BBS "vs" vendors - a perspective (continued from PossumLink thread in Drivetrain)
25 February 2000, 11:45 AM
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I oringally wrote this as a comment in the original thread (http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/Forum9/HTML/000497.html) but thought better of it...
I agree that there is a tendency to put new products and vendors up on a pedestal, and then knock them off again. After a year or two around here, it's now pretty clear to me how and why this happens.
People get excited because they have bought something new (be it an ECU upgrade, suspension kit or Scooby-Doo stuffed animal) and post very complimentary things when they are still in the "honeymoon" period of ownership. Often these comments aren't very deep technically, and there is also a tendency to omit details of any minor problems as at this stage the owner still has faith in the supplier.
I have to hold my hand up to this as much as anyone, and it is a natural tendency that will not go away of its own accord. Unfortunately it is also the first step on the road to hell, paved with good intentions as it is.
The next stage is usually a spreading fever. Few of us need much excuse to spend money on our beloved vehicles, and one eulogistic posting is often all it needs to trigger an avalanche of purchases. Of course, vendors love this!
However, IMO this behaviour is often not good for vendors in the longer term. For starters, the worshipful comments can create an unrealistically high level of expectation as regards the quality of the product, which already set things up for a fall. Secondly, there is a huge incentive for vendors to cover up or deny any problems (often even to themselves - the implications of facing up to any difficulties being too much to bear).
Of course, this reduces the chances of arriving at a proper solution for any problems which do arise. Then as time passes, and some of the early customers start to lose patience, the pressure for a backlash starts to build.
I believe that both vendors and owners have the power and responsibility to avoid this in future. Initially, it would be better if owners reserved judgement regarding new products, until they had spent enough time to make properly informed comments. There is nothing wrong with giving an initial impression, but hyperbolic statements and pseudo-technical BS aren't going to help the situation.
In turn, everyone should realise that problems and challenges are part and parcel of all engineering. If we create an atmosphere in which vendors feel free to admit to problems without fearing that they will be next burnt at the stake, it will be better for everyone. We can start by giving vendors who own up their mistakes the respect they deserve.
Besides, vendors should give up hope that we will believe them if they say "we have sold X amount of these and never had one single problem". Unless the item in question is a box of matches, I don't believe you.
I agree that there is a tendency to put new products and vendors up on a pedestal, and then knock them off again. After a year or two around here, it's now pretty clear to me how and why this happens.
People get excited because they have bought something new (be it an ECU upgrade, suspension kit or Scooby-Doo stuffed animal) and post very complimentary things when they are still in the "honeymoon" period of ownership. Often these comments aren't very deep technically, and there is also a tendency to omit details of any minor problems as at this stage the owner still has faith in the supplier.
I have to hold my hand up to this as much as anyone, and it is a natural tendency that will not go away of its own accord. Unfortunately it is also the first step on the road to hell, paved with good intentions as it is.
The next stage is usually a spreading fever. Few of us need much excuse to spend money on our beloved vehicles, and one eulogistic posting is often all it needs to trigger an avalanche of purchases. Of course, vendors love this!
However, IMO this behaviour is often not good for vendors in the longer term. For starters, the worshipful comments can create an unrealistically high level of expectation as regards the quality of the product, which already set things up for a fall. Secondly, there is a huge incentive for vendors to cover up or deny any problems (often even to themselves - the implications of facing up to any difficulties being too much to bear).
Of course, this reduces the chances of arriving at a proper solution for any problems which do arise. Then as time passes, and some of the early customers start to lose patience, the pressure for a backlash starts to build.
I believe that both vendors and owners have the power and responsibility to avoid this in future. Initially, it would be better if owners reserved judgement regarding new products, until they had spent enough time to make properly informed comments. There is nothing wrong with giving an initial impression, but hyperbolic statements and pseudo-technical BS aren't going to help the situation.
In turn, everyone should realise that problems and challenges are part and parcel of all engineering. If we create an atmosphere in which vendors feel free to admit to problems without fearing that they will be next burnt at the stake, it will be better for everyone. We can start by giving vendors who own up their mistakes the respect they deserve.
Besides, vendors should give up hope that we will believe them if they say "we have sold X amount of these and never had one single problem". Unless the item in question is a box of matches, I don't believe you.
