Redkop

Quote:

I dont think i was a danger to my self my passengers or any body else

dont remember any of my passengers saying i endangered them either

Gossy - errrr 'driving wildly' was the term he used <snigger> <snigger> Sorry about having to laugh when he said that to you I certainly didn't feel endangered and many thanks for the ride.

Craig & Ian ... felt really sorry for you both after all the time, money and effort you put in to the car to get it ready for yesterday

[Edited by Redkop - 12/1/2002 7:25:58 AM]

CraigH

Would just like to apologise to those who were at Bedford and didn't get a ride in the Westie with us. Matt, POC especially.

Am VERY VERY disappointed at the way things turned out today - there appeared to be absolutely ZERO consistency in anything they did.

We failed noise testing today. Static test was 103db (had to rev to nearly 8k )
Did a drive by - failed the 1st one - 87.9db - limit was 87.5

Covered up most of the air scoop and all vents.

Did another run - passes - was 4db under.

Went out. Failed. Was over. WTF!!!!! It was almost silent [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

You could hardly hear the car from the pits when some Scoobs were screaming away. Yet it failed. And Westfields own car (and a Radical SR£ race car and Fireblade) passed with flying colours

We weren't the only ones though [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

And then theres the people who were black flagged for "dangerous driving" - Oh peeeerrrrrrleeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaase!!!!!!!!!

So drifting or getting the back out is dangerous driving?

Was absolutely ridiculous.

So, Ian and I (plus friends) worked our ***** off to make sure the car was ready for today. We had suspension sorted by a race outfit at huge expense - £1k to make sure today would be good. We got Westfields XTR2 works and test driver down to teach and instruct us - and we worked till 1am sat morning to make sure the car was ready.

Yet we failed noise testing that the std car passsed with ease :rolleyes (car still has cat and 2 silencers)

As Ian said in another post - we stopped half a mile up the road to see if we could hear anything after "apparently" the local village (3 miles away) had complained of noise.

Surprisingly we couldn't hear a thing [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

So - who pays the £165 for the day, £60 for 2 drivers and £200 for the Westie driver to attend? For 1 1/2 laps

SIDC?
or Bedford?

I want our money back for this.

Has been an absolute farce and the inconsistencies on the day were incredible.

Not particularly happy surprisingly.

dingy

Sorry about your misfortune

In my opinion the organisers of the day should pay.....They organised the event which makes them liable, the SIDC then need to sort with Bedford.

STATIC is usually 3500 rpm and drive by is 3 metres..


8k FFS - thats a joke.

davyboy

Who got black flagged for dodgy driving?

I feel sorry for you guys, that sucked donkeys ****!

Haven't these yokels got anything do to on a Saturday than sit in their gardens with an ear trumpet listening for noise!

I have some great **** they can look at!

Hoppy

I feel for you guys and I guess we all wanted to see your Stealth Bomber in action. We should resist stupid noise regs, but believe me they are inevitable. You've just got to make the thing quieter. Sorry

The SIDC could offer a very valuable service in this area, as could exhaust manufacturers.

Hope to see you next time

Richard.

ian_sadler

Yep like I posted on the other thead I think you kept you cool much better than I would have.

Would have loved to have seen you guys giving it some on the track.

Ian

gossythevaleter

ERR i got flagged NOT for DANGEROUS DRIVING to take it steady By an over cautious Marshall

After this and me being very PI$$ed as this was supposed to be a driver development day ( IMHO this means to me to be able to develop your skills in a safe enviroment) After speaking to the guy that gave the briefing and telling him how i felt strangly enough i did not see any more flags of this nature

I dont think i was a danger to my self my passengers or any body else

However if any body feels that i did in some way endangour them well i am sorry but if i remember correctly any body close to me front or rear i slowed down to either give themspace in front or to overtake

dont remember any of my passengers saying i endangered them either

OH well

Craig sorry about your problems cant believe they failed you as i thought mycar was louder than yours

Better Luck next time

Trout...

Craig,

sorry to hear about your misfortune...

...when I failed a noise test at Castle Combe the organisers gave me a full refund.

