ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Here here Evil.

How many times have you been cruising down a country A or B road at 60-70mph and see some doddery fool in a metro (or similar) pulls on to the road infront of you and make no attempt to "make decent progress" I.e pottering at 40 in a 60 limit? You have to slam on the anchors or forced to over-take. (very irritating when there was no traffic behind you - so why did'nt they wait?)

If during a driving test you failed to "make good progress" I'm sure you would fail the test. (Someone correct me on this and make me look stupid )

Or the people oblivious to world outside their car. You know, the ones who drive at 45mph in a 60 limit, then pass through village with a 30mph limit...and make no adjustment to their speed and still drive at 45mph??? Its pretty obvious that have failed to notice anything!

My opinion is that everyone should have re-tests, say every 5 to 10 years. In the end it can only benefit as it makes sure we are all safe to drive.

BTW I'm 23year old scooby (turbo) driver, and been driving for 6 years without crashing....yet


editforpunctuationandspellingandgrammer

[Edited by ALi-B - 5/1/2003 12:44:44 PM]

DazW

iTrader: (1)

Driving standards in the UK are getting progressively worse (along with my spelling ), I say implement the following draconian rules:

1. Make the bloody test relevant i.e. motorway driving & lane discipline
2. Valid eye test cert. when you get your tax.
3. Re-test every 3 years, at least gravedodgers then get to have a look at the Highway Code. Fail the test & you’re on probation for 3 months- don’t pass within this? ...Sorry back to provisional- this'll also 'sort out' the 'Maureen's' of this world!
4. Claim on your Ins. by a third party on a public highway, see above.
5. More than 6 points on yer license ...see point 3 ...hang on scrub that one

...At least driving schools would like my suggestions!


[Edited by DazW - 5/1/2003 1:33:02 PM]

EvilKyote

You wanna know why that might be?

The fact that people DO NOT PAY ATTENTION!!!! if those drivers drove for what they can see and looked ahead instead of having their eyes glued on the bumper of the car in front they would see that there is a traffic cue ahead and slow down in time!

Now, before you say 'but it is a blind corner' the same applies, if people looked ahead, they would be able to see other cars brake lights coming on, now, unfortunatly because most people do not pay attention they are gonna go round the bend see the stopped cars and slam on their brakes!

The did not observe the obvoius clue, BRAKE LIGHTS! (I've seen this all to often) If they were thinking ahead and thinking about what might be round the bend, when they see brake lights come on they should automatically start to ease off and apply the brakes if needed, as they should think, 'Right, Brake lights on the cars going round the bend, what could cause them to do that? maybe there is a cue of traffic or slow moving vehicle that I cannot see yet'

The clues are ALWAYS there! People just need a better perception of hazards and the information presented to them!

Quote:
'every day at rush hour the traffic builds up in the 30mph area, every day ppl who havent slowed to 30mph lock up and skid because they suddenly hit traffic ques. EVERY DAY, on occassion they crash.'

If they had been paying attention then this would not happen! they would have had plenty of time to stop and not need to panic and hit the brakes!

Here are some abtract examples,

Approaching a blind bend, skid marks on the road (Most people miss these or just ignor them) and they tell you very useful information! Many people have misjudged the bend, therefore using that information should back off a little! Apart from which, as I have stated many time, if you drive for what you can see, which means you can stop in the distance you can see, if people do this, then even if there is a fallen tree across the road around the bend, they should be able to safely stop in time!

Very simple really!

Ergo, just proved my point once again!

[Edited by EvilKyote - 5/1/2003 3:08:57 PM]

RICH WILD

Given a few recent threads which have highlighted young and inexperienced drivers getting hold of cheaper old Scoobs and giving the car a bad name, I just thought I'd mention the worst example of dangerous driving I think I've ever seen last night on the M60.

The car was.....a Porsche Boxster S!

