Jeff Wiltshire

Tony

I think you might stuggle to lower the weight of your EVO by 1000Kg....

Where you out with Don Palmer ???

Jeff

[Edited by Jeff Wiltshire - 12/1/2002 10:03:53 AM]

Josh L

PS Now I'm up



and



[Edited by Josh L - 12/1/2002 10:47:47 AM]

johnfelstead

It was great to meet everyone yesterday, some old faces and some new.

The noise regs published for the day stated "Static test 101dB (A) at 4,500rpm 0.5m from the exhaust Drive by 87dB (A) at full throttle 20m from the centre line of the vehicle passing at least 60mph and accelerating maximally"

I wasnt worried by this as i had my car tested at the Nurburgring 2 weeks previously, it had measured 97db static (limit is 95db yet they let me run) When i arived at the entrance we were noise tested statically, mine read 99.9db! Now there is no way in hell my car has almost doubled it's noise in 2 weeks! Either the ring has badly calibrated noise meters or Bedford does.

I did the 5 sighting laps we were all given at 60MPH then parked my car to swap the tyres over to my more "worn" SO2's. By the time i had finished that and walked out of the pit garage all hell had broken loose and we had the rediculous situation of everyone having their cars noise tested individually with a drive past a mike test. This took until 11:45am to complete, with many totally pissed off people being told to go home. Sorry i didnt see you there diesel!

I expected my car to fail the drive by test, as it seemed one of the loudest there and was so marginal on the static test. When i realised that we were not even allowed to drive our own cars for the test i was very close to just leaving, no one drives my car but me. Fortunately Rob Mack and PeteC were doing some of the driving so i wasnt so concerened then, but in principle, this was way out of order! If i were Craig and Ian i would have told them to **** off an gone home there and then, these guys worked their asses off to build a fantastic car and they were told they had to let someone, who had no experience of their car, drive it. Sod that!

Rob drove my car and he didnt take it easy, yet it passed the noise test. I was amazed to be honest. The only thing i can think of that would allow mine to get through, yet other, much quieter cars like the Skyline GTR failing, was down to me still having the standard catted downpipe and centre resonator, plus the standard air box, resonator and filter there on my STi5 RA, induction noise can be higher than exhaust noise when read on a drive past test. (i also switched the airconditioning on, this loads up the engine a bit more) For the rest of the day i resigned myself to cruising past the mike at 4000rpm, just so i wouldnt risk a black flag.

Bedford dropped the noise limit by 2db than stated on the entry information, that is well out of order. 3db is double the noise, so its a masive amount to change.

I was gutted for Craig and Ian, i know what it's like to work so hard to get a car like the XTR2 built and to a track on time, it needs huge dedication, but most of all, it needs masive enthusiasm. I hope this cockup at bedford doesnt dent that enthusiasm for what you guys have built, because its fantastic. Let me know when your taking it to another track, i would like to see it driven.

The rest of the day, (well all afternoon, morning was a right off) i had a great time exploring the limits of my RA. I wound the Leda up pretty hard, 17 front, 15 rear (i run 11 front, 9 rear from soft at the ring, as it's very bumpy and undrivable set any harder), set my tyre presures at 44psi front, 42psi rear hot, this gave the car an almost go kart type feel. After a few laps the front tyres were overheating so turn in wasnt as crisp, but that was easily overcome by using the rear to steer instead. TypeRA's are the dogs bollox on track, It's a real shame the P1 didnt get to keep the TypeR transmition, it would have been so much a better car on track (and given proper instructions in the owners manual, on the road too), if you get the chance, go drive one, you wont look at an Impreza in the same way again. As Arron Bird said, it's a MK2 Escort!! LOL

Without doubt, the most fun corner was the righthander before the pit entrance, that was full oposite lock, full power at 80MPH. I span once there when a P1 lost it in front of me, i was in two minds what to do, decided in the end to just keep it nailed and right round we went. Thats the first spin for me in years on track, so just shows how safe bedford is if i was happy to really push the car that far to it's limits. Most of the corners could be taken in a big drift, i enjoyed the fast chicane at the end of the long 1Km back straight in particular, as that was quite challenging to carry high speed through. The hardest corner to get a proper slide on was the righthander onto the pits straight, it was a 4th gear full throttle corner and i found getting the front end tucked in properly then powersliding it quite tricky, i managed a few crackers though, which felt great. I could do with another 100BHP, then it would be much easier to hold such a high speed slide, there just wasnt quite enough to keep that going, but it was great fun.

