K9VYN

Not sure where this should be posted, if it's been posted before and I guess the vast majority of us know this, but...

enjoy the read (again???)

http://www.users.totalise.co.uk/~sco...s/handling.htm

smb1

Hmmmmm.....a good read indeed.....don't know what turning circle they used for the radius test....but you wouldn't get me drivin at 49 mph in the WET if the turning circle is fairly tight, back end tends to go on me!!!!!

K9VYN

front end for me. need to readjust my rear arb and tyre pressures to balance things. in fact, i'll probably do it this avo!

smb1

mines still in original state, so need to do a bit of work yet, 17's + springs + struts + droplinks + geometry, so i'd best get writing to MR XMAS !!!

Though i'd assume the test was on an original one!

K9VYN

yeah, i guess. geometry can be out on these cars from new so that's a good place to start at least cost, but its a great excuse to lower the car and upgrade your wheels etc...

go on, you know you want to!

smb1

Will probably get the stage 4 handling package done at TSL in the new yr, will post my comments on here when done.

Paul Woodward

I forwarded this to a mate of mine who's a bit of a car enthusiast, and he sent me the following unbiased opinion.....


I had read that before. Interesting first test though. The supposed massive advantage that 4 wheel drive offers in the wet doesn't manifest itself. In fact, it's beaten by the supposed 'tricky' rear engined, rear wheel drive Porsche. Interesting, also, that the Impreza has never won Autocar's Drivers Car Of The Year award where as the 911 and Elise both have. In the case of the Elise, in the same year that this article was written. In fact, no 4 wheel drive car has ever won it. This year it was won by the Mazda MX5. I suppose it's all subjective. In the tests they presented, it all came down to speed as to which won. In the handling contest they hold each year, it's more down to drivers comments and general 'feel'. I'm not knocking the Impreza. Far from it. I just think that Autocar shot themselves in the foot with this article because, weeks earlier, they had roundly applauded the Elise as being the best drivers car when it won their handling contest hands down.

I suppose it pi55es me off slightly because now you'll get loads of Impreza drivers going round saying that they drive the best handling car in the world (I'm not including you in this statement!) when, if they read Autocar week in week out, they'd find that the same magazine, whilst roundly applauding the Impreza as a great car, also, ultimately, knocks it for being too understeary (is that a word?) when pushed to the limit. This years handling test, which included F1 drivers past and present, unanimously voted the MX5 as being the best drivers car. It was also one of the slowest round the lap on the day. It beat a cross section of the best cars around, from supercars to the best front drive cars. Maybe I should post that on Scoobynet?

Can I get off my box now?

K9VYN

Paul,

Your mate makes some very good points and, shock horror, Scoobs do indeed have flaws. I currently have a slight understeer problem with mine, but can make suspension/tyre pressure adjustments to check this. The point is that article is about generalisation. Drive a different Impreza and 911 and differences may not be so great or even reverse (no two cars are the same). Its just nice to get an article supporting your belief in your car's capabilities.

MX-5 is a very good handler.. we have one of those too! But I know which of the two I prefer to take out when we don't have perfect weather. And even in great weather you run the risk of being branded a hairdresser.

Of the other cars tested, the M3 appeals and I did my ARDS around Silverstone in a 306 GTi-6 (very capable motor). I doubt people will be blabbing about Impreza's being the best in the world, because we know they're not - but they are pretty darn good at what they do especially at the price (as are other motors.. RS Focus, Evos, Clio 172 etc etc etc).

I do hope you didn't upset him too much

Kev

ps. Ironically the reason I found the thread is because I was searching for additional tips on balancing an AWD car with regard to dialing out understeer (especially as I can't get the back end to shift).

[Edited by K9VYN - 11/14/2003 12:18:49 PM]

Paul Woodward

No, he loves a good car discussion, I did point out to him that ultimate handling can only be judged by the stopwatch, whereas "driver's car of the year" involves more things such as feel and feedback as well.

But he's knowledgable as he reads all the mags and reviews each month, so it's interesting to get an unbiased opinion.

K9VYN

Absolutely

mattstant

Hey just a cotton pickin minute here why did they NOT consult the god of car handling and legend in his own lunchtime

MYCROFT

before they dared to write that and how dare they leave out the flabby--sorry fabulous toyota Soarer

Duck_Pond

I may be wrong, but wasn't the winning car of that Autocar test, where the MX-5 won, given away as a prize? Maybe I'm cynical, but I'd have thought that they'd avoid giving away a supercar!

They're not the only magazine to change their minds on cars' abilities with regards to the Impreza. I think Performance Car awarded it 2nd place to a Mondeo 24V (ST?) in one test, then went on to say the Impreza was one of the best cars of the decade (90s), without mentioning the Mondeo...