Now, you'd think someone with enough dosh to buy one of these would have the common sense to notice danger (unless he/she is simply a wodded chimp)

But, this car came up behind 2 cars in the outside lane (rush hour)
which were doing 80-90mph, tailgated the back car less than 5 feet from his bumper, undertook both cars and swerved hard back in front of them as he was coming up on another car in the middle lane (as he couldn't get round them quick enough )

What an irresponsible plonker. [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

Just shows it's not just Subarus that can get a bad rep due to the actions of a few idiots.


Rich

Spoon

Sounds wrong the way you put it but are you sure the other 2 hadn't been stuck in the 3rd lane since the start of their journey?

Tailgating is wrong no doubt and extremely dangerous but sitting a safe distance behind someone in lane 3 who is doing say 75mph just lets them think they can continue for as long as they like and compounds the crass congestion we see on the motorways, when actually good lane discipline would clear this overnight.

Of course their argument will always be " The speed limit is 70, why would you need to go faster" and indeed as it's the law, they win.

If drivers were better in just the basic understanding of road craft then i'm sure limits could even be raised to reflect modern technology.

Progressive driving this day and age is actually interpreted as dangerous driving mainly because of the appalling standard of driving from the majority of road users.

Undertaking, like in America is great, your journey is completed far quicker than you could ever hope to have acheived it in the UK.

We have mirrors on both sides of the car so it should be possible here but I doubt it would be an easy transformation.

Speed does'nt kill, bad driving does, speed is just an ingredient which often makes the final picture seem worse.

blueE9

don't buy the tailgating, but sometimes you just have to go for the undertake to make the point as much as anything else. it was much worse on the bike, when no-one would ever pull over for you and the undertakes could be very fast executed and pretty safe but of couse the plod never see it that way.

Foot_Tapper

This type of manouvre is very common on mways now, just watch
out and be aware of it.
I see it at least once going home every friday.

and if someone tries it on, and i am in the position to do so . i will stop them pulling back out.
oh, and i do use all 3 lanes.

[Edited by Foot_Tapper - 4/29/2003 12:32:49 PM]

DaveD

iTrader: (2)

Swerving in front of cars on a motorway could potentially result in a pile-up. If the cars in lane 3 are not taking too much notice of what's going on around them, then suddenly seeing a car appear from the left in front of you will either result in a hard stab on the brakes, a swerve of avoidence or both.

Sadly you can't assume that everyone uses their mirrors these days!

It can be frustrating sitting behind cars who do not pull over from lane 3, but I think a lot of the time they do not realise that you will be past them within a few hundred yards.
My usual tactic is to slightly close the gap to the car in front if I think there is enough room for them to pull over. If they don't, fine, I'll pull back and wait for the next opportunity. Occasionally a flash of the headlights gets their attention, but as I say, it appears that most of these lane hoggers don't use their mirrors........

Either way, there is no excuse for undertaking in a agressive manner which could cause an accident. Sometimes you just have to sit back and go with the flow....even if that means arriving at your destination a few minutes later. Sometimes I'd rather sit in the near-side lane doing a constant 60mph than wrestle with the stop-start attitude of some tailgating drivers in the outside lane.

[Edited by DaveD - 4/29/2003 12:46:51 PM]

RICH WILD

Take your points guys,

I myself have undertaken before now, but this wasn't like that.

The cars weren't lane hoggers at all and were making fair progress 80-90mph (they passed me and I was doing 80)

But it was the aggressive way it was done. They weren't given chance to pull over. The cut back in was the worst bit, like something out of a Bond film. He had to point the car into the gap, he couldn't have pulled in whilst still facing forwards, there wasn't the room.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a pipe and slippers homo who puts fake Gatsos in his garden and sticks to the limits everywhere, I speed like the best of them but this was REALLY bad. Like you would drive on Playstation2, honestly.

Not funny.

Rich

[Edited by RICH WILD - 4/29/2003 12:49:10 PM]

blueE9

Take your point Foot - but are you honestly claiming you never do it yourself? You must admit that blocking people back out is pretty dangerous too!

The_Lizard

The flash-to-pass signal is seldom used here in the states, so some people become quite upset when it's done.