Driving standards were very good i thought, no problems at all with people moving out of the way. It was great to do some laps behind the Ferrari and Noble, both were driven really well. Some of the Impreza's were damn fast on acceleration too, mine is a standard 280BHP with the RA lower gearing and a few of them were pulling away slightly on the straights, so must have had some proper power, thank god for the twisties.

Gossie, you are a nutter.

So, all in all, a great day, big thanks to the SIDC for putting the day on, it's just such a shame the problems with Bedfords noise regulations ruined it for so many people. If i do Bedford again, then it will have to be with a standard exhaust system on the car. I am a little intrigued about Jonathan Palmer flying in to discuss the noise issue with the local villiage, that seems rather odd to me, and why the 2db drop?

P.S Please tell me you got some decent shots of the last corner before the pits Josh, i havent got a really top quality shot of the RA on full lock at high speed yet.

[Edited by johnfelstead - 12/1/2002 5:16:12 PM]

Fat Boy

Ian S, is that "Quite" a car or quiet, with my Impreza Sport back box . Thanks once again to Mark at Tyres Northampton who found it for me. I think he could have sold it 20 times over yesterday..

John F was very fast and, as ever, beautifully balanced. We had 4 laps together 2 with me in front, holding him up no doubt (no blue flags however ), and 2 with me behind, but not that far behind, eh Matt?- I want an RA now as I spent the day in understeer city, having to lift off or trail brake to try to get the nose pointed into the corners, whereas it seemed all he had to do was steer with his right foot.Very jealous. Obviously totally agree with his comments above about the P1 missing that transmission, and no it wasn't me who spun

More than just Kevan F went past the S4, the only time it went past me was when I was cruising at 3k on an in lap! Kevan F was quick on the straight, but did have a teeny weeny blind spot with regards to blue flags on more than one occasion, still conditions were tricky. Amazingly, despite my new sport back box I was blackflagged after spending 3 laps glued to KevanF's tail.I though that they were going to say don't drive so close and I had my response ready. However, when I came into the pits the good guy marshal (Tony??) said "Sorry you've blown the sound meter again you're off". I said "Please have a look at the exhaust", he walked around the back , I revved it to about 6K, and he came back laughing. He radioed Headquarters and said" There has been some mistake , He's just revved the car and I can't hear anything. Off you go"

And as for Tarquin in the TVR, well we have just been sitting here reviewing his in car video of his 2 360's into turn eight and his 360 out of the pif paf He's quite happy to admit that he didn't have a clue what happened. He was very fast down the straights, it is a 5 litre with some extra bits, but he was actually running around 8-12 seconds a lap slower than we were, according to the videos. It was only his 3rd day on track, however. You are spot on about the brakes however as when he had a look at the end of the day he had no rear brake pads, and I mean none - metal on metal It was a long slow drive back to London as he had no spares. He was running EBC red front and rear - front are fine so something terribly wrong with the rear ones - he's not happy.I don't know much about brakes, but I can't help feeling that EBC are a bit M*x P*w*r. He had a good day and enjoyed meeting you lot, found it much more sociable and well run , allowing for Bedford's issues, than his previous track days.

Gossy , I know what you are saying in that it was wet, but this wasn't water, as my car had a nice covering of white dust mixed in with the mud and general grime after that session - whatever , it looked good from where we were sitting,it has to be said, and all day.I'm not surprised that you were pi55ed off with the black flags as you were safe, if loony, all day, if that makes sense Ian was still laughing about an hour after his ride with you

[Edited by Fat Boy - 12/1/2002 6:01:40 PM]

[Edited by Fat Boy - 1/6/2004 10:32:24 PM]

mutant_matt

Firstly,

Many thanks go to John F, Fat Boy, Grant and Iain L for the passenger rides - it's always nice to get on track as a passenger (if a little frustrating) when you're not on track yourself.

