars because they all had an open front diff. The only cars that had a front LSD were the TypeRA's but the diff type used is not torque biasing like a suretrack so you dont get such a bit effect, although when you wind the centre diff lock in, you do get more torque steer than if you leave the centre diff open.

If it is the front diff that is causing this, then the best way to combat this on bumpy roads would be to soften the front wheel rates and allow the tyre to follow the road surface more easily. The problem with that is you introduce more front end roll on the faster corners. A quick test to try this would be to disconect the front ARB and take it for a run on a straight bumpy road you are familiar with (taking great care on the corners as it will want to snap oversteer!). If that does improve torque steer efect then its a good indication that front end traction is an area that needs more investigating.

r32

I have an 03 STI PPP and was thinking of the Prodrive springs, (I have the Prodrive 18's fitted with Goodyears) but this makes me unsure about getting the springs fitted. The car runs standard suspension and handles really well, certainly no understeer, very neutral particularly in the wet where it will four wheel drift, I wouldnt want to spoil this. I travel to work down quite country roads and it does get pasted. Should I get them?
I did notice that it tramlined very badly with the 17" wheels and original tyres. The 18" Goodyear F1's dont tramline hardly at all they are just amazing well worth getting....
STEVE...........

[Edited by r32 - 12/25/2003 9:26:21 AM]

mutant_matt

Steve,

I would say if you are currently happy with the handling of your car, then adding the Prodrive springs will only improve matters (assuming you get proper decent Geometry setup done at the same time!).

I have to say that I have never found the handling of the STi 7 or 8 remotely problematic, on OE wheels and tyres or on 18" FF7's with T1S' before and after handling mods. It's lively at the front end sure (I put this down to the diff) but not unduly so and no more understeery than my MY00 was before I sorted the handling out on that! I have changed my STi a little (ALK, Prodrive springs, 18" FF7s, Uprated rear ARB, mounts, drop links and bushes) but these have only helped reduce understeer and improved balance from what I considered to be a normally handling Impreza in the first place.

Perhaps I am lucky? Perhaps I drive in a way which suits the car? I don't know!

Matt

johnfelstead

Matt, i think there are two issues here that we need to make sure dont get mixed together.

The first is getting the car to handle in a more neutral manner, which can be takled in the way you describe.

The second which is the main complaint in this thread is the problem the car has with severe bump/torque steer on a rough road surfaces.

These are totally diferent handling traits and need to be looked into independantly, if you dont do much driving on bumpy roads you probably wont even notice the torque/bump steer issue as the front diff seems to thrive on smoother surfaces. I noticed the bad front end stability on a B road within a couple of hundred yards of driving one when i drove the car around the lanes surounding Donington, it was quite shocking.

Tyre choice could affect this in a big way, if as i suspect, the front tyre grip/patter is the problem, as a softer sidewall tyre will have more mechanical grip in these circumstances. The T1S is a very compliant sidewall, much more so than most bridestones.

mutant_matt

Sure John

In fact, I try to use the car as much as possible on bumpy B-roads (you've been to Dave's old place - that's my playground!! ), the car is if I'm honest mostly a toy, and I do know what you're talking about. My point I guess was that the standard car, when it's working properly (nothing wrong with the tyres or Geom etc.) is quite lively but nothing I have ever thought was unmanageble or dangerous. I enjoy the involvement required TBH!

I also find it reasonably predictable but perhaps I'm just used to it now? I didn't think it felt *that* different from the front LSD in the RA? (on bumpy roads at least).

Matt

hedgehog

I suspect that John is correct in many of the things he says. My bet is that the STi is great on a really good quality road/track and it might also be fine sideways on a forest track with plenty of run off room etc. On a small public road it doesn't give you the confidence that you can drive it quickly and safely and in such circumstances safety has to be the priority. As well as being unsettled by bumps etc. it is also very unsettled by slippy bits such as mud or leaves. Sure, I've recovered mine from a few encounters with such things but it just doesn't give you any confidence that you will be able to recover the next time, something I never found a problem in the "classic" cars. Getting a classic sideways was fun, getting the STi8 sideways is a lottery and you'll not do it on purpose unless you are a braver man than me. I have no desire to become a boy racer and would much rather be in control of the car rather than have it in control of me.

