Andy McCord

Please note this is not an attempt to slag any mappers off for there price justification, it is purely aimed at increasing my understanding off how the price quoted is reached.

So let me get this right, you buy a laptop, then a ECU interface, then perhaps you then buy a licence from EcuTek which then allows you to use there software, ok lets say at most £2K, 3 hours work with a laptop hey presto £700 please. three cars later your in profit, with no further outlay unless the licence is yearly.

Whilst i appreciate im also paying for the mappers knowledge i still have trouble justifiying in my mind £233 per hour, what am i missing in my understanding in this price charge.

I would appreciate any response from any mappers or anyone else who has a sound understanding of how this is broken down, but i fully understand that you are not obliged to answer this question & justify your price to me & the whole scoobynet community.

Im sure there are alot of people out there who have had this work done & are extremely happy with the amount they have paid for the results they got, but surely some peeps on this BBS have wondered how on earth this figure is reached.

As i said B4 this is not a pop at any of the companys that offer this service, merely a simple question, i have nothing but praise for the 2 mappers i have had contact with regarding matters other than mapping (Pete C & The doctor)

BuRR

There is a licensing fee payable to ECUTEK for every ECU that the re-mapper processes. Even after the purchase of their software.

Also - you're paying for their knowledge.

wos 69

And well worth paying for DR. J.B's knowledge!

Andy McCord

perhaps i should off reworded the "paying 4 there knowledge" for example, if i leave school & decide to become a builder, then thats my choice.

If i then quote to build someone an extension & proceed to build it, I then charge them for the construction of the extension, not for spending 4 years learning how to become a builder, after all its not there fault that i decided to become a builder.

Now if i decide to become an ECU mapper then would you agree that the above theory comes in to play??

Andy McCord

Apologies Burr, so there's a fee paid to the software company for every map done to a vehicle, ok how much ??.

Can you imagine the amount paperwork to go through, for every single car mapped, I would of thought it more prudent to just licence someone with either a one off payment or yearly, maybe we will never know

dan4

I understand your point Andy, especially (as I think I read on here) that the same remap costs a fraction of the price in the US. Still this is rip off Britain and what can you do?

NotoriousREV

If the market bears the cost charged, then by definition it must be a fair price. If another product came along that did the same job for 50% of the price, the market dynamics would shift.

If you think it's unfair, develop your own product and network of dealers and undercut them, it's one hell of product opportunity

Andy McCord

Dan, I hope by this thread, we may all understand a little more to assure us that people using this service are not being ripped off mate

stevem2k

In reality you are. The difference between the material cost and the total quote is partially the time or 'experience' of the builder. By definition you will pay more for a craftsman than a spotty oik who only laid his first brick last week.

Builders are probably a bad analogy .... you get a lot more value out of a remap


Just my 2p

Steve

Suresh

The is an alternative to Tek3 - it is called PPP and will cost you considerably more. Compared to the pricing of PPP, Tek3 is the bargain of the century

Suresh
(MY99 Tek3)

DrEvil

Steve is right, its like any job the more experience someone has the more they tend to get paid for doing a job..

Although, I hope the mappers don't catch on to this idea and put their prices up as they gain more and more experience in the field!

BuRR

Also - when you don't have any "proven" competitors - then you can more or less charge what you want.

dan4

I am not stating that the Tek remap is a rip off, merely that I think the same remap is a LOT cheaper in America. I just wonder why it costs more over here? Maybe our mappers have a lot more experience?

Andy McCord

ok, i'll try the builder 1 again, if i build my first extension on day 1 & charge £1000 to do it, i wouldnt expect to charge the 100th customer a great deal different.

I know what youre saying regards spotty oink mapping cars but if i found 1 that charges half the price for the same job, for the same results then i would use him, wouldnt u??.