Craig and Ian, what can I say? How a catted, silenced, road legal car that passed SVA 5 weeks ago with zero modifications can fail the noise limits is beyond me!!!! I wonder if the microphones interpret noise differently to the human ear because when Pete C drove the Westie, to my ears, it was a lot quieter than many of the cars which subsequently spent the rest of the day on track [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img] Having spent many months and many hours discussing the project with Craig, visiting the build a few times and even getting my hands dirty once (but only a little ), I was really looking forward to the first outing in anger on track and feel for Craig and Ian, I can only guess at how angry they must be I also don't understand how the various other XTR's have passed the tests previously. Evo have had the XTR and the Radical @ Bedford at least once before for the 2002 ETCOTY and they certainly weren't taking easy then

The trouble for the future is, how do you know if your car is likely to pass or not? There were fully decatted Scoobs passing and there were fully decatted Scoobs failing - what's the difference? (different makes of decat exhaust perhaps?) If a road legal (quiet in comparison) Westie fails, it's quite possible a Scoob with a sports cat like the PPP may fail, randomly at some point in the future - it all seems so uncertain and there's the problem. If you are not sure you'll make it on track, are you willing to take the £175 and upwards gamble? When you add in the petrol costs, insurance, wheels/tyres/brakes and travel, it all adds up. The only answer I can see is that we don't go to Bedford anymore which for many of us is a pain. It's the best track (IMHO) in the South, has great facilities, is extremely safe and is my personal favorite. It's us who will suffer if and when we vote with our feet.... Having said that, from the crap that the SIDC had to deal with just to get the event up and running, coupled with the crap that went on at the track, I can't see SIDC doing anymore track days, and if they do, I can't see it being at Bedford. If this happens, hopefully Bedford will suffer but I very much doubt it - they must make their money from their corporate events and I presume they see us as a small and unimportant sector in the scheme of things. I doubt they will miss our business, which is why I don't think they will make much effort to do anything about the problem.

On another note.....
Gossy It would be interesting to find out what the results of JP's investigation in the village was, and whether or not he could hear the cars from the village....So, who thinks as I do that this probably is a breech of contract? If I had failed because my car was over 85dB but under 87.5, I would think seriously about getting my money back, through legal channels if it came to that!!!!Here here - perhaps IF our business IS important to JP then he MAY think about sorting this out to bring people back - I doubt it but lets hope so!!!!Iain, you failed miserably in the contest with Curtis to see who could spin the most, especially after Curt's finale when he spun the M3 onto the grass in front of the pits, just when I had a grandstand seat as a passenger with John F Josh, please tell me you've got some of John going majorly sideways on the pit entrance corner?
Davyboy,Like I said, Curtis takes the credit for most of those

Lets hope something can be done to allow us back in the future - anybody who contacts Bedford, let us know what is said!!!

Matt

[Edited by mutant_matt - 12/1/2002 10:54:16 PM]

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

I'll comment as how I understand it & not on behalf of the SIDC as I was talking to Julie as much of the discussion was going on...

SIDC is reponsible for collecting the money. They pay BA based on the number of vehicles on track.

As I understand it, SIDC will be indebted to BA for the final amount of people paid for, which should = the people actually allowed on track.

So if you get a refund from SIDC for being not allowed on track 'cos of noise or dodgy whatever, then they will not be paying the money to BA either.

At the end of the day, BA will only be paid for those that actually completed or partook in the whole day (or 1/2 in my case ) without getting asked to leave.

I imagine it will keep the paperwork easier as well...

[Edited by Puff The Magic Wagon! - 12/3/2002 12:05:33 PM]

mutant_matt

Mike, let us know how you get on, I hope for your sake you have more luck than we did, as some of the cars which failed were not noisy by performance car standards

Puff, I thought the cost was a fixed one which the SIDC has to pay up front before the event? If this is the case then PalmerSport would have to refund the SIDC so that the SIDC could refund the individuals?John, good point!!!!The trouble is, the static noise test was probably quite accurate - it's the driveby one which seemed to be inconsistent. Good idea about a meter for the club though. Out of interest, which other circuits do noise testing and does anybody know what the limits are in those cases?

Matt

[Edited by mutant_matt - 12/3/2002 2:00:23 PM]

simonburton

The drive by test was very inconsistant. Don Palmer took my car out first and drove quite close to the meter with the car banging off the rev limiter . Needless to say it failed! I then asked one of the Palmer Sport instructors to take it round; this was quiter but still deemed too high. Lastly Pete took it 'sympathetically' past the meter and once again it failed. The car was fitted with a TSL Firestorm back box, which is loud, but had never failed a test to date. Tyes Northampton swapped it over for a standard Scoobysport back box, and it was still too loud.

Comments from Palmer Sport staff such "you will have to go home now" didn't help to alleviate matters either!

I belive Pete / SIDC did everything they could to ensure a smooth day, but this was hampered by Palmer Sport acting on instruction from the local council.

