Stu

From the news today:

Are these good moves or are they just going to penalise enthusiasts more? A lot of it looks very sensible but with regards to speeding they claim to be targeting "Boy racers" but it seems to me that they are just getting stricter on speeding in general which could be bad news for a lot of us even though we are safe drivers and speed is not the major cause of accidents.


<I>"Tougher penalties for bad drivers are to be unveiled by the Government in a package of new measures, it emerged today.

The long-awaited road safety and speed review will include: A new offence of excessive speeding to curb road racers, carrying more penalty points and earlier disqualification.

Harsher punishments for drink drivers with high-risk offenders singled out for longer bans.

Higher fines for motorists caught driving carelessly - up from £2,000 to £5,000.

Strict new US-style retraining schemes for convicted offenders, including those guilty of roadside violence and drink drivers.

Higher fixed penalty fines for traffic offences.

Proposals for fast, new digital roadside breathalysers to ram home the war against drink drivers.

Plans for a consultation on a mandatory six-month L-plate period for learners

The measures, to be unveiled next Wednesday following intense consultation between Home Office and Department of Transport officials, are expected to be welcomed by both motoring and road safety groups.

The new excessive speeding offence will re-affirm the tough, effective stance the Government has taken on road safety.

It is aimed at catching boy racers who blatantly break limits by a wide margin and for whom the standard speeding offence is no longer deemed harsh enough.

Ministers are also expected to announce that fixed penalties will rise from £40 to £60 for offences such as red-light jumping and "moving traffic" violations.

Following the success of the US-style driver rehabilitation schemes, first unveiled by the Evening Standard, the Government will announce plans for excessive speeders and those convicted of roadside attacks to be sent back to "school" to improve their attitude and driving skills. The courses are likely to be optional but those attending would receive lesser sentences. Motorists who drive without proper insurance, causing misery for their victims, will also be targeted.

The Government will consider whether newly qualified drivers should carry Continental-style "P" (for provisional) plates for their first year on the road.

The new excessive speeding offence will delight campaigners such as the Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety.

Today, PACTS director Rob Gifford said: "We welcome the fact that we will have not merely a target for casualty reduction but a strategy as to how it can be met."

Edmund King, executive director of the RAC Foundation, said: "We welcome the fact that the Government appears to be targeting the minority hard core of irresponsible drivers. More effective targeting and strict sentencing will save lives; responsible motorists will welcome measures to curb excessive speeders, road ragers and drink drivers."</I>

spence

Er, how about better training and education... oh yeah I forgot every accident is caused by speeding...

Following the success of the US-style driver rehabilitation schemes... Work in the US so Tony had better take it on, does any one in our government have a mind of their own. I am not saying it is not a good idea but why do they have to be such a bunch of copy cats... I despair.

Andrew Dixon

Maybe I'm getting old, but that all seems pretty sensible to me.

Nice to read about the new offence of "excessive speeding to catch boy-racers". In other words; girls, you can carry on driving as normal, but us blokes will have to watch out.

The phrase "excessive speeding" seems to imply that there is a level of speeding which is not excessive though, i.e. acceptable?

Wonder where they'll set the "excessive" limit though? 50% above the posted speed limit?

Richard Simpson

OK curbing the boy racer, yeah right!

When was the last time you saw effective speeding deterents in town? We all know that speeding in urban areas is the main killer and the boy racers domain, but with nearly zero patrols how are they going to catch them?

They will tell us they are successful by putting more gatsos on quiet country roadss and pulling more from motorways. Statistics up but deaths unnafected as over 70% of car related deaths occur in towns.

I am in favour of in-town speed reductions but why not raise motorway limits and use a variable limit during adverse conditions? This may change the attitude of drivers to judge their actions on conditions and locations, not what they can get away with.

My two pence worth.

R

GavinP

Isn't this like most recent Government press releases - a raise in tax hidden in the waffle ?

Increase the fine from Gatso's by 50% perhaps ?