I also believe that handling tests are always going to be down to the personal preference of the tester. So there's no real way of saying a car is better than another. I personally think Imprezas are very safe when it comes to handling, which leads to the driver being able to cover ground very quickly... whether that is more entertaining than going sideways in an old Mk2 Escort... down to you.

Dazza01

nuff said.. but how did he know i have a blitz fitted to my scoob ?



[Edited by Dazza01 - 11/14/2003 4:30:48 PM]

harrymonk

Yep we are worthy like a wolf in sheeps? Atire

Steve Whitehorn

iTrader: (13)

Having owned MX5, Scoob, M3 and Porker968.

I feel that in every day road conditions of wet, dry, twisty b roads, long motorways etc - real everyday driving which we. The scoob is definately the quickest all rounder. Note all rounder. It understears predictably and progessively on the limit. Which may not be the best fun but makes for quick controlled progress down any road. Many people I know who need to get from a to b as quickly as posible own scoobs. THE REAL WORLD

However on the top gear test track or bruntingthorpe etc I am sure many other cars are more involving and fun. THAT IS NOT THE REAL WORLD.

I currently have a supercharged MX5 and it is a real good drivers car. The handling is lovely. A sunny day with the roof down playing about with it is great.

I do feel the scoob is the best allrounder for the varied driving conditions we get in this country and that is why I love it so much. It is performance that can be harnessed and used effectively in any road conditions. If you drive it properly you won't end up in a hedge backwards. Unless you have extream bad luck which can happen to any car.

Verbal meanderings over
Steve

Steve777

iTrader: (8)

Kev,

Sure thats not the driver

Steve

Danny B

That test is over 5 years old!! talk about digging up the past.

jl123

Steve,

What scooby do/did you have? Which M3 did you have? I could not agree with you more! Most people on this site actually forget what the whole rationale for the scooby was in the first place: a car to drive anywhere anytime in all conditions, fast and safe. Who the heck would be so blind as to think that an MX-5 could drive and be driven the way an Impreza can be or vice versa??

Sutciffe and company (not the smartest of dudes) over at Autocar actually got lucky and stumbled onto a set of tests that actually had some connection to real world driving. Granted none of those guys actually understood that fact,(notice how they have never mentioned or written another test in that form since) but at least for that test real road handling characteristics were somewhat explored. The evo boys have maybe done 2 or 3 tests like that, but not so formally, rather on Wales roads.

I wish this type of real world driving thread could be explored more, and by drivers as aware as Steve. But unfortunalty most people are more interested in more and bigger. More power, bigger wheels/tires, more grip etc. All for the track.

[Edited by jl123 - 11/15/2003 9:26:57 PM]

[Edited by jl123 - 11/15/2003 9:45:36 PM]

Leslie

Its simple, get rid of the bumpsteer and fit solid anti roll bar links and you will have a car which really handles. Ask all those who have done this!

Interesting article Kevin,thanks.

Les

K9VYN

Steve,

you could be right there you'll be able to assess for yourself on the Tour of Derbyshire. Mind you, after my remap on Saturday i could afford to use the slow in fast out technique on the bends while waiting for all these heavy new fangled STi Scoob things

Kev

Steve Whitehorn

iTrader: (13)

jl123.
Do you drive for a living?
M3 was an E36. Have driven an E30. I have driven a fair few scoobs. The one I owned for the longest time was a modified classic WRX. The brakes were the weakest point and once I had upgraded them it really made it a quicker/safer car. I know RWD is more involving and more of a 'proper macho' drive but if I have to cover ground quickly say on a wet A road I want a car to predictably and most importantly PROGRESSIVELY understeer. I feel that the Subaru is superb at this it has such a high level of grip and when the front does let go it does it in such a very progresive way that you can balance the car using very gentle steering and throtle inputs.

For me the key for a quick road car is how progressively and predictably it loses grip. Not the top speed or BHP.
As they say power is nothing without control.
All the best
Steve

jl123

Steve,

No professional driving here, but I do like to press on on the right roads. (mostly in NEW England)

Have you driven any new generation scooby's, its reckened that the new C spec brings back the progressive and feelsome nature of the classic. Ever driven a UrQuattro, very failsafe in the wet.

I wish that the handling Guru from prodrive Damian could have given some sort of talk on this real road driving topic. It would seem the subject is not terribly important for most development engineers, after all most cars need not be progressive or predicatable so much as capable and protected from sliding by esp systems. But really if one gets into the subject it probably gets quite interesting; not least because to make a car handle well on a roads in the wet one need not worry too much about aerodynamics as the speeds arn't fast enough to generate any major forces, so the placements of major masses and overall weight matter more. Dare I say it but extra weight might actually help in the wet. Two other experts that I'd love to ask these sorts of questions to would be Roger Becker (who actually once was quoted as saying that mid-engine would not be his first choice for designing a usable car for road driving),the chief road tester at Lotus, and Lee Noble ex Lotus man now making cars under his name.