I was extremely pi$$ed off for not getting to go on track, and equally pi$$ed off for those people who did, albeit for not as long as they should. I for one will not being going back to Bedford which is unfortunate as it is an interseting circuit. Even with a refund for the track time (hopefully), there are still other costs that I will not get back.

Rant over - Simon

[Edited by simonburton - 12/3/2002 4:01:40 PM]

ARRON BIRD

Great thats all cleared up then.however...... I DIDNT EVEN HAVE A CAR!!!!!!
AND ITS COST ME £175!!!!
I cancelled as soon as I knew that I would not have a car.
I paid the SIDC not Palmersport.
I dont want to wait to see what Palmersport have to say about noise....I had to cancel so I want my money back from the SIDC for firks sake.
Dont you think I wanted to take part.
You have my switch card number.

[Edited by ARRON BIRD - 12/4/2002 10:20:33 PM]

Neil Smalley

Davy, Theo

I KNOW that I work from the point of view that prevention is better than cure.

Look, any dispute is between the SIDC, Bedford and those seeking compensation. The last thing this needs is ill informed opinion and stirring by the few idiots making things worse. I fail to see how this is brown nosing or stiffling debate etc. It's just reminding the few trouble makers what the T&C's they signed up to are. I'm not saying you can't debate it, just keep it constructive



[Edited by Neil Smalley - 12/4/2002 10:26:39 PM]

CraigH

Neil,

No offence but if you weren't there?

I'm actually being very reserved in my reply and not rising at all to the inference in some of Mr Palmers comments.

Me and Ian have a 100% legitimate reason to be completey peed off with the day and how it was run. It wasn't just a few people who were unhappy either - thought at lunchtime there was going to be a riot - have never seen so much apparent hostility at a track day.

It's cost us a lot of time and money and I've sent a letter to Mr Palmer staing our grievances as well.

To infer that he was "put out" is an absolute **** take in my opinion.

[Edited by CraigH - 12/4/2002 11:07:07 PM]

Neil Smalley

Craig

No worries.

Negotiation's I know a reasonable amount, just don't rely on me to solve the next Gulf war..



[Edited by Neil Smalley - 12/4/2002 11:55:37 PM]

Zagangaphile

Jonathan,

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

Can someone please explain why dropping the posted and published noise limits on the day(for whatever reason) is not a breach of contract by Bedford and therefore those affected are not entitled to thier money back?

You would have to prove people's intent to deceive, which I believe cannot be proven. As has been stated not many people do not have access to fully calibrated noise testers and so to prove intent one would have to know that your car was over the limit in the first place(and only superman can tell by listening the difference between 85Db and 85.5Db).

E.g

If I bought tickets to say, a Robbie Williams concert and was told on the day the numbers of people who were allowed to be let in had been halved due to say, fire regulations, then I would be entitled to a refund. Why not in this case?




[Edited by Zagangaphile - 12/5/2002 9:44:56 AM]

gossythevaleter

Looks like this has stirred up a bit of a hornets nest as the rs lot are talking about too and it apears that certain people at bedford are having a go at us scoob drivers take a look
http://bbs.rsownersclub.co.uk/showth...threadid=22552

[Edited by gossythevaleter - 12/5/2002 11:53:25 AM]

dba

I will not be returning to Bedford.I think its unacceptable to change the rules,because of wind,supposed "cheats who flout the drive-by,local residents or the owners itinerary,whatever.There were paying customers there who where treated unfairly,and as yet there have been no answers to some legitimate questions from the likes of CraigH and JohnF.

A limit is a limit,and the residents have to live with it.It gets windy and the offenders are supposedly those who are cheating the system.So a huge net is thrown, to catch the few,p1ssing off everyone and seemingly sending the wrong cars home,as well those who may have been guilty.Who can tell? It seems that the decison was made to send as many cars home as was needed to make sure the offenders were included.

Not good customer care in my book.

[Edited by dba - 12/5/2002 12:08:03 PM]

gossythevaleter

Ok just realised some of you guys are regitered with the rs board so have copied the whole thread


Sean Bicknell
RSOC Regular

Registered: Nov 2000
Location: Dudley, West Midlands.
Posts: 333
Bedford Noise Limit
OK, Just had a look on the Bedford Autodrome website and the advertised noise limits are the same as they have always been.

101db Static test, taken at 4,500rpm @ 0.5 meters @ 45 degrees

87.5db drive by taken from 20 metres away

Dingy (or anyone that was there yesterday) can you clarify that this was the case.