25 February 2000, 08:26 PM
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Agree with Mike, but who defines the boundaries of what should be said about suppliers and what shouldn't and how are you going to know if you over step the mark till you actually do so???
<B><I>If we create an atmosphere in which vendors feel free to admit to problems without fearing that they will be next burnt at the stake, it will be better for everyone.</I></B>
Won't be better for the supplier though...I don't know anyone that would admit to their product suffering from "teething problems"
And any "<B><I>problems and challenges [that] are part and parcel of all engineering</I></B>" should really be ironed out before any product comes onto the market or do tuning companies use buyers as their own testing facility.....
what a right can of worms eh......but at least someone understands the problems facing vendors on the BBS
laters
fris
<B><I>If we create an atmosphere in which vendors feel free to admit to problems without fearing that they will be next burnt at the stake, it will be better for everyone.</I></B>
Won't be better for the supplier though...I don't know anyone that would admit to their product suffering from "teething problems"
And any "<B><I>problems and challenges [that] are part and parcel of all engineering</I></B>" should really be ironed out before any product comes onto the market or do tuning companies use buyers as their own testing facility.....
what a right can of worms eh......but at least someone understands the problems facing vendors on the BBS
laters
fris
25 February 2000, 09:12 PM
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I wholeheartedly agree with what Mike says here - I also agreed with what Greg was alluding to in the Possumlink thread, it was just in the wrong place.
There are two problems here.
1) Internet/BBS activity is like accelerated Chinese Whispers - so issues spiral out of control very quickly like those automated dealing systems creating huge swings in the Footsie 100. In the good old days it took so long to get a discussion amongst ten people that everyone had calmed down before you got to the end of the line.
This is both positive in that important news is shared quickly, but as Mike right says, caution could usefully be applied, and I am as guilty as anyone.
2) Because of the nature of this, sensitivities can be created very quickly - for example the 150+post thread about simple question relating to PE. However, moderation again is useful.
The simple rule is keep it on the thread topic - all other rules or ideas of censorship are too complicated or unworkable.
Just keep it too the thread subject and if you want to say something else then set up a new post - it's easy enough.
Rannoch
There are two problems here.
1) Internet/BBS activity is like accelerated Chinese Whispers - so issues spiral out of control very quickly like those automated dealing systems creating huge swings in the Footsie 100. In the good old days it took so long to get a discussion amongst ten people that everyone had calmed down before you got to the end of the line.
This is both positive in that important news is shared quickly, but as Mike right says, caution could usefully be applied, and I am as guilty as anyone.
2) Because of the nature of this, sensitivities can be created very quickly - for example the 150+post thread about simple question relating to PE. However, moderation again is useful.
The simple rule is keep it on the thread topic - all other rules or ideas of censorship are too complicated or unworkable.
Just keep it too the thread subject and if you want to say something else then set up a new post - it's easy enough.
Rannoch
25 February 2000, 10:57 PM
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Hi there,
I agree completely...well said.
I also understand where Greg is coming from and partially agree too.
I was/am tempted to offer tuning parts for Scoobs.... nothing like the existing companies. But to offer more specialist items. I have spent quite a while and expense in researching, testing, identifying what I think are valuable mods for a scoob.
I am not using this as my sole income, but instead this will be a "hobby" for me.
A few people value my opinion.. a few dont.
The kit will be top notch... I will put it to anyone to find better quality... tig welded...powder coated.. plated.... HPC'ed.... stainless or aluminium machined parts.
I personally test everything first. I will hopefully have a few other people testing for me too. (It's these people who are pushing me to do this idea)
I have a whole list of items. I wont be mapping cars.. I will leave that to Bob and the others.
The products will range from simple bolt on parts... to major engine parts.
Some are performance parts, some are for reliability... some are for re-assurance (and to rectify a few Subaru problems)
I am not offering anything at present to the public, but like I said above, a few friends are/will be testing my kit. I'm not in a rush to make money or deliver products, if someone beats me then fine. But I know mine will be tested/proved and be the best.
Anyways... I'm waffling.. and perhaps I shouldnt have posted this info here (perhaps I shouldnt have posted it at all)
J.
ps - Out of the frying pan.. into the fire ?
