alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Moderator: Please don't move this immediately. I've tried it in the "Suspension" forum, and only had 11 views in 5 hours with no replies. Thanx.
OK: I'm wanting my '98 UK turbo geometry done. I've had it offered at a local alignment centre, with laser equipment, for £40. They offered to set it up as the handbook, or my choice of settings. I checked the SIDC FAQ, and got the settings from there, where I also learned that the rear is not adjustable for camber( true?).
Then I rang TSL, who are my nearest "specialist".They quote £95!
Now obviously, I want to save money and fuel if I can, but I want the job done properly. So I ask some questions. When I mention that the rears are not adjustable, I get laughed at, and told not to believe everything I read on Scoobynet/SIDC.
When I mention the settings from SIDC FAQ, I get laughed at again, and when I point out that those are from the SIDC FAQ, I'm told that "they" don't prepare rally cars.
Finally, I mention "Prodrive settings", and am told that they don't exist!!!
Now I'm well confused. Can there be more than one "best" setting? If not, who's settings should I use? Or is the whole thing just hype???
HELP!! My car needs new tyres, and I want the geometry checked b4 /at the same time as they go on if possible.
Alcazar

scoobymoo

Prodrive setting do exist I had my MY99 turbo set to them through my local dealer SGT last month, wasn't cheap (110 quid) but I did not want to have to travel far and take a day off work to get it done cheaper. Best thing I have had done to the car, has transformed the handling, understeer has been eradicated and the turn in is amazing, takes a few days to get used to as I found myself oversteering on slower corners for the first few days (not skidding just using slightly too much lock). On faster corners the car feels much more stable and is not trying to pull the steering wheel out of my hands the way it used to. It also feels much more stable when braking, I ummed and awed for a while before I got it done but all I can say now is believe the hype. : - )

care3

itll cost about £40 to check it,then they charge more to adjust it
tsl will charge you 95 cos they will change it to there own settings which ive heard are very good
had mine done at cheam recently to prodrive settings,best money ive spent on the car
i thought i had a prob with the front passenger,low and behold it was well off

RB5320

Blimey. Where to start? Well, I took my car to Powerstation in December and had the geometry set up aswell as the bumpsteer mod. Cost was £125 + VAT. The results are pretty good - the car drives much straighter, without wandering about. More importantly it is much more stable under heavy braking. So IMO well worth the money. The geometry settings on my car were actually very good to start with, but Powerstation have their own opinions of what the alignment/camber/castor,etc should be set to. No doubt TSL and others use a slightly different setup, to achieve similar results.
If you want the job done properly take it to one of the specialists. I personally would not use any of the high street type places, even if you tell them what settings to use.
As for the rears not being adjustable, my understanding is that it is not a matter of adjustment, but is a fairly straightforward modification (ie different bolts!). I could be wrong here though.
Get it done properly - it is worth it, but dont expect a miracle cure. Presumably, if your car is badly set up to start with you will notice a real improvement. If, like mine, it is already pretty good, you will notice an improvement, but not a massive one.

I hope this helps.

Steve

323GTR

Had my car done at a 'high street place' Buckley tyres in Buckley near Chester. Got all 4 wheels laser alinged plus the camber adjusted as my car has Cusco top mounts. Best £50 I have ever spent on the handling, the car is transformed. I gave them the settings I wanted and they went away and did it. They have the same computerised laser alignment rig as the so called pro's use, and I would have no problem recommending them. Everywhere else I tried couldn't fit the car in for at least 2 weeks.

Andy Hall

I had the bump steer removal and castor brackets fitted at power station and it transformed the handling. PS move the steering rack to minimise or stop camber changes under breaking and cornering. I had the Prodrive settings on my previous WRX and it lessened the understeer and slightly improved handling, but nowhere near as good as the Powerstation setup (IMHO)

Good luck
Andy

scooby_xt_turbo

Does TSL tune the suspension settings only in scoobies or they do other cars too?