If so then that shouldn't be a problem. Those that heard my car at Donnington and I have been told it was seriously loud, only just trips the 87.5 db drive by limit. I have since had a new exhaust made that is quieter.

So no-one should really worry to much if the values I have stated above are indeed correct.

I would virtually guarentee that any T34 car with a mongoose exhaust will have no problems.

Sean..



Marco M
RSOC Advanced Member

Registered: Jun 2001
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 537
Sean

it's very true about the sound regs

this was the post that i put up on the scooby net..lol.

Lucky that you were allowed on ......with thoses stupid sound regs

85 DB ...waht a load of boll0x..my push bike makes more noise than that... WTF......No modded cossie would ever pass than noise reg
and thats a fact !not with a modded exhaust on it defo wont

Sad

Marco

here is the link

http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/thre...D=155166&Page=1

And i have booked up for the one on feb aswell


Marco



Sean Bicknell
RSOC Regular

Registered: Nov 2000
Location: Dudley, West Midlands.
Posts: 333
Just read the Scoobynet post, looks like this could be the start of the end for Bedford

Sean..



TIM_H
RSOC Essex

Registered: May 2001
Location: Launch Control Drives: 4x4 Sapph
Posts: 163
Here's an answer. - a type of bolt in noise reducer - just goes in the end of the pipe, and take it out when you've finished.

Seen these before on some Scoobs and Evo's with the same problem.

http://www.t-v-r-services.co.uk/tvrs_trackday.htm

Seems the TVR boys have the same problem.

Thing is - all circuits have noise limits, so nothing new there.

Can't see how much they are though, but apparently will reduce the noise down to an acceptable level.

This is why certain circuits have made 'noise bunds' ie, a hill made of dirt, to deflect the noise upward from the track.

has anyone thought of these? - or tried them.?


Marco M
RSOC Advanced Member

Registered: Jun 2001
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 537
I think it's the begining of the end ...lol....



FF Dave
RSOC Regular

Registered: Jun 2002
Location: Essex
Posts: 81
I have emailed Palmersport quoting the noise limits from there site asking if they are indeed as advertised and that if this is not the case then what is the actual limit as not to waste all of our time and money...will let you know what the response is.

But yes if it is true then Bedford is going down the pan...


jasonESCCOS
RSOC Advanced Member

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: Romsey
Posts: 715
A TVR at goodwood was 118db at idle he revved it and went of the scale didnt even get to 3k.

LOL he was on about going to bedford as it has no noise limits

Sean Bicknell
RSOC Regular

Registered: Nov 2000
Location: Dudley, West Midlands.
Posts: 333
OK, Just got off the phone to Palmer sport.

The official noise limits are:

Static 99db

Driveby 85.5db

She said these were the same limits that have been in force all year, so in that case your average t34 and mongoose clad cossie should have no problems

I asked her about Saturday and the girl said she wasn't working, but she had heard stories that the scoobies were really "rowdy" don't want to speculate but perhaps they were using the nosie as an excuse.

Sean..



Shaggy2
RSOC Regular

Registered: Oct 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 53

Judging by us not getting on track i think a huge amount of cossies will struggle.

Was an absolute joke on saturday




FF Dave
RSOC Regular

Registered: Jun 2002
Location: Essex
Posts: 81
Nice one Sean!

Thats not quite so bad then...lets just hope they dont change there minds on the day and waste a lot of peoples time and money then.

I for one am really looking forward to this and will be investing a lot of money getting things like my geometry setup in time and wouldnt want to get there and them say sorry someones gardening today and hear a whimper from 2 miles away so you have to go home!



Shaggy2
RSOC Regular

Registered: Oct 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 53
You mean exactly like the did to us on saturday?

Car took 4 days to setup and corner weight - passed 2 noise tests but was still black flagged cos some old biddy probably complained - even though village is 3 miles away.

If they're like that when you lot go, reckon half will get sent home






[Edited by gossythevaleter - 12/5/2002 12:15:14 PM]

gossythevaleter

DOH double post

[Edited by gossythevaleter - 12/5/2002 12:05:13 PM]

gossythevaleter

DOH triple post no wonder it took so long too load

[Edited by gossythevaleter - 12/5/2002 12:06:56 PM]

Jeff Wiltshire

......