I agree completely...well said.
I also understand where Greg is coming from and partially agree too.
I was/am tempted to offer tuning parts for Scoobs.... nothing like the existing companies. But to offer more specialist items. I have spent quite a while and expense in researching, testing, identifying what I think are valuable mods for a scoob.
I am not using this as my sole income, but instead this will be a "hobby" for me.
A few people value my opinion.. a few dont.
The kit will be top notch... I will put it to anyone to find better quality... tig welded...powder coated.. plated.... HPC'ed.... stainless or aluminium machined parts.
I personally test everything first. I will hopefully have a few other people testing for me too. (It's these people who are pushing me to do this idea)
I have a whole list of items. I wont be mapping cars.. I will leave that to Bob and the others.
The products will range from simple bolt on parts... to major engine parts.
Some are performance parts, some are for reliability... some are for re-assurance (and to rectify a few Subaru problems)
I am not offering anything at present to the public, but like I said above, a few friends are/will be testing my kit. I'm not in a rush to make money or deliver products, if someone beats me then fine. But I know mine will be tested/proved and be the best.
Anyways... I'm waffling.. and perhaps I shouldnt have posted this info here (perhaps I shouldnt have posted it at all)
J.
ps - Out of the frying pan.. into the fire ?
26 February 2000, 02:36 AM
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1. I am a Scooby Sport fan, his kit has never let me down. However in recent months I have allowed myself to comment on his supply difficulties in hopefully a sympathetic light. I have been consistent and maybe a little biased in Scooby Sports favour as Peter Croney is such a genuine guy!
2. Scooby Mania stepped in at a very difficult time and pointed me in the direction of Mark Shead of MADevelopments, for my engine rebuild. Mark has given me no cause to doubt his capabilities. However I have made his task much harder as via the BBS I have had access to free "impreza engine/Cosworth engine gurus! "
Both Mark and Ben/Mike know that I can be cruel as well as kind regarding my car!
3. Power Engineering failed me. In the short term (600 miles) it was brilliant and I told Redline magazine in good faith that it was brilliant! However; I have become boring on this issue and yet it is a serious point.
If you are a niave newcomer and everyone is: "gushing about the latest product" you may be tempted to purchase that product.
If we can not feed back negative aspects of ownership then what is the point of a BBS / IWOC etc?
Be it blown light bulbs, knocking suspension, vibrating brakes or even dare I say it.....completely shagged engines after 600 miles, that are off the road for 6 months and cost 8-10K to fix! ?
I would just like to point out that I waited 2 months before losing patience with Power Engineering, so I am not a total reactionary! I am "just a tad upset!"
2. Scooby Mania stepped in at a very difficult time and pointed me in the direction of Mark Shead of MADevelopments, for my engine rebuild. Mark has given me no cause to doubt his capabilities. However I have made his task much harder as via the BBS I have had access to free "impreza engine/Cosworth engine gurus! "
Both Mark and Ben/Mike know that I can be cruel as well as kind regarding my car!
3. Power Engineering failed me. In the short term (600 miles) it was brilliant and I told Redline magazine in good faith that it was brilliant! However; I have become boring on this issue and yet it is a serious point.
If you are a niave newcomer and everyone is: "gushing about the latest product" you may be tempted to purchase that product.
If we can not feed back negative aspects of ownership then what is the point of a BBS / IWOC etc?
Be it blown light bulbs, knocking suspension, vibrating brakes or even dare I say it.....completely shagged engines after 600 miles, that are off the road for 6 months and cost 8-10K to fix! ?
I would just like to point out that I waited 2 months before losing patience with Power Engineering, so I am not a total reactionary! I am "just a tad upset!"
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26 February 2000, 04:22 AM
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Good to see what could be the resurrection of the BBS. I would also like to promote an idea that was first mentioned by Quattro [Branko] that ALL Subaru tuners/suppliers have a tag or defining symbol to their posts.
This will show the BBS users , some of whom are very new not to be swayed by what they consider to be public opinion.
ALL Subaru tuning/product companies should have a signature statement indicating the company they represent.
Further to this all Hotmail , Yahoo, Excite accounts should not be allowed on the BBS.
This will enforce stricter guidelines and more security.