Turbo_Steve

I'm afraid I am skeptical about this one:

Scoobies get driven hard.
Cars that get driven hard lose their tracking very quickly.

I found that just getting my tracking reset every couple of months keeps the car handling beautifully. I had the tracking done..then two weeks later I heard about the ProDrive settings, and had them applied. Could I notice any difference? Nope.

Most people I have spoken to aren't really very sure what the bumpsteer mod actually does to the handling of the car.

If you really want to save money...get your tracking set to normal. Drive it for two weeks. Then invest in some fancy tracking. If you can feel the difference, and you think it is worth it, then you can get it set that way everytime. Otherwise you can save yourself a fortune.

Personal Preference.

SCOSaltire

where did u get urs done SiPie?
did u get the suspension altered too - geometry?
i know nothing about difference between prodrive settings and bumpsteer mods... dunno if its the same thing that get altered

Blow

Just had my Legacy done at TSL and they use the old Group N Rally settings, its very good and I also had it done by RC Developments previous to that Fast Road Spec err it was not as good is what I'll say.
Tim

Echo

Am I right in thinking that with geometry set up right, more tyre will be in contact with the road = better tyre wear or, worse tyre wear?

Mike

PS. I'm about to go have mine done too.

chrisp

My RA went to TSL as it felt a bit floaty plus I had put 18s on it. They adjusted the geometry and the result was superb. I was also invited to watch the adjustments and I received a before and after printout. You can get rear camber and thats part of the setup. You average laser alignment exhaust and tyre fitters IMHO are not particularly good and are they going to spend 2.5 hours and road test after they have done it . These tyre places dont understand every car and how they should feel. Also the reason it takes so long (about 2.5 hours) is because making a slight change can affect all the other setting, so its adjusting and rechecking which takes the time and skill. Any place which does one corner and doesnt go back and check the others aint worth paying for IMHO.

After mine came back it would steer on throttle and turn in was 50 times better (and mine was a huge amount out from standard subaru setting but I went for TSL settings) and all the floatness had disappeared.

Suppose it really depends on what you want .

I dont know anyone who wasnt pleased with the geometry setup TSL do and they do take time to make sure you are happy with the final result.



[Edited by chrisp - 1/3/2003 8:01:59 PM]

Jooles

Interesting to see that someone else has been talked to like they were a fool by TSL. They really p**sed me off a couple of months ago. I had the 'we prepare rally cars' routine aswell. I would never talk to one of my customers they way that I was talked to on that occasion.

Hoppy

What relevance to a road car has rally handling got? Not much, though having said that TSL tend to get good reports on here and I have sufficient confidence in ScoobNet to know that this is no fluke. Good guys, even though I've personally only used them to buy a few bits and no set-up or fitting stuff.

But if you want your car to go well, forget the engine and concentrate on 1) tyres; 2) suspension; 3) brakes. Oh, and YOUR DRIVING will make the biggest difference of all

There is no perfect suspesnion set-up and it's all a matter of compromise. Camber, castor, toe-in/out front and rear, ride-height, damper rates, springs, roll-bars front and rear, anti-lift kits (or is that a more castor kit?) bump-steer? This is real black-art territory and awash with bull-****.

There is not much room for debate on tyres and brakes, but suspension/geometry is a massive subject that even the experts don't fully understand. Mail Simon de Bank if your really want to get into it.

But I would speak to Pete Croney (ScoobySport) who knows a lot more than most and will offer good advice depending on how you use the car. Of course he sells various brands of kit (I'm getting Ledas fitted from him as soon as time allows) but he'll give you unbiased advice. Call him.

By way of comment, I think the bump-steer removal by Power Station is worth having (it didn't make a massive differnece for me, but Subaru tolerances are such that some cars benefit more than others) and Power Station have really sophisticated kit (£30k?) which is nothing like your Quick Fit wheel bracket and torch malarky which is only good for reps' Vectras.