This may be not a good analogy but I think you see where im heading, im really looking for the breakdown between the software supplier & the mappers costs & what we pay

Twigster

Andy, I can certainly understand what you are saying, as the prices paid for parts in this country in general are staggering!
Prime example are the Japanese tuning companies, who due to import duty and shipping etc who have no choice but to charge £500 plus for a lot of their products. The US and japan are a good deal cheaper, (Some 20% on most products) and are seen as less of a 'rip-off' as it has been put.
However, the UK companies will charge what they can, as is the rules of business, until someone comes along and undercuts them, or until people refuse to pay.
The discounts available by group-buys etc are prime examples of companies being willing to drop prices in order to gain more over the long-term. I'm sure if there was the demand, then the prices would come down, but we can do nothing unless everyone acts together, and even then there is no guarantee that anything will change. (anyone remember a certain fuel 'crisis'? What changed there?)

STi wanna Subaru

iTrader: (1)

I always wondered where the pricing came from for the TEK maps and to be honest it's based on what people were willing to pay for second hand ECU's IMHO. A AE800 and AE801 could command £150 (TEK 1 anybody?)A MY99/00 PPP ECU used to command around £600 second hand........Errr TEK 2........you get the picture. Just look how the PPP ECU prices have fallen since ECUTEK started. I personally think it's a great piece of technology that has benefited the Impreza no end. I tip my hat to Stephen Done. I however would love for somebody else to offer a rival to ECUTEK in order to introduce some competition into the market. If this was to happen then the prices would drop somewhat. If somebody was to make it open source then all the better

Adam M

a massive fraction of the cost comes from the license fee.

Not my place to divulge how much.

Mapping a car is not easy by any accounts.

Some mappers are better than others there is no question, but all of them if worth anything have gained a difficult skill.

If you think you can do better, there is nothing stopping you from doing it yourself.

the thing to bear in mind is that they are negligent if your engine fails due to mapping issues.

If they charge £100 a go, then they have to do 20 cars to cover the potential cost of one failure. In short they have to have massive confidence in their own ability to be able to charge others for it.

The only reason the job takes the time it does is because they are experienced in it. I am sure if I were to attempt the same thing it would take me literally 100 times as long, and even then I could not be confident it was done right.

Lawyers earn up to £500/hour roughly, barristers I know can earn £20,000 an hour. they certainly don't do £20,000 worth of work in terms of the effort that a shelf stacker puts into his job, but you are paying for expertise and confidence in the product.

And as for ecutek licensing you are paying for the years of research time it took to crack the standard ecu code. I don't believe this is a uk/us argument. The software has been sold all over the world and there is nothing stopping someone else from doing the same thing themselves.

Andy McCord

Adam, if this was true then i prob would feel easier about paying it, but its the not knowing that bothers me!!, if the price for the software was say £400 & the mapper charged £300, & i could see that as a breakdown then i would find it easier part with the reddies, the difference between your analogy of the barrister on £20,000 per hour is that you can see what the breakdown of the cost is,its there being performed in front of you.

You wouldnt pay a barrister to represent you if you couldnt see him/her in action would you?

Adam M

if I got the outcome I wanted, then probably I would yes.

Depending on whether the court case was worth 20,000 for me to win.

I don't know how secret the info is, but perhaps if you are concerned about it you could ask the mapper, if he can tell you I am sure he will.

I don't think you will take as much issue when you know the figures.

stephen emery

Mrs charges a fair bit per hour, lawyer . I could not afford her
steve


ps good hey, to alowe your wife to work

Andy McCord

Adam, you could always e-mail me offline ok maybe ill put the question on the TEK forum see if i get a reply, it might make me sleep easier the nightB4 i have my TEk3 done

Bob Rawle

Ecutek produced the software, check the website for those that use it, some companies charge more than others, its a question of worth, time and effort put into the job, and yes you DO pay for experience !! Thats normal in ANY market area. Sometimes the extra is worth it for the unlimited technical support that goes with it. Andy you would, I expect, to earn more if you had greater experience of what you do (and I don't know what that is) ... no?