And here it's the left lane that is supposed to be kept clear for faster traffic. In fact, I think that is an enforced law in some states, keep right except to pass.

I drove on a freeway in in Los Angeles, and there were eight lanes and eight idiots running abreast, no way around them all. I complained to someone, and they said of course they don't think to move over, they don't expect anyone to move ahead of the pack.

Mr.M

Who hasn't undertook in a fit of rage on a congested motorway when obviously lane discipline would resolve most issues?

I regularly use the motorway, clocking up 20+k miles a year on them. And i've seen everything.

The latest thing i've seen happening around the midlands is HGV drivers nipping in to the fast lane in order overtake slower trucks, sometimes this has meant three abreast trucks travelling in the order of 50-60mph uphill for considerable distance.

It's quite normal for me to be sat behind somebody in the fast lane whilst the middle lane is barely busy, certainly not congested. This behaviour can lead to very aggresive driving from others causing them to undertake just to prove a point. I've done this in the past (about 2-3 times) and then had the driver who i've undertaken flashed lights, made hand gestures etc because they don't want to move over.

Until the law is changed and drivers are prosecuted more for bad lane discipline then things are not going to change.

Foot_Tapper

Hi Blue, no mate i dont do that, i know its frustrating sitting
in a Q in whichever lane it may be. But after having it done to me,
i know what its like.
The only time I undertake is when the usual Q in outside lane,
(which stops and starts), theres almost no-one in left lane.
So i move into left lane, when the outside lane slows and brakes yet again, i just keep moving at the same speed, and will obviously "undertake" some traffic.
As those who use the M3 north of winchester will understand, as that goes to 2 lanes for a few miles and 90% of the traffic will not budge out of the right hand lane.
This is totally different than moving to the inside and accelerating, in a desire to "make" a few places up the fast lane Q


Yep I also agree that in blocking someone from coming back out from my left who has just undertaken may also be dangerous.
But the person who has just done that will be watching the outside vehicle like a hawk for opportunity to cut back out.
I dont see why I (or anyone) should have to put up with it.
At least I will make a point to the other driver.
And I dont give a stuff what he/she thinks about it either.
I'm fed up with the ignorance of some drivers to other road users.


[Edited by Foot_Tapper - 4/29/2003 1:10:56 PM]

Echo

I had a close one today blasting round the twisties, just dropped down and bliped the gas ready for the sharpish bend (60 max) when some spotty t@£t in mkII Golf GTI comes round the other side on two wheels way too fast wiggling and squirming all over the place trying to stay in control and swiped on to my side of the road, thankfully the Scoobs superior handling allowed me to skew right on to the edge of the road and just miss him by an hair. It really looked like he was going off the road and was going to take me with him, wa@£$%!

Reckon he'd stolen the car :-(

I've yet to see a Scoob driven like that, even on track days!

Grrr.

Mike

VinnyP

Just a small point if there are 3 lanes you should move into the outside lane to overtake only then return, if you can be undertaken you are as guilty of bad lane discipline as the undertaker since it must have been possible for you to move into that lane.

Vince

banshi

Hiya Rich

Gota agree, the 60 & 62 are bloody lethal lately! Last week some tit in a beamer (just had to be didn't it) was weaving from inside to outside lane.

OK I admit I saw him in the mirrors & reduced available space to a point where he'd need ***** the size of a planet to get his deuchebarge into it. Made no difference though he just chucked it back to the nearside land and continued to force his way through.

What had he gained? When the traffic cleared about half a dozen cars and where the m'ways joined I was ahead 'cos he couldn't read spaces in mergeing traffic


Then tonight something like a ten vehicle pile up! Three ambulances, four appliances and the cutting crew, how the F does that happen at rush hour. Last one had the presence of mind to sling hs artic towards the centre lane before it hit the pantechnican in front. The cab was shoved back to the trailer except for the bit where the drivers seat and wheel were.

That guy should head for the nearest newsagent and buy a lottery ticket.

It's becoming a real jungle out there and given the years I've covered this route I start to wonder how long before I become the meat in a truck sandwich.