Do a quick ring-around. Make a judgement on what you think suits you best, then get it done. Condsider the downsides, too (tyre wear, skittish rear). You'll need to spend a few quid, but it will certainly be worth it

Richard.

Leslie

The anti bump steer modification is well worth getting done since you can have significant bump steer on a Scoobie. It does depend on the basic car car suspension geometry and can vary considerably. It was fairly marked on my car and I had the full suspension alignment done at Powerstation. The bump steer changed from 42 minutes for full suspension travel to one minute after the mod was done. With the cambers all set up, and it is possible to change the rear suspension camber slightly, and the toe-ins adjusted to Powerstation settings the car was so different I could not believe it. The endemic understeer has gone, the handling on F1 Eagles is outstanding, wet roads feel like dry ones. The steering is a little lighter since one needs less lock for a given corner, and my tyres are lasting longer with absolutely even wear. The car feels perfectly balanced under fast cornering with the slightest trace of power on oversteer, which is totally controllable and great fun! While the job is being done, you can stand and watch and you will be told exactly what is being done and why. Big plus I say.

Needless to say-this is highly recommended.

Les

Harry Potter

Prodrive rally setting was a phrase dreamed up by original SIDC committee members.

A catchy phrase.

It was a set of values that the Impreza mad original members like Adam Curtin and Dick Grimes developed to dial out the natural underteer that is dialed in as a safety measure by our manufacturer.

This is because the majority of new Impreza owners have come up to the marque via front wheel drive hot hatches

The anti bumpy steering from Power staion on Richards Squires car transformed it

The leda on my 22B transformned it to the same degree!

Leda has inherent anti bumpy steering from its design.

In the future I would save a packet, not get rattly/leaky old Leda and just get the anti bumpy steering modification to the steering rack and the SIDC "Prodrive wheel alignment" settings.

This erases the understeer and make heavy braking much more stable

Oh and the rear is "looser" which is fun

So don't waste money on Leda get the alignment and steering rack anti bump job

Echo

I'm newish here, so please forgive the questions: What are the contact details for TSL and Powerstation?

:-)

Mike

Fatman

TSL Motorsport
Power Engineering

johnfelstead

No It's not hype. Standard setup is a good safe setup for mr average joe public, that is, it is inherantly understeer biased.

If you use a specialist like Powerstation, TSL, Prosport or whoever, you can either take their advice on setup based on what you are using the car for, or you can choose your own.

A specialist will be able to tell you what best suits your car based on how you respond to some simple usage questions. A setup used for myself (i do a lot of fast track driving and also use the car to comute) will not be the best for someone wanting purely road driving or purely track. It's always about compromise.

Front camber is adjustable on the Impreza as standard, rear is not. To adjust the rear camber you need to install some camber bolts, these allow you to dial in some negative camber. A set of rear camber bolts will set you back £50 after VAT.

The bumpsteer mod is very simple, but very efective. All you are doing is optimising the geometry of the steering arms so they follow the same arc as the suspension lower link. If you do this under braking the wheels will not toe out under dive. The biggest gain is actually on uneven roads where one wheel is droping independantly of the other. As standard when your wheel drops into a road depresion the diferent arcs in the steering arm and lower suspension link cause the wheel to steer away from straight ahead, hence the name bump steer. The same aplies in compresion forces. With the bumpsteer mod installed, on uneven roads the car stays more stable, an added bonus is under heavy braking it does too.

The front and rear toe is adjustable on the Impreza as standard.

My own settings are

front camber 1 degree 53 minutes negative
rear camber 1 degree 52 minutes negative
front toe 0 degrees 10 minutes combined toe in (5 mins per side)
rear toe 0 degrees 2 minutes combined toe in (1 min per side)
thrust 0 degrees 0 minutes
front caster 3 degrees 35 minutes (anti lift kit installed)

With these settings the car is drivable on the throttle, doesnt suffer from understeer, is usable daily yet very good on a track. It does tend to wear the front inside of the tyres slightly quicker than ideal for a pure road only car. I would aim at between 1 and 1 degree 30 minutes front camber for a road only setup, matching the rear.