[Edited by Jeff Wiltshire - 12/5/2002 12:14:10 PM]

Phil

Guys

The SIDC are currently negoitiating with Palmer Sport

AS I SAID EARLIER NO ONE HAS BEEN TOLD YET THEY WILL NOT GET A REFUND

Shall we save the witch hunt until we hear the result





[Edited by phil_stephens - 12/5/2002 2:59:34 PM]

Neil Arrowsmith

How totally- Why?
John- don't you think its a discussion that as usual will drag on & on & not get anywhere.
Not being self centered, just passing comment.Granted I may of missed alot of the postings because I hav'nt had time to read them all.I am just saying that this was my 3rd Bedford with SIDC and have enjoyed them all.
Neil


[Edited by Neil Arrowsmith - 12/5/2002 4:54:06 PM]

ARRON BIRD

Intersting comments Gregh.
But bo11ox all the same.
I signed in as a second driver to W9 GTR. Should I then have paid a further £25??????
I pointed out then that I had paid in full and that
I had no car to drive.
Pete saw me sign on and knew I didnt have a car as I bored him to tears with my tales of wo He didnt say dont book in Arron.
If I had booked with Palmers direct I would have got a full refund.
Quoted to me today by "Sue" on the phone.
Why did my old mate Andy O`Hara get a refund when he told the SIDC only a few days before that he would not be attending because of the noise issue?
I wont bother posting on this issue any more cos it bores me.
I look forward to my refund...less £25 for a second drivers place in W9 GTR if necesary.
Even tho I got to drive jack **** as his car was also noise banned!





[Edited by ARRON BIRD - 12/5/2002 9:45:21 PM]

simes

Well I attended in my almost standard Elise 111s, and consequently had no bother with the noise.

It was extremely frustrating having to hang around waiting for the noise tests and I feel gutted for those that got turned away particularly Craig and Ian after all their hard work.

I think the thing that frustrated people was the fact that cars that haved attended Bedford previously got turned away, and yet there were still cars there that seemed pretty loud.

I do think Bedford were placed in an awkward situation, whether it was the atmosphere or whatever there seemed to be unusual issues with noise on the day. They reacted as they saw fit at the time to try to keep the day going, and maybe with the benefit of hindsight they could have done things differently, but believe me I saw some very stressed Palmersport staff that day.

I for one will be attending Bedford again if I possibly can. I entirely understand other peoples' reasons for not wanting to, but regard it as second to none for providing a safe environment to push your car to the limits.

Cheers

Simon

PS

Just one last thing that is bugging me, 3db is not double the volume. Double the power yes, but as a rule of thumb it takes a factor 10 times the power to double the volume. 1 db is the "just noticeable difference" so 2 db is not quite the huge difference previous staements have implied.

Editing to add not trying to defend their decision, just maybe it is not as radical as it seems.




[Edited by simes - 12/5/2002 11:26:27 PM]

DavidLewis

I totally agree that, above ALL else, those that were excluded due to noise regs. should have their money refunded in full.

[edited by webmaster at request of Lee (SIDC) to remove offensive material] Offensive material????? I thought I had explained all that????

. If I've read this wrong and people aren't getting refunds, then I retract what I've said.

However, if people are getting their money back, I can still understand that being turned away is a pain in ar$e and I have most sympathy for CraigH because if that was me, I'd be gutted not to be able to test such a beast after all that work.
But, on the other hand, business is business from a BA point of view. How easy would it be to totally lose their licence. JP explained why the level was reduced and maybe the day was victim to a number of extreme circumstances. On their own, it causes no problem, but combined, gives the result as seen. That was just bad luck.

What I don't agree with is that, as a result of a few individuals, JP would consider banning SIDC from Bedford in future and reading between the lines, the reaction to this has been to stick two fingers up and claim that JP needs them more than they need him. Thats arogance!
Overall, this does, as you say John, affect ALL track clubs. Any trackclub is open to these same issues. But if the SIDC is banned then this has everything to do with it being a SIDC event.

One brief observation. I've attended one of BA's corporate days. I do admit to finding it hard to believe a scoob with a simple back-box mod (not including the removable baffle stuff) is louder than either the FPA's or the Clio Sports. (and the exige and evo's were pretty loud too)

Sorry guys, it just that I see both sides of both sides (sitting on the fence)..............sounds like song lyrics I understand what everyone is saying but I just don't think its worth getting the SIDC banned for, thats all.