TurboKitty

Me. I undertake sometimes, but never in a strop. IMO, anyone driving in a paddy is more likely to cause an accident because they get so fixated on their goal that observation and awareness go out of the window.

I'm much calmer when driving than I am in every day life, and if I do get wound up I tend to move back to the left-hand lane and just sit at a steady speed for a while whilst I cool off.

Just my opinion, but I reckon that anyone who is happy to undertake or carry out aggressive manoeuvres whilst in a rage would be better off taking the time to learn to deal with the anger first.

edited to say:

Having said all this, I recognise I am nowhere near perfect. I do have a tendency to sit a tad too close behind the car in front if they won't move over and the lane inside them is clear. As someone has already pointed out, if you maintain a safe stopping distance they just carry on blissfully unaware. With some conscious effort, I have mostly stopped doing this, but sometimes when I am in a hurry all good intentions go out of the window.

[Edited by TurboKitty - 4/29/2003 11:07:23 PM]

ajm

The problem is that it only takes one car not to overtake in lane 3 to cause a queue. Most of the time when you see a queue in lane 3 (with traffic in lanes 1+2) everyone but the car at the front of that queue are trying to overtake whatever is in lane 2 but can't because the car at the front is just pacing it - so where are they supposed to go?

Going back into lane 2 makes no difference to the outcome, no one is going anywhere either way unless the bloke blocking lane 3 either overtakes and moves in, or the bloke in lane 2 is able to move to lane one, making a gap for him.

Therefore, to those who just bypass everyone in lane 3 by changing into the middle lane and "undertaking" what are you hoping to achieve? There is nowhere to go but back into lane 3 where you just came from!

I don't blame people for queueing up in lane 3 - they are just trying to overtake but are being blocked. I blame the twazzer at the front of said queue as he shouldn't be there in the first place!

austen_wrx

I hold my hand up and say i undertake the lane sitting tw@ts on the motorway. I never do it irratically or aggressively and always give them the oppurtuninity to move over first. If drivers moved into the empty lane on their left handside and all times, motorway conjestion would be reduced big time. [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

VinnyP

I blame the lead vehicle too, and I can see why everyone sits behind them.
Just saying that those that are following should move into lane 2, this has become such a common occurence that most don't even realise that its wrong. It's not an offence per se but nor is undertaking. I anticipate before long undertaking will also become commonplace.

Moving over would make a difference since all three lanes would fill up behind the idiot in the outside lane and the tailback would be shorter.

Vince

Nexuas

I had the results of this problem this morning. On a dual carrigway, we came off the roundabout into the outside lane and about four cars in front of me was a BLUE van, He could not accelerate as fast as the cars behind and so was holding the queue up. To his credit he was passing the the mobile flat cap in the left lane, but it took a while!!!

As soon as he was more than a car length past the car on the left a BMW that was following him cut to the inside and under took. By this time I am past the flat cap and waiting for the van to pull over, but just as the van starts to move the next car following him undertakes and he has to swerve back into the right hand lane to avoid hitting him, and this starts a deluge from behind, car after car come up the inside to under take and the van is stuck in the outside lane, with myself and the car in front of me following behind. This continues till we catch a slow moving lorry, as soon as the van is past the lorry it pulls in, and I am sure he would have pulled i sooner had it not been for the impatiant ******.

Once they all saw we were approaching the lorry they start to try and force their way into the righthand lane, in gaps that barely (not even) a safe braking distance.

WE NEED TO HAVE A SERIOUS DRIVER EDUCATION PROGRAM IN THIS COUNTRY, ONE THAT WILL TEACH EVERYONE TO DRIVE PROPERLY.

LANE HOGGERS AND QUEUE JUMPERS BOTH NEED TO BE SORTED OTHERWISE THE GAPS BETWEEN THEIR DRIVING ABILITY IS GOING TO GET WIDER AND MORE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO GET KILLED.

I would be quite happy to have my driving assessed every five years or so. Maybe insurance could be linked to your performance?