Trout

CraigH

Hoppy,

That's the problem. How do we make it quieter? It's a bog standard engine - it's runs a massive silencer and cat and another VERY restrictive smaller silencer to keep the noise down. It passed SVA EASILY -the exhaust is v v quiet compared to say, a decat Scoob.

It was 100% (after the "mods" ) one of the quietest cars out there - barely audible from the pits - yet it was still black flagged

I think it was to do with pitch. It's higher than a Scoob so maybe that did it - same as the RX7s perhaps. So the actual noise volume of the car was lower but the pitch was higher?

We purposefully booked Bedford as our 1st proper day to try the car out - nothing to worry about like most circuits, ie armco when we could've paid for 2 (or 3 considering the distance) Donington days

Still don't get how Westfields own XTR2 had no problems, neither did the Radical neither did the Fireblade

I don't blame SIDC for this - it's Bedford and I hope SIDC will take some actions to get Bedford to reimburse us.

As another point - someone said the track was changed from the layout Bedford advertised due to maintenance - was this the case 'cos obviously I didn't get out to drive...

Fizz

iTrader: (1)

two things.. If I remember from my days rally then noise test should be conducted to 5 rpm or 2/3 of the highest rpm that should be acheived is. if your v8 only revs to 5 then quite a bit lower. The DID NOT conduct the test properly if they asked you to rev to 8000rpm.. A letter to sidc and Bedford might be in order quoting the RACMSA blue book (I haven't got one but I'm sure somebody here has.. There might be further action you could take due to the incorrect noise test procedures used.

2. Noise is a bit difficult to judge. I have heard cars as quiet as a mouse but their 'noise' levels are high. it's scientific but it works somehow.. I have known standard family saloons fail noise tests yet westies skylines etc.. pass no problem!!

Hope it helps as it might prompt somebody to reply who has all the know how on this stuff!!

Mark Kwiatkowski

Section E12.17 in the blue book is where you will find the regulations on silencing & sound control.

Section E12.16 deals with exhausts.

Had a great time spectating yesterday, shame that some of you couldn't take part (especially the guys with the Westfield, i really wanted to see that in action!) and a quick thanks to the chap (sorry forgot your name!) who took me out in his green Prodrive spec impreza.

The whole noise issue was all rather silly IMO

Hoppy

Craig, not too many bright ideas for you, I'm afraid. All I can do is relate some recent karting experiences which included about ten yards of exhaust wrap and running very rich for the static test. Then on the drive-by with the over-head mike, move to the right-hand side of the track and lean your elbow and arm over the motor and thrashing chain.

This might seem irrelevant but it's not just exhausts that make the noise. On a kart, there's a hell of a racket coming from the resonating cooling fins and the exposed chain drive. The point here being that maybe the Westfield's body is not helping here and may be amplifying noise. Or as you say, maybe changing the pitch which reads higher on the mike. (Although I thought the mike was supposed to be tuned to the 'human ear'?)

I can't find a Blue Book to hand but I'm not certain that it's 100% relevant here. A good starting point for sure but I reckon a local council can apply whatever limits they feel like. The whole thing is crazy but on the karting front I know some very good brains who have tried and tried to get some common sense and balance into the debate, all to no avail. Bottom line is that noise limits are politically correct and it's hopeless arguing against that utterly stupid mentality. Unless there are huge amounts of money involved, of course (I used to live under the Heathrow flight path and Concorde would shake the windows ).

Final thought - this is all about noise polution in residential areas, isn't it? Then why not measure the noise there? You'll then find that the most significant factor is the wind direction and in all probability next door's dog farting will be louder.

Best regards,

Richard.

Pavlo

Agree with hoppy's comments, being a karter for overn 10 years new. More silicone, more wrap, more end bells, ooh er!

Wrapping the downpipe probably helps quite a lot too.

Beads of silicone along exhaust springs, but you're only likely to get those on a bike engined car or GrpN rally exhaust

Paul

johnfelstead

I was gutted for you Ian and Craig, i posted my thoughts on the day in the other bedford thread.

