greasemonkey

<devil's advocate mode> Erm, because Shell did exactly this a couple of years ago, raising their common or garden 97 RON SUL a few points, bunging in some spurious additives and spending a load of money on a big advertising campaign featuring M. Schumacher? </devil's advocate mode>

Could just be a load of spurious marketing bollokcs about their additives being better for your car than any other petrol. BP unquestionably do sell a 98 RON fuel under the "Ultimate 98" banner elsewhere in Europe and Australia. They also sell the "Ultimate 100" in Germany and Greece. Either way, if the official launch is Tuesday, we won't have long to find out which one we're getting.

I might pop some fuel in at my local BP in the morning, will see what they've got to say about it.

[Edited by greasemonkey - 10/2/2003 11:17:51 PM]

Neil Smalley

This fact has always confused me and although I know nuffin about mapping. why did'nt Subaru put a line of code in the map(or whatever you do) something like

If RON<=95 then retard/advance=failsafe value

etc

Seems fairly slack programming not to include a 'failsafe' condition that kicks in should duff fuel be put in. I'm not sure if other performance cars lack a similar mapping condition?

Was it down to the processing capabilities of the ECU at the time? But then the new ECU Seems to lack a similar failsafe(so i've been told)

Nothing to do with BP fuel, just a question that Theo's post reminded me to ask.



[Edited by Neil Smalley - 10/3/2003 10:57:52 AM]

EvilBevel

It's only half OT Neil, as apart from the availability, it's good to know if you would or would not benefit at all from these fuels.

They did put that bit in, and a lot more than that. The older ECU has the capability to react on lower spec fuel, but the fuel doesn't come in to the engine and wears a nametag with "Oi, 95 RON me"

The only way the ECU can "know" that something is amiss is by detecting knock. It will then try to adjust the ignition values for each "load" site/RPM it detects knock. The engineers will work within certain parameters of course, so for a car mapped for 97/98 RON a retard of -3 should be enough to make the car behave with 95 RON. But the JDM cars were mapped for 100 RON, and their knock sensor sensitivity is less as well.

There are even different maps in the JECS ECU for lower quality fuel, but I don't think they actually used that feature (i.e., put in different values). DeltaDash mappers should be able to answer that one BTW.

Added to that, the knocksensor/ECU can't really distinguish knock/det from other engine noises above a certain RPM (about 5500 to 6000 in the case of the classic IIRC), so if your car dets at the higher RPM (especially the JDM cars that could rev over 8000 RPM) you have a problem.

So there is a "safety net", but it's just not big enough to catch the JDM cars. And also, before the ECU can react, det already occured. One nasty spike can be enough to kill off the engine anyway (although I think it's rare).

Finally, it's also a trade-off between power and environment... a car with optimal ignition advance (which is not a fixed number BTW, but is specific to each RPM / load site. (a load site in the case of the Subaru is MAF sensor value + throttle position sensor)

Retarding too much will make the car very environmently unfriendly, so you don't want to retard until pure fuel is coming out of your exhaust LOL.

Yes, other cars (especially turbo cars because of higher intake temps/pressures etc) have the same problem. In fact, detonation has been a worry for decades (1920's somehow rings a bell), and most research started in the aviation industry. The ultimate solution back then was lead (well, it's not exactly lead, but never mind), and the problem came back when lead was banned in fuels.

I'm sure I forgot loads of bits... but that's the ghist of the story.

Edit: maybe a good time to promote the link to http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/ again. It's mindblowingly boring if you aren't really interested, but it gives you answers to a lot of questions

[Edited by EvilBevel - 10/3/2003 11:34:44 AM]

Mad Gypsy

If Optimax is 'higher' than 98RON then why would you want to put BP's 98RON in your tank? Am I missing something here.
I can't see Shell advertising 98+RON and it being lower.
Is there any proof that Shell dropped the RON of Optimax after the first 6 months, as is claimed by some? Or, like a lot of the info on SNet, is it complete bolloks.

Besides, I'll bet my bolloks to a barn dance that it will not be advertised against Optimax as a better performance fuel but as an environmentally cleaner fuel. It has lower sulpher levels than Optimax I think.
Most of the general public would buy fuel based on that rather than performance. It's only people like us that could give a monkey's toss about performance.