Mungo

I also undertake lane hoggers, but always having given them a chance to move over. I hold back at normal distance for maybe 20 seconds, draw a little closer for a few more, and if they still haven't noticed me and the gap in the left lane, I drop a cog and pass them quickly on the left hand side, often continuing in that lane if it's clear.
Often at night on 3 lane motorways I'll be travelling in lane 1 (the nearside lane) and come across somebody (usually in a Volvo) in lane 2. I just continue past them in lane 1, having paused to give them a chance to move over. Why should I have to make 4 lane changes instead of 2 just because they can't be arsed to make 1? If somebody is such a bad driver that they have to sit in lane 2 to give themselves enough room to not hit the armco, they shouldn't be on the motorway.

Leslie

The problem with having a periodic driving test, apart from the difficulty in even setting it up because of the numbers of drivers involved, is that doing a test or driving course is not going to change the habits of the drivers described. They know perfectly well that what they are doing is wrong and dangerous but because of their mindset they will go back to doing exactly the same thing after the test of course.

The only way is for them to get the appropriate penalty when they are caught at it which will make them think twice in the future.

Les

wrxgirl

I have to agree with ajm here - it is the lead car causing the problem, and everyone else in the outside lane is just trying to overtake those in the middle lane, not 'lane hogging'. The outside lane is called the 'overtaking' lane for a reason - undertaking is incredibly dangerous - simply because it is not expected in this country. I recently saw a young kid undertake a lorry (he undertook in the inside lane, lorry in the middle) - whilst he was undertaking the lorry decided to pull back into the inside lane and forced him off the road - ok the lorry should have checked blind spots etc but he did not expect someone to be undertaking him ... which is fair enough, they shouldn't have been! I agree that bad driving causes most of the congestion on the motorways and if people undertake, that's fine by me - as long as they don't expect to push their way back out in front of me a few yards ahead. I also agree with the insurance related re-test - but yep, it would be pretty difficult to keep tabs on and stuff. Anyway, at the end of the day, everybody makes mistakes, and everybody has done something they are ashamed of / know was pretty **** driving on reflection - and nobody is perfect BUT I do agree that undertaking is bloody dangerous, especially on a motorway where high speeds also have to be taken into the equation.

Pogue

I've driven quite a bit on the continent and always found it much more relaxing. Everyone (almost) always moves back to the "slow" lane when they've overtaken, hence the "fast" lane is almost always clear. It's the only way that the autobahns can function properly (imagine the autobahn with gimps sitting in the "fast" lane, it just wouldn't work.)

Dales

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when I took my test there was no motorway involved.

Its no wonder people don't know how to drive on them when its not even a requirement of the basic test.

Dales

FAO Rich - it wasn't a dark blue Y reg Boxster S was it?

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

note to WRXgirl. If someone is in a trucks "blind Spot" the driver can't see them!

Same applies to vans with standard mirrors.

Used to drive a large van on the motorway and got really peeved off by some 4rsehole sitting in my blind spot....could'nt see them but I knew they were there!

Also people who cut you up. An old transit (not new ones - rocketships ) maxes out at 80mph and takes a mile to get back there from 60mph (same applies to a non-turbo Citreon Berlingo). The last thing I want is to hold back for some dawdler in the middle lane causing a big queue in the fast lane!!

L55 REP

iTrader: (1)

ali-b isnt that a contradiction.

"if hes in the truck drivers blind spot he cant see him" then you say
"the twonk behind you, you cant see but you know he,s there"

??????

im a coach driver an clock up 100,s of k,s on the motorway and if a truck/coach cant see a vehicle to its left <specialy if it,s just overtaken it> then the driver needs to adjust his mirror
we have two mirrors per side so no exuses ,,,,

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

I meant you saw him approach in the mirror, but you can't see 'cos he's along side just behind the cab. If I were half asleep I would'nt know they were there.

Don't nit pick.

Not all of us have twin mirrors (as in a pair addition to the 2 normal mirrors). Great if you do. Most vans and trucks have them now or little blind spot mirrors beneath the mains. But there are still vans out there like LDV's (shudder) without them.