Andy, maybe there is a simple solution in your case, take your car to the States and save save save .... lol

cheers

bob (not interested in debating mapping charges since those that moan are usually those that expect something for nothing, no offence intended to anyone but ... )

Andy McCord

Bob, firstly thanks for being the first mapper to reply even if you did slightly skirt round my question , let me get one thing clear, i am not saying that the cost of remapping is neccesarily to expensive, im just trying to find how the figure quoted is arrived at.

I think its a question of value for money, and as i have said B4 there are a lot of people on here who say that the results of your time & effort in mapping there particular car are well worth it.

Now if i took my car for a service, i would expect a bill that consists of labour charges & consumables.. Now if i took my car to you for a re-map would i get the same type of bill from you??

I guess i will never find out & will just have to do the same as the rest & stump up for what is a very good product with a price tag shrouded in cloud!!!

ragnarock2

Put it this way, I was told by the guy who mapped my engine, that subsequent remaps (if I change anything) will be circa £200-250, as I have "bought" the license for ECUTEK now, so going from that, I would expect the license to be a minimum of £250-£300!

Gridlock Mikey

A very interesting thread.

I have often looked at this area (not just re-mapping but most things Impreza ) and I have to say, it does GUT me whenever I become a victim of "rip off Britain"
Alas the really painful thing about it is there is nothing an individual can do about it.
It's all very well saying "well if you can do it go set up ya own company" fact is, I can't However i know that something is amiss because everytime we investigate costs of things like this, someone somewhere gets the "hump" Usually the person/ company making all the profit.
Simple things like the cost of:
Brake Pads
Coloured/clear indicators
Spoilers
Back boxes
PPP
Servicing
the list goes on
Did you know that re-mapping a Ferrari 360 ECU costs £399.99 + VAT Now I don't know why it does or "Licencing" issues or the style of Map it is but it makes me wonder! £6-700 Scooby map, £400 Ferrari. Go figure
I'm not a skin flint, I don't want something for nothing but I would like value for money sometimes. Hiding behind things like Licencing fees, import duties, the Euro, the economy, etc etc is really quite poor.
When i complete business, the lease company want's me to charge the customer an admin fee of £125 I have to add this to MY charges and the customer should pay it. I totally disagree with this practice so I ALWAYS cross out the admin fee and tell the lease company when they complain that they are making the money via interest so why should the customer pay you extra for the privelige. Can you remap chaps not do something similar? Instead of just accepting the fee, and charging your fee on top (The real bit ) challenge it, get it reduced, that would make it cheaper without YOU loosing out and more people would buy it!
Why should you let a third party dictate the cost of your work and then YOU get all the flak about the price.

Not having a go at anyone, just voicing what plenty of people have said at meets etc. In effect, not just IMHO but many others

Mikey <off to clean his car ready for the NBO >

Andy McCord

I have recd an e-mail this morn from a person who claims to know what the actual cost of a TEK licence per car is, if what this person is telling me is true then we are all well & truly in the wrong job!!!!

STi wanna Subaru

iTrader: (1)

As I've said before it's all down to charging what you can get away with. While there is no real competition then the prices will remain IMHO high.

People are obviously paying these prices so as the mapper why would you consider dropping your fee........I wouldn't!

JPR

Hit the nail on the head!

Typical Britain, we all moan, moan, moan about it, but we still pay it. We all know that we get ripped off a majority of the time.

Gridlock Mikey

I'm not suggesting that the Mapper reduces his earnings, merely that he challenges the licence fee.

Example

Licencing Fee £300
Mappers Fee £300
Total £600

Challenge licence fee, get it reduced
Licencing fee £100
Mappers Fee £300
Total £400

Everyones a winner apart from the "Dick Turpins" at the beginning of the chain

Can you mail me the licencing fee?
If it's really cheap, i'll set a company up and EMPLOY mappers. If the margins are that mental, then should easily be able to afford to pay them

Mikey

carl

I've long thought this about the Impreza tuning scene.
Consider: set of Nitron coilovers for a Cerbera (£45,000 car) -- £900
set of coilovers for a Scoob (£20,000 car) -- £1200+