Thanks

Gavin

Paul Wilson

I like the theory the French have got for their M'ways 130 kph but 110 kph if it is raining. How easy is that?
I suggest 85 mph dry
70 mph rain/wet

Joe

Let's face it none of us bought these cars to drive slowly. The issue of driver competence is a difficult one to police, and it is a fact that speed and reaction time are related. Why do we want limits increased, even on motorways......will we get there any quicker or is it just to increase the thrill of driving. Whatever the case, public highways are not the place to do it. It doesn't matter how experienced we are, there will always be less experienced drivers on the same roads.

Traffic Light GP's, country lanes at midnight etc etc have all been confessed by Impreza owners on this BBS. And lets face it a replacement box is not there for looks, and are high powered driving lights necessary when driving within the current legal limits....I think not.

Increasing speed anywhere can only decrease safety. You don't have to study fundamental dynamics to understand that.

I guess some people are afraid to take their cars to the track, just in case they realise they can't drive after all.

Truth hurts.....Speed kills.

I'm sure that new legislation will **** people off but it may make track days more populated...and nobody will have the need to winge further.

Neil Smalley

OK Mr Troll I'll bite.

Nobody on this BBS condone's reckless or dangerous driving. In fact you can be booted out of the drivers club for it. Nearly every post that I have read regarding speed, This Vs that has containted a reply saying 'get a life' 'Do it on a race track' etc etc.

You will notice that anytime someone says 'my cossie is faster or xx is faster than your subaru' the date and time for the challenge is'nt midnight at tesco's carpark but a properly organised track meeting.
I think people here will agree with you about road racing, it's not big and it's not clever.

You will find a few idiots driving Subaru's but then I think you will find more dangerous drivers driving 'slower cars' such
as Metro's, Micra's and Vectras. Out of all the motoring forums I read I have found this one to have the most responsible attitude towards safety and driving.

As part of joining the SIDC(my letters in the post!) you are offered a FREE day's driver training with a Police Instructor to help you to learn to drive properly. A great number of people here have taken/or are taking the IAM or RoSPA advanced driving courses and have been on a performance car driving course. A while ago there was a thread about car mods and somebody asked
'what's the best mod for my car?' The reply
that stuck in my mind was driver training.

This is not the attitude of a puffa jacket wearing boy racer yobbo club, but one of a responsible, considerate club that enjoys the art of driving.

As for speed kills. Of course it's true, but
only if you are moving. Stationary cars and pedestrians don't kill anyone.

I for one would rather not hit anything than think 'It's ok I hit them at 20mph i'll only
maim them'.

The speed kills thing has been done to death
esp by a blinkered, short sighted goverment(both tory and which Blair). So i'm not going to answer that other than to say

Look at an official government report and study here and tell me the government's not concentrating in the wrong area.

MarkO

On another related topic, an person I know (who shall remain unamed to save their blushes) passed their test about 7-8 months ago. Since then they managed to get nicked for speeding twice, and have now had their licence revoked, meaning that they are effectively banned for 6 months or so whilst they have to re-learn and retake their test.

Although I have every sympathy for the person, I think this is an excellent idea and should get the message home that just because you've passed a test doesn't automatically give you the right to blat about everywhere at twice the speed limit. It'll certainly make them think twice about speeding inappropriately - if only from the peer pressure to own/drive a car.

mike_nunan

Joe,

Speed kills yeah? I also hear that power corrupts. If you look at the government's approach to transport policy, you will find some interesting themes that have nothing to do with road safety and a great deal to do with revenue generation and vote-catching.

The appropriate choice of speed is one of the most crucial decisions that a driver can make, and I won't argue with your point about competence being hard to police, either. However, some of the other sentiments you express, culminating in your repetition of the "speed kills" slogan, show that you have fallen prey to the propaganda.

There are occasions where the visibility and road conditions mean that you have less chance of coming into conflict with other road users at 100mph+ than you do at 25mph in other circumstances. If you can't appreciate this point, then IMO it's not a track day you should participate in, but an advanced road driving course.

In all seriousness, if you are interested, speak to Don Palmer of Driving Development or John Lyon at HPC. Either of them will show you how to be both a faster *and* a safer road driver.