[Edited by Mad Gypsy - 10/6/2003 4:17:28 PM]

Adam M

apparently, ultimate is created as with higher octane from birth during its formation from crude oil.

the additives used are meant to be better than those in optimax and lead to a less volatile octane rating which degrades less with time.

this is according to mycroft who is informed in such matters, but is subject to my misquoting.

edited due to crip spullinj

[Edited by Adam M - 10/6/2003 5:55:40 PM]

Phil

He's already done it

[Edited by phil_stephens - 10/7/2003 11:13:07 AM]

Chris.Palmer

No trueer word said in jest

Unfortunately, some parts of Europe have now moved on & are blessed with 100RON V-Power etc. [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

[Edited by Chris.Palmer - 10/7/2003 8:10:54 PM]

Redkop

Here's a copy of an email from BP sent to someone else from another bb

Dear ****,

Thank you for your email received 07/10/03 regarding BP Ultimate.

BP Ultimate Unleaded and Diesel are performance fuels that are designed for all types of
vehicles, not just performance cars.

They were released 07/10/03 in about 100 stores in London and the surrounding area and will
continue to spread to other sites across the country daily.

BP Ultimate Unleaded has an octane rating of 97-98 RON, causing less pollution along with having
twice the cleaning power of ordinary fuels.

In tests BP Ultimate Unleaded acceleration increase was roughly equivalent to having the next
larger engine size e.g. Its like upgrading from a 1.8 to a 2.0.

It removes performance robbing deposits from your engine that other fuels can leave behind.

Thank you again for your email, if you have any further queries please don't hesitate to call
the BP Careline on 0800 402 402.

Yours sincerely,

Freddie Boniface
Customer Care Advisor
BP Oil UK Ltd
0800 402402

-----Original Message-----
From:
Sent: 07 October 2003 17:11
To: Careline
Subject: Products & services - service stations and stores - UK BP
service stations or fuel


Inquiry Type: Products & services - service stations and stores
UK BP service stations or fuel

Message:

Have you launched your new petrol in the UK yet?

If so can you let me know the details please!!

[Edited by Redkop - 10/8/2003 12:11:04 PM]

EvilKyote

From an earlier post:

Hmmm, What great PR, the website doesn't even exist!

oooooh! first CORNER

[Edited by EvilKyote - 10/8/2003 1:27:07 PM]

Reffro

EvilKyote, did you read what you quoted????

The website is available from the 9th October, I make that tomorrow, so I wouldn't expect it to work today.................

[Edited by Reffro - 10/8/2003 2:37:28 PM]

greasemonkey

Waste of whose time exactly? If they're right with their claims that it'll work better in the majority of cars, it'll probably be just as successful as Optimax.

As has been stated a number of times elsewhere, the octane rating alone is not the beginning and end of the story; it's a shame so many people here have become sufficiently preoccupied with it that they're now "disappointed" with the announcement of a fuel that may give us a viable alternative to Optimax.

[Edited by greasemonkey - 10/9/2003 5:44:37 PM]

Edcase

Right, the facts. Can't reveal my sources naturally.

*If you live in South England and have bought super unleaded from a BP station in the last week or so, you are likely already using BP ultimate

*Its 100 RON, same as is sold in Europe

*It is REPLACING bp's 98ron super unleaded throughout the country

*There will be no chance of contamination. Tanks have been fully drained, cleaned and refilled

*They are spending £8m promoting it with a schumacher / optimax-esque marketing campaign

*They still don't know how much to charge

*It launches on the 7th

*The extra octane is achieved through the refinery process not by adding octane booster style fuel improver additives.

I pulled in to a BP station on the way home from London just now and plied an assisstant there with my new knowledge and they admitted that yes, if I fill up with the super unleaded on their forecourt it is indeed 100 ron ultimate fuel, and that is the case throughout most of south england. Sadly I had just filled up with Optimax.

Perhaps now shell will get off their ***** and bring v-power here, but by then it may be too late. I always did prefer BP until I bought the Scoob...

[Edited by Edcase - 10/2/2003 8:52:49 PM]

[Edited by Edcase - 10/2/2003 11:07:50 PM]

WRX Wannabe

Oh well looks like more Necter points now then

Bye bye optimax

greasemonkey

Small point with my pedantic hat on Ed:

Eh? Optimax just replaced Shell's "ordinary" Super Unleaded, so not sure where you think there's a distinction here.

...But of course the closest they've got to a Schumacher would be Markko Martin, and I'd imagine 95% of the British public wouldn't have a clue who he is.

I bet they don't when people still have the duty increase fresh in their memories. The pricing and marketing campaign for this will be absolutely crucial.