[Edited by webmaster - 12/8/2002 7:19:57 PM]


Sunday, 22:40 Lee, I assume by the fact that you saw fit to have my original post edited by Simon, that Lisa and you did not accept the innocence of my postings, nor my public apology. It is for this reason that I have retracted it.
As I mentioned in my reply to Simon, I had no prior understanding that Lisa was in fact responsible for refunds (I expected this to be Mellow Yellow's problem, SIDC events co-ordinator), neither did I mention Lisa's name in my posts (Nevetas associated my post with Lisa's name.) Because of this, I find it hard to comprehend how this has blown up compared to some things I've witnessed on the Scoobynet BBS directly aimed at you and Lisa.
I offered an olive branch and an explanation, but it seems you wanted blood.

I now find that another post of mine, asking if Lisa could honestly believe that any member of the SIDC or any of those that attended Bedford would actually go around to your house, wielding a baseball bat and threaten you, Lisa or your daughter, has been removed completely. Where was the offence in that. If you think there are such individuals, ban them from the SIDC, if not then what are you worried about?

You've accused me, personally and publicly, of causing distress to Lisa. The least you can do is allow me to defend my comments or back up these accusations, don't you think?

[Edited by DavidLewis - 12/8/2002 10:49:48 PM]

Phil

Edited

He is not worth it



[Edited by phil_stephens - 12/7/2002 6:30:56 PM]

DavidLewis

oopps, better throw out all my L'Oreal products

[Edited by DavidLewis - 12/7/2002 7:02:53 PM]

DavidLewis

Apology retracted, since after intervention by moderators, I no longer have anything to apologise for.

[Edited by DavidLewis - 12/8/2002 8:18:10 PM]

DavidLewis

Craig.

Yep, JP was slightly arrogant too. Things may well be getting harder for them and can only get worse if he starts banning every club that wants to push the noise limits. If that continues, I may just get the chance to take my Saab on track, since it will be the only type of vehicle left that could pass the noise regs.
On the other hand (both sides of both sides again) I just don't feel that (should you all get your money back) its worth risking the future of the SIDC @ Bedford for.

Editted bit: If it were me, I wouldn't want to take the XTR to Bedford in the first place, not challenging enough! You'd be much better off at Donno and I'd hope to see you there one day.



[Edited by DavidLewis - 12/8/2002 9:30:50 AM]

Phil

JP's CV
Races for Tyrrell

Date Circuit Qualified Finished Race Report
05 Nov 1989 Adelaide DNQ Retired: DNQ Here
22 Oct 1989 Suzuka 26th Retired: Fuel Leak Here
01 Oct 1989 Jerez 13th 10th Here
24 Sep 1989 Estoril 18th 6th Here
10 Sep 1989 Monza 14th Retired: Engine Here
27 Aug 1989 Spa Francorchamps 21st 14th Here
13 Aug 1989 Hungaroring 19th 13th Here
30 Jul 1989 Hockenheim 19th Retired: Throttle Cable Here
16 Jul 1989 Silverstone 18th Retired: Accident Here
09 Jul 1989 Paul Ricard 9th 10th Here
18 Jun 1989 Montreal 14th Retired: Hit Wall Here
04 Jun 1989 Phoenix 21st 9th Here
28 May 1989 Mexico City 14th Retired: Throttle Linkage Here
07 May 1989 Monte Carlo 23rd 9th Here
23 Apr 1989 Imola 25th 6th Here
26 Mar 1989 Jacarepagua 18th 7th Here

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

13 Nov 1988 Adelaide 17th Retired: Transmission Here
30 Oct 1988 Suzuka 16th 12th Here
02 Oct 1988 Jerez 22nd Retired: Accident Here
25 Sep 1988 Estoril 22nd Retired: Overheating Here
11 Sep 1988 Monza DNQ Retired: DNQ Here
28 Aug 1988 Spa Francorchamps 21st 12th Here
07 Aug 1988 Hungaroring 21st Retired: Engine Here
24 Jul 1988 Hockenheim 24th 11th Here
10 Jul 1988 Silverstone 17th Retired: Transmission Here
03 Jul 1988 Paul Ricard 23rd Retired: Engine Here
19 Jun 1988 Detroit 17th 5th Here
12 Jun 1988 Montreal 19th 6th Here
29 May 1988 Mexico City DNQ Retired: DNQ Here
15 May 1988 Monte Carlo 10th 5th Here
01 May 1988 Imola 23rd 14th Here
03 Apr 1988 Jacarepagua 22nd Retired: Transmission Here