I think you will find that drive by noise tests show up completely diferent charicteristics to static tests. Most cars that pass static tests yet fail drive by tests have induction noise issues rather than exhaust noise. The best way to tackle this is to have a carbon fibre airbox assembly made and a remote air filter, again installed inside an enclosure that is then fed cold air from a duct.

RX7's (rotarie mazda) engines suffer very badly in this respect too, one of my friends used to race a rotary westie (he won the westfield championship in this and was then banned for being to fast ) The only way he got this through on track noise tests was to do what i mention above. He also had it so he could move the inlet duct to the oposite side of the car from the on track mike.

Installing a turbo will also remove the induction noise as well as exhaust noise to a large extent, as long as you enclose the air filter assembly.

The way the noise limits were changed on the day was way out of order, i hope you get a refund. You will still be down on the other costs and the time and effort, but dont let this dent your enthusiasm for what is a fantastic car and a great achievement in its building.

igratton

Pavlo, Hoppy.

Exhaust wrap would be a good idea. Shame the car already has the 4-2-1 manifold wrapped

Next Idea please.

Ian.

johnfelstead

i think i gave you a rather important avenue to investigate Ian.

CraigH

LOL

John put it in caps

We've thought about an airbox. Still don't understand how Westfields own got thru easily

So we basically have to compromise the car for 1!!!! Circuit in the UK - when it may be a case of it being their equipment at fault???

Think the answer is we won't be going back to Bedford.

Nigh on 6 hours there and back not knowing whether you'll get on -perhaps dependant on the weather

Crazy.

daved6

Craig, sorry to hear about your day, I agree with John I think induction noise is your problem, when I took my SR3 to Bedford it passed the static test no problem but failed the drive by test until I filled the top of the induction box prior to the filter with foam which cured it, flat out passed the noise meter with no problems

CraigH

Yeah - we tried to cure it - we taped over the air scoop -all but a few cm of it and covered all air vents on the engine cover.

It was very hard to hear when flat out from the pits (after the hairpin "driving the other way" and from behind the pits it was unaudible.......

Theres a conspiracy I reckon

daved6

yeah, very strange that the Radical and the other westie were okay and you weren't ??????????

hope you haven't been upsetting anyone

mutant_matt

Dave,

Craig is always upsetting EVERYBODY

Matt

CraigH

Matt

Fvck off

For that comment, next trackday we're at, you don't get a ride.

Just to upset you

Pavlo

Graig/Ian,

Things I have found work well to reduce noise on a racing kart (which is actually fecking loud).

Wrap the exhaust
Wrap the exhaust again
Put silicone on anything that isnt very solid, like a spring, engine fins etc
Point the induction inlet sideways into the vehicle, pointing up was bad because the driveby mike was overhead
Make sure absolutely no exhaust leaks, silicone all slip joints a little, wrap over slip joints.
Putting foam opposite the inlets.

Induction roar plays a big part, any sort of airbox with a sealed volume and 1 or 2 inlets will act as a resonator, just like the exhaust, further gains from lining the volume with foam. Acoustic foam is now available from RS components (rswww.com)

If you point something directly at the ground it can reflect, but unless the mikes are not overhead, this is probably best.

There are all sorts of things that affect the "readings" of the noise opposed our perception. THey are generally measured 'A' weighted, which (without checking) filters certain frequencies out so as to be good for nsance measurements. There are also noises that travel well, and those that don't, so you et farfield and nearfield measurements. I also get the impression that cars were being measured whilst in a pack/group, HELLOOOOOOO!

I think the SIDC could do worse than to get detailed noise reqs for track days, and get assurance from the venues it wont change without warning, including measurement methods. This problem isn't new, and has been battled out by the RACMSA for years, learn from their experience.

Sound meters should also carry a valid calibration certificate, otherwise the measurements are pointless.

Paul

Hoppy

Excellent suggestions from Paul. Ian/Greg, I think you'll be surprised at the noise reductions you can achive without effecting performance.

You should talk to Westfield, and the SIDC should talk to Bedford. We'd all love to see your car doing its stuff

Richard.

mutant_matt

CraigAnd that will differ how from the current state of affairs

Anyway, you know it's true

Matt