All in all I feel this can move forward and look forward to posting some info on the BBS although it might be from another counterpart in BPM who is far more technical than myself.
If you have any further queries about our products , please do not hesitate
to email me or we can chat online with
ICQ (45940764)
Greg Nikolettos
BPM Marketing Division
Phone: (617) 3272 8885
Fax: (617) 3218 8880
bpm@bpmsports.com
This will show the BBS users , some of whom are very new not to be swayed by what they consider to be public opinion.
ALL Subaru tuning/product companies should have a signature statement indicating the company they represent.
Further to this all Hotmail , Yahoo, Excite accounts should not be allowed on the BBS.
This will enforce stricter guidelines and more security.
All in all I feel this can move forward and look forward to posting some info on the BBS although it might be from another counterpart in BPM who is far more technical than myself.
If you have any further queries about our products , please do not hesitate
to email me or we can chat online with
ICQ (45940764)
Greg Nikolettos
BPM Marketing Division
Phone: (617) 3272 8885
Fax: (617) 3218 8880
bpm@bpmsports.com
26 February 2000, 07:52 AM
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In order to use the exact term which the initiator of this thread has selected (vendor - thankfully far more used in the United States and similar than in Europe as it does not correctly describe the status of the party defined as such), I may now be considered by the virtual Subaru community as a vendor. Therefore, my comments need to be composed very carefully and they are as follows:
1)The fact which Mike pointed out about the "community making or breaking" a supplier or service provider is a sufficiently sad an unnatural fact in itself. Having researched other similarly minded, but very differently behaving car make enthusiast 'clubs', our one is very special and unique in many ways (conclusions left at discretion and deduction of readers). It suffices to say there is no such 'power' elsewhere to my knowledge.Not to even say it does not exist in other 'personality, vanity and ego driven passions' either. (no negative thoughts here, honest!)
2) The further this (virtual?) community keeps developing in the direction it seems to have adopted, the sooner it will become self-destructive (sorry, self-destroyed!) for a simple reason that we shall run out of stars and sacrificial lambs.
3) What is it that we actually want? Apart from purely theoretical and academic expectations (which no industry in this world will ever be in a position to fulfil)? Do we even know what that is apart from saying how 'it should be' and when reference parameters change with the weather (almost)? I fear we do not, otherwise there would be a much clearer direction in our aims, intentions, actions and, ultimatley, ingredients of this lovely bbs.
4) As the infamous Dr. Skarsten patient(ly) explained to me the other day, he sees my thinking and comments as something that is apparently called "left field" approach (apologies for demonstrating yet another area of my personal ignorance). Well, if that has been the case so far (unintentionally, of course), I did not see much benefit out of it. For the record, I shall avoid as much as I can exposing any views as a "vendor" (supplier if I may, thank you) and the longer I stay involved in a commercial form and shape of trying to be useful for the Impreza community, the more I will refrain myself from discussing topics directly related to my activities of the kind.I have learned my lessons elsewhere and gradueated on the subject of conflicts of interest. I hope this post will not be looked at as such, but simply a personal contribution to a general discussion which, I regret, will have many of us agree in a lot of things and probably will not change much. Not because nobody wants, but because realistically (without virtual) it is not possible unless we all decide to keep our cars standard and concentrate our discontent to the manufacturer or importer.
Unless I really felt fond of the majority of a small number of people I met in person through this bbs, and my affection for the 'toy' we all seem to adore, this would all be pointless.
best regards
q.
[This message has been edited by quattro (edited 26-02-2000).]
[This message has been edited by quattro (edited 26-02-2000).]
1)The fact which Mike pointed out about the "community making or breaking" a supplier or service provider is a sufficiently sad an unnatural fact in itself. Having researched other similarly minded, but very differently behaving car make enthusiast 'clubs', our one is very special and unique in many ways (conclusions left at discretion and deduction of readers). It suffices to say there is no such 'power' elsewhere to my knowledge.Not to even say it does not exist in other 'personality, vanity and ego driven passions' either. (no negative thoughts here, honest!)
2) The further this (virtual?) community keeps developing in the direction it seems to have adopted, the sooner it will become self-destructive (sorry, self-destroyed!) for a simple reason that we shall run out of stars and sacrificial lambs.
