SCOSaltire

I blip the throttle on down shifts... but tend to have to come off the brakes to do that..

So, was thinking about heel and toeing...

I take it u heel the throttle and toe the brake?
but i could be wrong :d

so what do u do?
any tips on mastering it?

Ta

chiark

Correct method:
Brake normally, with your toes (and ball of your foot) on the brake.

Rotate your foot so your heel is over the accelerator.

*blip*

Method I use most of the time:
Cover brake with majority of foot, rotate foot slightly and blip throttle with right-hand edge of foot rather than full heel.

I have big feet, which helps

Molds

Wear skate shoes, like DCs or Vans - nice and wide ;-)

Stephen Read

This old chestnut!

I am no expert but find it astonishing that so many people claim to be capable of reliable/accurate/effective heel and toe downshifts!

The pedal layout on the majority of road cars does not make it easy (or even possible) but probably the most imporant point to me appears to be that the biting point of our heavily servoed brakes is 'too far down' the pedals travel to make it possible to use the right hand side (or heel) of your right foot to modulate the throttle effectively.

Race cars have a vastly different set up with a rock solid brake pedal that has it's biting point very near the top of its travel and this is designed to make heel and toe possible.

I also beleive that the main benefits of heel and toe downshifts is when driving at 100%. ie. approach a corner at 100mph at 6,000+rpm in third, go smoothly onto the brakes and give it maximum braking force and then grab 2nd at 5,000ish rpm and get smoothly back onto the power as you prepare to accellerate back to 7,000 rpm before selecting third again.

It is of no real benefit if you are approaching the same corner at 100mph in 5th, brake and select 4th. Your synchromesh 'box is well up to the job of copin with that situation without over straining the transmission.

I believe that even with snazzy alloy pedal extensions, it is not within the realm of possibility that a mere mortal could obtain any significant advantage from 'pukka' heel and toe downshifts in road car in road driving situations.

Disclaimer! YMMV. No pets were harmed during the drafting of this post. etc.

[Edited by Stephen Read - 1/17/2003 11:23:23 AM]

chiark

Well, I do it because it makes for a smoother ride on a day-to-day basis, not just when *****-out driving

Plus you get to hear the exhaust a little more, so that effect is worth the time to give it a bash

ex-webby

One thing to remember when learning this for the first time... is that you don't need to use your heel at all.

the name "Heel and Toe" comes from when the brakes used to be on the right and the throttle on the left. Also the peddles used to pivot from the floor (like they still do in some cars). In that situation you could turn your foot the other way (the way it's meant to go!! )

All th best

Simon

lali

I agree the heel is very rarely used...

The best way to do it is to have your pedals altered, easiest way being to have a slightly larger "loud" pedal. Then you brake with the ball of your foot and blip with the outside edge...

..practice makes perfect... It's hard to start with and feels all wrong but get it right and my god it feels good!

try your local IAM group they should be able to show you how...

or even better try Don Palmer at www.donpalmer.com

LG John

I often use it coming up to a roundabout where I might be able to go straight on. It gives a nice smooth downchange. Sometime I do it and don't release the clutch cause I'm uncertain as to whether the roundabout it clear but its fun to hear the blip anyway

Edcase

Been playing with this myself. So do you blip as you change OUT of gear, when you between gears, or as you enter the lower gear?

The guy who took me around Goodwood in his 355 had this to a fine art and it was insanely smooth, especially as the 355 is so fast-revving.

SWRTWannabe

Test drove a Peugeot 106 (not for me - the wife was looking for a new car) and the pedals are so small and close together you couldn't help heel-toeing

(Actually, I think with a bit of effort I could have reached the clutch too!)

BOB.T

Doesn't the ferrizla do the blipping itself, I think the F1 shifter fingmy does?

I do the heel n toe thing for gentle-moderate braking, if it's a full n stop or say 5th down the box to 2nd in a hurry I'll just brake normally.

It's not just to get into gear, more to avoid unsettling the car

t888-sti7

But what are the benefits of heel and toe??????

chiark

Matching engine speed will not cause the car to lurch. To be honest, it's probably finesseing for my style of driving rather than keeping the car balanced...