It is also a very valid point that perhaps the suspension at the front is far too hard and this is something that I had concluded myself. I can't help but feel that Subaru, in making it that way, did so to cover up for a design flaw of some sort.

I would go so far as to say that someone driving safely and quickly on a small road in an STi is likely to find themselves easily beaten, or at least "kept up with," by a range of much more common machinery, even diesel powered, driving in an equally safe manner. This is exactly the opposite of what the old shape Subaru stood for and for that reason it seems reasonable to call the old shape cars "classic" as I suspect that in the future they will define what Subaru was and stood for.

As I've said above, however, I bought the STi and will keep it for another year as there are things about it I like. This isn't an attempt at blanket abuse of what is a very nice car but, I hope, a rational attempt to discuss a flaw of this vehicle. The sooner Subaru waken up to the problem the sooner we can get back to enjoying ourselves.

Glenn_R

Fully agree it's all about the confidence. Its rare that I feel I can committ the STi to a corner or get the best out of the car when the roads get twisty and narrow - roads I particularly enjoy and ones I thought the car was designed for! Down the B roads I take to work I can go down them much faster in other cars purely because of the extra feel and confidence they give you!

Only being able to drive it at four-tenths down a challenging road leaves you feeling pretty disappointed and unrewarded - something that was never the case with both of the classic Scoobs I have owned

mutant_matt

I am truely puzzled!! I am extremely pleased with the "feel" and the amount of confidence my STi gives me (OK so it's modded but I didn't think the standard car anywhere near as bad as people are making out!). I think it's at it's best and it's most comunicative on bumpy, twisty, wet, slippery B-roads and I LOVE driving it in this environment (OK I enjoy dry more but you get my point). I can go faster in this car than any other I have driven except the previously mentioned well sorted (and modded) STi 5 RA Ltd (happy John? ).

I love the way the harder you push the car, the more it talks to you and the more subtle the inputs need to get. I like the challenge of trying to drive it fast but smooth (not it's strong point) but quite frankly, the things it will do and let you get away with are quite astonishing!! (and I'm not talking about going sideways - that kind of stuff should be kept to the track).

It's not like I'm some super driver either as I've never owned a RWD car (well except an Imp but it had no power and I didn't know how to drive then ) so it's not like I'm used to driving something more demanding and the Scoob by comparison is easy

????

Matt

BOBBY G

Let's face it guys, the STI 7 & 8 are pretty rubbish at handling.
Everyone is afraid to say it.
Why do we have to get Prodrive to fettle it, fit new wheels, tyres, etc....?

Pay over £ 25,000 for a car and you should spend no more.

My opinion.

Bob.

p.s. got an STI-7 PPP

rav4640

dont know what all the fuss is about i run std springs on my 03 sti and been pretty quick down some twisty bits with no probs,think maybe a few people are getting a bit mixed up between bounce and hard, it is hard, but i have no so called bounce probs

Lemmy

I wonder if one of the reasons that Matt and I do not have a problem with our STi7s on bumpy roads is that both of ours are fitted with antilift kits. These have the effect of softening the front suspension during acceleration and braking allowing better wheel tracking over rough roads by keeping the wheels in contact with the ground. This will reduce the torque steer effect described by some of the above.

On SIDC's September Isle of Mann trip this year we drove down the Druidale Trail, which is a very bumpy and twisty sinle lane tarmac road, that goes up and down and changes direction like a rollercoaster. It is used for rallying and there are scrapes and holes in the road where rally cars have grounded! I was able to blast my STi7 down this track with complete confidence (except when nearing sheep). My Scoob took quite a pounding judging by the noise coming from the shaking trim, but it did not tramline or torque steer. Infact I drove the road several times because it was so much fun. Interestingly, the P1s in our party had to drive the road very sedately because they were grounding occasionally. A standard STi7 nearly lost it completely on a bump which caused its back end to leap out at 45 degrees.

My STi7 is still on the original Bridgestones but does have Prodrive springs, Whiteline rear ARB, ALK and droplinks.

Alan

tonym

Lemmy,
didn't john felstead say that only the STi8 had the Suretrack front differential (i.e. potential torque steer)?

Tony