The areas you should concentrate on with the Impreza is not the engine initially. It's making the car handle and brake eficiently, as standard its a bit dumbed down and dull. Get the suspension setup properly, it's worth the extra expense. Then get some quality tyres, i for the life of me will never understand people running these cars on low quality tyres, it makes such a huge diference and the costs arent that much if you balance that against all the other expenses to run these things. Then if you do some fast driving sort the brakes.

Driver training always helps in a big way, but you need a car that handles properly to make the most of your skills.

Suspension upgrades in relation to strut changes are again down to aplication. You may not ever need to replace whats there to achieve your goals, if your like me, you have to because the standard stuff, even STi RA spec just cant handle the temperatures i can generate in the damper oil. Most drivers wont have this problem. Uprated struts can improve the whole flat running of the chassis too.

Avoid dropping the ride height much because it screws up all the geometries under bump, if you want to slam it to the max expect a **** handling car. It may feel fast but it wont be. Spring rates affect the cars balance too, dont be tempted to go for mega hard settings as that will make the car slower in the real world. It's a big subject which is why there are some very large books on the shelves. If you talk to a specialist they should be able to advise you on the best way forward to provide you with what you are looking for.

It's not hype, if anyone says it is they dont know the subject.

johnfelstead

http://www.powerstation.org.uk

This is a picture off powerstations website of me driving richard squires 22B at Donington Park after the Geometry setup and bumpsteer mod. That car was stunning in its handling. You dont plant a 22B nearer to the apex than that. It was a superbly setup car.




[Edited by johnfelstead - 1/5/2003 12:46:56 AM]

ed_the_duck

interesting thread......i was thinking of bumpsteer, anti-lift kit, p/flex r/bar bushes and a geom set-up (my00 uk) but wondered what to do with the standard suspension, someone suggested eibachs on standard dampers......is that wise?
and how on earth can you stop the abs cuttin in when it hits a pea in the road!

Leslie

Powerstation
Athelney Way
Battledown Ind Estate
Cheltenham

01242 238400

Hope this helps

Les

Leslie

Jonfelstead has it right on the nail, and if you know Donington, what he says about that is also dead right

Les

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Absolutely loads of replies here, and the problem is becoming clearer.Thanks for all responses- yes it's nice to know I'm not the only one treated like that at TSL!:
JohnFelstead: particular thanks for your long reply. If I need new tyres, would I get them b4 the geometry mods, or doesn't it matter?
I'm off to give PS a ring tomorrow and talk to them.
What else besides geometry/bumpsteer would people advise for a fast road car. I don't do trackdays.
Anti-lift? New bushes? New droplinks?
Cheers guys:
Alcazar

rsquire

MMMmmm

It'd be nice of people asked to use pics of me motor..

Not you john....

just the other stick it on ya website people

and if I had a penny for everytime SDB driving my car has downloaded from Kazaa and the Hong Kong BMW site then I'd be a very rich man..


Oooh Oko Ohh Oko


Now I understand what that lady was about

IWatkins

Rich,

I asked Jamie's permission to use the photograph on the Powerstation website as she took the photo and obviously owns the copyright.

So stop moaning

Cheers

Ian

rsquire

Yes but she didn't take the pic of my car up on their ramps on their website so



Now **** off

Said in a nice gentile manner

rsquire

ala...........

chrisp

From my printout :

front camber 1 degree 22 minutes negative
rear camber 1 degree 13 minutes negative


Mines seems to have negative camber and I dont remeber fitting any of these specials bolts

IWatkins

Ah yes, Rich, that photo, I see your point.

Now, that is nowt to do with me as it was added when the new webmaster took over, honest gov.

If you have issues, drop Powerstation an email, I'm sure they will understand if you want it removed.

Yer jessie.....

Cheers

Ian