3) What is it that we actually want? Apart from purely theoretical and academic expectations (which no industry in this world will ever be in a position to fulfil)? Do we even know what that is apart from saying how 'it should be' and when reference parameters change with the weather (almost)? I fear we do not, otherwise there would be a much clearer direction in our aims, intentions, actions and, ultimatley, ingredients of this lovely bbs.
4) As the infamous Dr. Skarsten patient(ly) explained to me the other day, he sees my thinking and comments as something that is apparently called "left field" approach (apologies for demonstrating yet another area of my personal ignorance). Well, if that has been the case so far (unintentionally, of course), I did not see much benefit out of it. For the record, I shall avoid as much as I can exposing any views as a "vendor" (supplier if I may, thank you) and the longer I stay involved in a commercial form and shape of trying to be useful for the Impreza community, the more I will refrain myself from discussing topics directly related to my activities of the kind.I have learned my lessons elsewhere and gradueated on the subject of conflicts of interest. I hope this post will not be looked at as such, but simply a personal contribution to a general discussion which, I regret, will have many of us agree in a lot of things and probably will not change much. Not because nobody wants, but because realistically (without virtual) it is not possible unless we all decide to keep our cars standard and concentrate our discontent to the manufacturer or importer.
Unless I really felt fond of the majority of a small number of people I met in person through this bbs, and my affection for the 'toy' we all seem to adore, this would all be pointless.
best regards
q.
[This message has been edited by quattro (edited 26-02-2000).]
[This message has been edited by quattro (edited 26-02-2000).]
26 February 2000, 09:07 AM
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Don't forget what life teaches us.
A customer who is happy will share his experience with between 2 and 4 people on average.
A customer who is unhappy
will share his experience, vociferously, with ELEVEN people on average.
And all this at the speed of 'e'.
It's not surprising 'vendors' have a nervous time!
Rannoch (an alias with a HOTMAIL account - oooo quiver, about to be cast out from the community
)
A customer who is happy
will share his experience with between 2 and 4 people on average.A customer who is unhappy
will share his experience, vociferously, with ELEVEN people on average.And all this at the speed of 'e'.
It's not surprising 'vendors' have a nervous time!
Rannoch (an alias with a HOTMAIL account - oooo quiver, about to be cast out from the community
)
26 February 2000, 10:46 PM
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many succint and relevant points here...
I think that what Greg and other would-be vendors need to be aware of is the nature of the beast...the scooby buying person that is...
by nature a demanding and pernickity type and very discerning about all things mechanical/technical...otherwise he/she would just go out and buy a bmw no?....
don't be surprised then, if when service/quality is in any way lacking, that these vicious individuals bite back with a vengeance.
seems this BBS is populated with some very oppinionated individuals (nothing wrong with that!) and it comes as no surprise that someone who was once 'flavour of the month' sudenly becomes the butt of everyone's grudges when things start to go wrong.
me? - I'm as pompous,oppinionated and unruly as the rest of them (a chip on each shoulder in fact) - but I don't let it bug me if people start to attack/disagree... the message to Greg and others has to be to just chill and hang in there - if the products are ok - then they will speak for themselves in time.
will shut up now as I sense the effects of cheap alcohol mixing with the prose - don't want to become unintelligble like Anders !
are there any technical threads left to barge in on?
Paul W
I think that what Greg and other would-be vendors need to be aware of is the nature of the beast...the scooby buying person that is...
by nature a demanding and pernickity type and very discerning about all things mechanical/technical...otherwise he/she would just go out and buy a bmw no?....
don't be surprised then, if when service/quality is in any way lacking, that these vicious individuals bite back with a vengeance.
seems this BBS is populated with some very oppinionated individuals (nothing wrong with that!) and it comes as no surprise that someone who was once 'flavour of the month' sudenly becomes the butt of everyone's grudges when things start to go wrong.
me? - I'm as pompous,oppinionated and unruly as the rest of them (a chip on each shoulder in fact) - but I don't let it bug me if people start to attack/disagree... the message to Greg and others has to be to just chill and hang in there - if the products are ok - then they will speak for themselves in time.
will shut up now as I sense the effects of cheap alcohol mixing with the prose - don't want to become unintelligble like Anders !
are there any technical threads left to barge in on?
Paul W
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