Jza

You'll have a much bigger p£nis (not sure what that equates to for girls) and can post that your "in the heel and toe club" (see threads above) on the web if you can do it..........

.......... but not much else in the "real world"

Jza

I cant heel and toe

SCOSaltire

i am comfortable with the size of my pen&s thanks

i blip on changedown because the car feels smoother when u do it.
it also sounds good - which is a bonus
the clutch doenst have to take up the strain as things match speed

in day to day driving i could just brake and changedown without bliping the throttle. but i want to learn this coz i would like to.

cheers for the help... ill be practising it when i drive now (look out behind or in front )


[Edited by SCOSaltire - 1/17/2003 3:08:11 PM]

Jza

Jza

ozzy

Phil,

I thought you were asking about some new moves ready for a young farmers disco

Sounds like the start of the Gay Gordon

Stefan

Edcase

Bob T the 360 F1 does not the 355 manual which is what I drove / was driven in.

Ed

Edcase

Also, regardless of changes in performance, doesn't heel and toe-ing when driving in a spirited fashion reduce wear on transmission parts? Surely that alone is reason enough to do it, specially with tuned cars?

P1Fanatic

I cant see any reason to use it in either day to day driving or spirited driving. Maybe thats cos Im a crap driver but if you believe half the people on here youd think they were all budding Makkinens and Gronholms

SiPie

Agree 100% with P1 Fanatic

chiark

Forget I mentioned it. It's a waste of time and you're obviously a rally wannabe if you try it.

Someone asks a question, people answer and next you're saying we're all wannabees? My driving technique isn't great, I have no pretentions, just want to help.

Perhaps best off if we all just stick to discussing the bonnet scoop on the new sti, eh?

Edcase

Hear hear...

SCOSaltire

lol

i agree... i ask for help, i get help

i am happy, thanks

MrDeference

Learn to do it, and you will find that you are rewarded for doing it properly. It's like getting the right line; it doesn't matter, but if you like driving, then it's something you aspire to do the best you can.
It's not about posing, or anything like that - no one can see your feet when you drive. I only do it in the Impreza cos the car rewards you for doing it. I don't do it in the Clio cos it's a waste of time, and bloody difficult with the wooly throttle and overservoed brakes.

Edcase

Nobody answered my question about the optimimum point of blipping the throttle, presumably you are blipping it just before engaging the lower gear to try and rev-match?

MrDeference

Edcase,
If you are just heel and toeing, rather than double clutching, you will still be asking the synchros to do some work, so it doesn't matter at which point in the process you blip the throttle.

I guess the proper answer is that you time the blip so that the point in time where the engine speed is correct is when you would normally be bringing your foot off the clutch.

So, you could decide to blip when you first depress the clutch, but the chances are it would be fruitless as the revs would have died off before you can complete the change and let the clutch out.
Or, you could decide to do it after you are in the destination gear, but then you will have longer with your foot on the clutch as you wait for the engine speed to rise. Some where in between is ideal.

Jerome

The only time I heel and toe is when I'm driving a car prone to stalling when the revs die off. I use it when coming up to a junction or set of lights etc.

If I tried it at any other time I'd probably heel & toe myself straight into the nearest hedge...

ed_the_duck

I have set the accelerator pedal so that when the brake is depressed it is level to it.(or there abouts)

johnfelstead

I find the pedal setup on my STi to be absolutely spot on for heal and toe downshifts, it's one of the nicest setups on a road car i have ever driven. My westfield was atrocious.

I find it esential to use on track when doing hard high speed braking with the AP's, it makes selecting the right gear much easier/faster.

On the road it's not really needed so much, but it's nice to practice so when you do need it, it's second nature. It's much easier to do with proper race boots on.

I brake with the ball of my foot and have my leg at a slight angle, so that pushing my heal straight down with no twist at the ankle is enough to press the throttle. That way its easier to modulate the brake presure and keep a strong force, because you arent trying to spin your foot sideways and also backwards at the same time. It's easier on your joints too.

If you didnt know what i was doing you may think my leg is at a bit of a strange angle, or just think i was a bit of a nutter.