-= mike =-

johnfelstead

Joe, you are obviously new to this BBS.

Lots of the impreza owners in this club take driver training seriously. We attend police training and wet weather training courses more than any other group i have ever come accross.

I have to take issue with you on the point you make about not being able to get anywhere at a fast pace.

I have just completed a 1172 mile non-stop treck around scotland in snow/blizzard and clear conditions. I was running my engine in on my sport and driving nice and smooth but at a quick pace, always well within the limits of the car and conditions.

I managed to do an average speed of 49MPH. If the roads were clear of snow and ice i would easily have averaged 70MPH in complete safety, top speeds of well over 100MPH would not have been excesive on some of the roads i was driving. And yes, i allways slowed to 30MPH when passing through villages, even at 3am in the morning. I respect peoples safety in their towns and villages, on the open road or a clear motorway 60/70MPH is very slow.

Joe

Driver training is most definitely the most significant performance improvement anyone can invest in. Until recent commitments, I was involved in providing such training, as well as participating in club level motorsport.

I wonder how many Impreza owners have undergone such training ??...Of course some of you will have but as a percentage of the impreza population I think the m=number will be comparitively small.

Regarding buying an Impreza for 'options'...
sounds convincing. But all the options can be utilised within our current legal limits.

The problem with these limits is that they apply to all of us...not just the experienced ones among us.

And I repeat...why do we want the 70 limit increased...to allow us to get to our destination quicker ? On UK roads you can't get anywhere quickly.



[This message has been edited by Joe (edited 27-02-2000).]

Joe

John,

Obviously the volume of traffic on the roads in Scotland or at 3am is not representative of the more congested parts of the UK.

And how can legislation be contolled depending on how busy a road happens to be. Yes, on the open road or motorway 60/70 may seem slow...but all laws must be enforceable.

Joe.

johnfelstead

joe, your missing the point completely.

Just because the max speed limit is 70MPH doesn't mean you have to drive at that max speed all the time, it may be appropriate to be doing 50MPH for the conditions you are in.

Inapropriate speed is the issue here.

Having a speed limit for the whole country based on what politicians see in london is absurd.

There needs to be concentration on apropriate speed. Putting gatso's on country roads where there is no danger of causing a problem when driving at 90MPH is not appropriate and does nothing to aid road safety.

The government is taking the easy option of ignoring the need for better training and policing of dangerous drivers.

Read my post on my trip to scotland, you will see in there some references to the types of drivers that need policing.

Joe

John,

Yeah right !!!

You seem to be spouting the obvious regarding constant 70mph.

How do propose to write legislation to control inappropriate speed ? and don't you think it would cause even more problems trying to define the word inappropriate.

If we take your example of a country road....is it straight, is it narrow, are there concealed junctions, is it raining, no street lighting, a road full of sheep round the next corner, an old dear out for a scenic drive...etc etc. And you mention 90mph ! Or is this just APPROPRIATE when all the conditions are APPROPRIATE!!

Sounds pretty irresponsible to me.

And if you read my opening line in my last post...driver training was mentioned.

johnfelstead

oh dear.

I am obviously wasteing my time trying to make a resonable point to a person with a totally closed mind.

Why do you feel it is neccesary to have a 60MPH speed limit on country roads and 70MPH on the motorway?

Are you not capable of reading road conditions and setting you driving to be sensible in those conditions?

I see no problem with doing 150MPH on a long motorway stretch where you can see for miles ahead, there are plenty of places in the word where this is totally acceptable.

The culture of current driving is to take responsibility for your actions away from the driver and make them act like robots that dont think about anything apart from what there speedo says.

It's easy to make money from speeding motorists, its hard to proscecute for driving reclessly, that is why gatso's are popular with the government, easy money that makes no serious effort to improve road safety.

The stat's show quite clearly that the introduction of gatso's has not helped cut road deaths, i fear it will ultimately increase them as people stop concentrating on what they are doing and start concentrating purely on the speedo reading.