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

15 Nov 1987 Adelaide 19th 4th Here
01 Nov 1987 Suzuka 19th 8th Here
18 Oct 1987 Mexico City 22nd 7th Here
27 Sep 1987 Jerez 16th Retired: Hit By Arnoux Here
20 Sep 1987 Estoril 24th 10th Here
06 Sep 1987 Monza 22nd 14th Here
16 Aug 1987 Osterreichring 24th 15th Here
09 Aug 1987 Hungaroring 16th 7th Here
26 Jul 1987 Hockenheim 23rd 5th Here
12 Jul 1987 Silverstone 23rd 8th Here
05 Jul 1987 Paul Ricard 24th 7th Here
21 Jun 1987 Detroit 13th 11th Here
31 May 1987 Monte Carlo 15th 5th Here
17 May 1987 Spa Francorchamps 24th Retired: Accident With Streiff-1 Here
03 May 1987 Imola 23rd Retired: Clutch Here
12 Apr 1987 Jacarepagua 18th 10th Here

Races for Zakspeed

Date Circuit Qualified Finished Race Report
26 Oct 1986 Adelaide 21st 9th Here
12 Oct 1986 Mexico City 18th 10th Here
21 Sep 1986 Estoril 20th 12th Here
07 Sep 1986 Monza 22nd Retired: Alternator Here
17 Aug 1986 Osterreichring 21st Retired: Engine Here
10 Aug 1986 Hungaroring 24th 10th Here
27 Jul 1986 Hockenheim 16th Retired: Engine Here
13 Jul 1986 Brands Hatch 22nd 9th Here
06 Jul 1986 Paul Ricard 22nd Retired: Engine Here
22 Jun 1986 Detroit 20th 8th Here
15 Jun 1986 Montreal 22nd Retired: Engine Here
25 May 1986 Spa Francorchamps 20th Retired: NC Here
11 May 1986 Monte Carlo 19th 12th Here
27 Apr 1986 Imola 20th Retired: Brakes Here
13 Apr 1986 Jerez 16th Retired: Accident With Jones Here
23 Mar 1986 Jacarepagua 21st Retired: Airbox Here

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

25 Aug 1985 Zandvoort 23rd Retired: Oil Pressure Here
18 Aug 1985 Osterreichring 25th Retired: Engine Here
04 Aug 1985 Nurburgring 24th Retired: Alternator Belt Here
21 Jul 1985 Silverstone 24th Retired: Engine Here
07 Jul 1985 Paul Ricard 21st Retired: Engine Here
19 May 1985 Monte Carlo 19th 11th Here
05 May 1985 Imola 17th Retired: DNS:Misfire On Parade lap Here
21 Apr 1985 Estoril 23rd Retired: Suspension Here

Races for Ralph and Macdonald

Date Circuit Qualified Finished Race Report
21 Oct 1984 Estoril 26th Retired: Gearbox Here
07 Oct 1984 Nurburgring 21st Retired: Turbo Here
09 Sep 1984 Monza 26th Retired: Oil Pressure Here
26 Aug 1984 Zandvoort 22nd 9th Here
19 Aug 1984 Osterreichring 23rd 9th Here
05 Aug 1984 Hockenheim 25th Retired: Turbo Here
22 Jul 1984 Brands Hatch 23rd Retired: Steering/Crash-1 Here
08 Jul 1984 Dallas 25th Retired: Electrical Here
24 Jun 1984 Detroit 24th Retired: Blowout/Accident Here
03 Jun 1984 Monte Carlo DNQ Retired: DNQ Here
20 May 1984 Dijon-Prenois 21st 13th Here
06 May 1984 Imola 25th 9th Here
29 Apr 1984 Zolder 26th 10th Here
07 Apr 1984 Kyalami 21st Retired: Gearbox Here
25 Mar 1984 Jacarepagua 26th 8th Here

Races for Williams

Date Circuit Qualified Finished Race Report
25 Sep 1983 Brands Hatch 25th 13th Here


Still no slouch though

Phil

[Edited by phil_stephens - 12/8/2002 8:01:11 PM]

carl

I make that 88 Grands Prix

I don't think someone would be able to stay in F1 for that long if they were crap.

This "F1 World Champion" business -- maybe Pavlo is referring to some other F1 championship. Remember, there are F1 powerboats, F1 stockcars, etc.

Maybe this bit is relevant:
"Three seasons with Tyrrell followed, during which he took the 1988 Jim Clark Trophy for the best-placed driver of a non-turbocharged car competing in the World Championship"
http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/drv-paljon.html

[Edited by carl - 12/8/2002 7:54:52 PM]