Unfortunately I think they're going to have a job "selling" this to Joe Numpty if it's any more expensive than normal SUL. It's not like it's going to turn his Monvecuna into a supercar. I doubt even numpty Impreza drivers would notice anything other than a placebo effect.

GREEN SCOOBY

will this make the uk cars run any better,give more power and less dett or is it just gonna be better for the jap cars due to the uk cars having a map???? for 98 ron petrol.

Edcase

Greasemonkey - weird, not sure why I though Shell still did superunleaded as well as optimax. Its been a long couple days...

jameswrx

iTrader: (4)

Sounds good (if it is 100 ron)

Seems weird there has been no advertising, 5 days to go and we find out through a 'source' on a car forum

Johnny50

There's a BP station round the corner, think i'll go check with them tomorrow.

Would be nice if it comes though.

Andy555

Sounds Great, but I am surprised that the assistant knew all about it, usually they do not give a ****.

I so hope this is true...

Andy555

Had a search on the net, and it seems like other countries who have already got it state that it is 98 RON not 100???

Its even called - BP Ultimate 98™

Edcase

God there are some skeptics around!!! Makes me laugh.

Ask yourself why BP would spend £8m on advertising and refit all their stations across the country to rebrand their 98ron superunleaded as ultimate??? And what is ultimate about 98 Ron fuel when Shell already sell a >98ron fuel in optimax???



I wonder why I bother sometimes.

OK, I made it all up. BP aren't releasing any new fuel. It's April fool. HAHA!!! SURPRISE!!!!!

elgordano

it's our secret then edcase.

Gordo

Edcase

Gordo - LMAO

Greasey - Hehe, spoken like someone who's seen it all before. What exactly do you do, out of interest?? Between you and me?

Apparently its been in the SUL pumps for a while now BTW, so they can trial it.

Also, next time you go past a BP station, look at the big price sign outside and note the blank line with a big question mark on it

ed_the_duck

howdy ed

did you get them seats?



bit off topic!

ed

Edcase

Going to see / test a pair next week

Means I won't be at the ace cafe tho

Don't worry about being off topic, nobody is interested anyway

So...surprisingly warm today wasn't it???

Attu

Strange thing, I went to my local BP station a few days ago and put some SUL in, right after the car was over boosting for the next few times i drove the car.
Wonder if it was the fuel ??
It hasnt done it since and im still of the same tank.

Andy

ed_the_duck

yes it was unusually warm today................somthing to do with burning fossil fuels causing global warming perhaps


plenty other meets to see u at ed

keep up the modding

ed

greasemonkey

Seen one marketing campaign you've seen 'em all.

Oops. If that's the case, it obviously doesn't make any difference, as it's not like anybody's posted about their car going better after the Shell garage was shut and they filled up at BP!

Proof of pudding will be in eating, but see comment above!

If it's 100, it probably won't make a noticeable difference (see comment above!) to a standard car when compared with "normal" SUL or Optimax, and if it's a 98, it almost certainly won't.

Any differences would probably be more due to the additives they're bound to shout about rather than the octane rating itself. I imagine part of the marketing will focus on it being more environmentally friendly than their old SUL, and if Optimax is any guide it should burn a bit cleaner.

Unlikely to give any major increases on a standard car. If it's not running any knock correction on whatever fuel you use at the moment, it's not like the ECU has anything extra to give, so you'd really need to add a bit of advance/take some fuel out at the top/both to make the most of it. However...

Yes, theoretically at least, if your setup dets on whatever fuel you run ATM, if this BP stuff it is a genuine 100 octane product, this should be better, and thus you may be able to liberate a bit more power when your ECU removes the knock correction.

Again, if it's bona fide 100, it should place less reliance on booster for JDM owners, but proof of pudding etc. etc.

Biggest issue, beside the octane rating, at the moment is likely to be price. At a time when discontent about fuel prices has recently been in the news, announcing this stuff at a premium is likely to create enough bad vibes among the buying public to overshadow any features and benefits they claim for it. Tricky if you're Mr BP!

what would scooby do

Sell your shares in companies selling octane booster

Trouser @TSL

Ello Ed!

like Attu .. i filled up the blue banger with BP 98 t'other day. As the Motec is mapped for Optimax it's no great shakes to run a "low" octane. Tell you what, I thought the car felt better too.

If I was really sad I would get Rich to log to data figures from the run and tell you if it was better.. but I can't be arsed .. It felt better to me anyway

Roll on the 100 mate.. We can raise the map when us poor Midland Monkeys get it here !!

l8r