[This message has been edited by johnfelstead (edited 27-02-2000).]

johnfelstead

oh, and by the way joe, are you trying to tell me you can write something like this extract of yours and say you drive within the speed limits, i think not!

-----Get a grip.....is any Scoob enthusiast really interested in mpg.....if so then the thrill can't be getting through and maybe a lesser car would be more approptiate...like a diesel !!-----

If you do feel this way and you stay within the speed limits then IMHO you must be a crap driver.


[This message has been edited by johnfelstead (edited 27-02-2000).]

DocJock

Joe

Your tone is getting more sanctimonious with each posting. Smacks of a man losing an argument.

Seriously though, everybody who posted disagreeing with you did so in a reasonable tone. Ignore/disagree with their opinions but please don't belittle them for daring to disagree.

As far as my own opinion, of course there are occasions when it is not inappropriate to exceed non-urban 60/70 limits on safety grounds. Just because blanket limits are the easiest to enforce in no way makes them correct, if we must have them however surely it makes sense to enforce them most stringently where the vast majority of injuries occur ie urban 30/40 limited areas. These should also be VERY heavily penalised to get the message home.(including compulsory driver training)

Regards, John

DocJock

John

He's getting to you mate.

LOL John

p.s. I can understand why !

Joe

Dockjoc and John....Boys

I confess to owning an Impreza turbo which has been race prepared with too many mods to mention...and which is now sitting in the garage waiting for new suspension. It will race again...but not on the highway. I also come clean that mpg is never high on my priority list and if you think I am reckless on the public highway then please don't assume too much...My road car is an Audi A8...and I'm not sure it it has ever gone over 3500rpm.....but I wonder if the race cars I've owned have ever gone under 5000 rpm.

You also are selective in my extracts...maybe you are a politician with a blue tie.

I don't disagree with the Urban issue...who would...and yes of course measures are needed. This is all common sense and common knowledge....and is it worth discussing further.

All your instances of driving outside current limits may be safe if they are isolated from the mass. What we are talking about is national legislation.

What do you propose regarding NATIONAL legislation changes.....and please give your proposals some serious thought....or is this all supposed to just light humour.

As a teaser....if 70 is too low for appropriate circumstances....please detail a new value and where it would be appropriate....and how it would be enforced.

Joe.

DocJock

Joe,

Sorry, I don't recall selecting any particular extracts from your postings in my comments, they were regarding the overall tone.

However, regarding your "teaser" I'll don my Nomex underwear and fire away.
Please digest this before sarcastic replies.

The 60/70mph limit is an anachronism which has no meaning in everyday driving and is as often too fast for the conditions as it is too low. Therefore it would be more sensible to return to the old "derestricted areas" approach.

Before sending the men in white coats round consider these ;

1. Reckless/dangerous drivers do not keep to limits anyway. This does not necessarily mean that all people exceeding 60/70 limits are reckless/dangerous.

2. Driving all the time at speeds not exceeding the posted limits in no way makes you a safer/better driver than the driver who doesn't.

3. The onus should at all times on the driver to make sure that he/she is driving at a speed appropriate to the conditions, not abrogated to some arbitrary figure set by a civil servant on a sunny day in June 1962 or whenever and given no consideration since. (Except as a means of collecting money)
If people can't make these judgements for themselves THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE A LICENCE.Remember that pink thing is a Driving LICENCE and as such is a privilege not a right (old rant I know) but the point is when people blatantly demonstrate no understanding of one of the most important decision making processes in driving there is obviously something wrong in the teaching/examining of driving skills.
Too many drivers in this country can just about handle the basic mechanical skills of starting/steering/stopping the vehicle without hitting anything (as long as nothing unusual crops up) and look nowhere other than the back of the car in front.

As you will have worked out by now I am advocating much, and I mean MUCH higher standards of education to start with and continual compulsory ongoing training afterwards. How many people have never attended further training at work. Why should driving a car be any different.And before you say it , yes that applies to you and me as well , retesting required to keep existing licences. No bleating please about livelihoods and lost licences, if you can't reach the standards you can't have a car.

There should also be a corresponding improvement in police training and a provision for more discretion on their part regarding prevailing conditions at any one time.

There we are then I'll sum it up

Make drivers THINK about their driving.
Make police THINK about our driving not just wave laser guns around.
Treat reckless/dangerous driving with the severity it begs ie remove licence/car and jail anyone caught driving without one.

Don't come back with people couldn't afford it, you wouldn't want them behind you if they couldn't afford new brake pads.

Regards Attila (formerly known as DocJock)

johnfelstead

docjoc, my sentiments entirely.

There should be no speed limit set outside villages/built up areas.

We should have a system similar to autobarnes in germany where certain sections are limited, other sections have no speed limit.

The onus must be placed on driver education, training and skills testing and convicting drivers of recless driving.

We need to get away from the nanny state mentality that serves nobody and train people how to drive properly. Putting accross this false message that speed kills is not helping to save lives, it is simply stopping us takleing the real issues of incompetant driving.

also joe, if you are only using 3500RPM on the road then i suggest you are a bad driver. One of the most dangerous things you can do on the road is overtake someone at a slow pace, if you are passing a car and just using 3500RPM then you are leaving yourself in a vulnerable possition for longer than is neccessary.

Of course you could be one of those anoying people that sits behind a slow moving vehicle and refuses to overtake it, meaning the people behind get frustrated and take more risks to pass you and the car infront of you.

Stu

DocJock & John,

Well said, I agree with you.

Joe,

I'm not in agreement with what you said and you seem to be narrow minded. You implied that you are a scooby driver because you save the enjoyment for racing on a track. You also drive an A8? Not short of money then and can afford to race.

Lots of us are probably more passionate about our cars than you and we can't afford numerous cars and weekend racers. So, for us we try to safely get enjoyment out of them on the roads. That means thinking and if it is safe to go at 150 then we will but often I/we drive within the speed limits as it is the only safe option.
You I am afraid to say sound like you work with fatty 2 Jags.

DavidRB

"Truth hurts.....Speed kills."

3% of road deaths occur on motorways.

Go figure.

Joe

Docjock,

Very interesting what you say....I think it all made sense. I think retrospective training and assessment would be a difficult task however. And I still question how policing would be managed.

John,

Thanks for the personal slander, I guess I shouldn't have been surprised. And obviously anyone with an ounce would have realised that I may have gone over my stated rpm now and again...you need to read between the lines a little more.
As for your comment of no limits....MMmmmm.
Have you ever wondered why limits were introduced in the first place.
And you never commented on the method of enforcement....I am really interested in your proposals....if you have any that is !!

Joe.

DocJock

Joe

I think we both want the same thing. We are just coming at it from different angles.

Just because something is difficult doesn't mean we should settle for an easier option. I realise that no Government would have the bottle to go this far.

As for policing, the key word is POLICING rather than enforcement. It could be done, it should be done.The current situation devalues the role of our traffic police. They are highly trained, let them put that training/experience into practice by giving them much more discretion. This of course involves according them some respect, not treating them as the enemy.

This all of course takes money, but we all know the tax on a gallon (showing my age) of SUL.

These of course are just my opinions. Apologies if this sounds condescending,it is not meant to.

Regards, John

johnfelstead

joe, apologies for getting a bit personal, it is not my usual style.

you were rather condesending yourself if you take the time to re-read your posting.

I want the police to concentrate on prosecuting/retraining bad drivers, going after people who break the speed limit in safe conditions serves nobody and increases the lack of respect that skilled drivers have for the traffic police.

I respect the job the traffic police do, if you read some of my previous posts you will see i have praised them for some of the schemes i have been involved with them on.

As to your question on the method of enforement. If there are no speed restrictions in appropriate areas then the police dont have to enforse speeding, they then have to concentrate on prosecuting for recless driving.

DocJock

Joe

We're not ganging up on you. Honest!

John

Joe

John,

You know that speed restrictions will remain (and become tighter) and cameras will increase in numbers.
What do you think the public reaction would be to removing speed limits even on the 'safest ' roads.

Joe...and don't you think a spellchecker on the BBS is long overdue!!