Porsche 964 - opinions please!
04 October 2001, 03:35 PM
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Hi,
I was wondering if anyone on this BBS has ever owned a Porsche 964 (C4, C2 or RS)??
Thinking about getting a 2nd car and these look really tempting.
What do you think the depressiation on these are - are they future 'classics'?
any info (good or bad) would be gratefully received.
Cheers,
Andy
I was wondering if anyone on this BBS has ever owned a Porsche 964 (C4, C2 or RS)??
Thinking about getting a 2nd car and these look really tempting.
What do you think the depressiation on these are - are they future 'classics'?
any info (good or bad) would be gratefully received.
Cheers,
Andy
04 October 2001, 03:51 PM
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RS is very rare, I'd not even bother trying to look for one. They're also a lot more expensive, I'd love one. Out of the two I'd go for a Carrera 4 for obvious reasons, keep in mind servicing and running costs are very expensive, more than your Scoob. Cars are quite reliable though with typical German build quality (did you see Clarkson's back-handed compliment to the 911 on one of his Christmas videos?). Bodies are galvanised so you shouldn't have a problem with rust for a very long time (my dads 1978 911SC has only just started showing the tiniest bit of bubbling on the edge of the bonnet), as long as you keep it clean and tidy, get it serviced regularly, you could be onto a winner. Porsche service history is pretty vital though, that costs an arm and a leg but for maximum resale you have no choice. If you become a Porsche Club member you can get standard parts and services for a flat rate among those dealers that advertise so. Hope that helps a little.
Steve.
Steve.
04 October 2001, 03:55 PM
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Jason,
no, I'm *looking* (or is that dreaming) for is information on what Joe (or Jo) public would call a 911 circa 1990. Oh, and the wierd square one (part Porsche, part VW) was the 914. Look quite cool now, in a sort of matchbox car, retro kinda way.
The prices seem to be around 20 grand for a Carrera 4. Wondering if they'll go any lower or if they'll actually start going up again.
On the Driving Developments webpage they have an RS for around 23K. It's advertised as a track car, so probably bolloxed. Probably more interested in a C4 for wet weather enjoyment.
Any more info (anyone)??
Andy
PS. Cheers Steve for the info. Anyone own or test driven one?
[This message has been edited by andyp (edited 04 October 2001).]
no, I'm *looking* (or is that dreaming) for is information on what Joe (or Jo) public would call a 911 circa 1990. Oh, and the wierd square one (part Porsche, part VW) was the 914. Look quite cool now, in a sort of matchbox car, retro kinda way.
The prices seem to be around 20 grand for a Carrera 4. Wondering if they'll go any lower or if they'll actually start going up again.
On the Driving Developments webpage they have an RS for around 23K. It's advertised as a track car, so probably bolloxed. Probably more interested in a C4 for wet weather enjoyment.
Any more info (anyone)??
Andy
PS. Cheers Steve for the info. Anyone own or test driven one?
[This message has been edited by andyp (edited 04 October 2001).]
04 October 2001, 03:57 PM
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The 964 is a 911 Jason, next to last air cooled model..996, 993, 964 in reverse age order.
The RS is a definite future classic, many have been driven hard though. Depreciation probably not an issue.
The only problem I know about with them is the maintainance seem to be very high compared to both older and newer models.
Anyway, have a look in this months EVO mag for a review.
Cheers
Chuck
The RS is a definite future classic, many have been driven hard though. Depreciation probably not an issue.
The only problem I know about with them is the maintainance seem to be very high compared to both older and newer models.
Anyway, have a look in this months EVO mag for a review.
Cheers
Chuck
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04 October 2001, 04:00 PM
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Chuck,
EVO's what's raised my interest. Was pondering Lotus Esprit (too impractical) and Renault Alpine A610 (hmmm, nice), when I read the EVO article. Always wanted a Carrera 4, but never realised the price had dropped so much. Now I've sold the bike I'm looking with again,
Andy
[This message has been edited by andyp (edited 04 October 2001).]
EVO's what's raised my interest. Was pondering Lotus Esprit (too impractical) and Renault Alpine A610 (hmmm, nice), when I read the EVO article. Always wanted a Carrera 4, but never realised the price had dropped so much. Now I've sold the bike I'm looking with again,
Andy
[This message has been edited by andyp (edited 04 October 2001).]
04 October 2001, 04:02 PM
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Andyp,
I have never owned one but am interested in all 911's
There was a thread on here about 964's (1989>1993 model 911's) a month or two back.
There were a few comments about it being one of the least reliable 911's - something to do with oil leaks and cylinder head trouble.
The RS spec engine had all of this sorted though so it may be possible to find one which has had the necessary work has been done using the best possible parts.
I don't know all the facts but the view was it may be better to go for a pre 1989 model (Carerra 3.2) or try and push the budget out to a 993 (1994>1997 Models).
The latter were of course the last of the air-cooled models and I have heard they are relatively bomb-proof.
That is what I'd like to do as out here you can pick up a nice one for £25k (although I have just read in the '911 Story' by Paul Frere, that Swiss spec cars had taller gear ratios to help them pass the drive by noise regulations
Hardly ideal in a mountainous country as he put it!
As ever, it is almost always best to buy the last verison of an old model than the first version of a new one!
Depreciation-wise....I would assume that running costs are probably more of an issue on a 10 year old car.
I'd say the best way to avoid depreciation is to buy a (LHD) car in Germany and sell it in the UK!
I have never owned one but am interested in all 911's
There was a thread on here about 964's (1989>1993 model 911's) a month or two back.
There were a few comments about it being one of the least reliable 911's - something to do with oil leaks and cylinder head trouble.
The RS spec engine had all of this sorted though so it may be possible to find one which has had the necessary work has been done using the best possible parts.
I don't know all the facts but the view was it may be better to go for a pre 1989 model (Carerra 3.2) or try and push the budget out to a 993 (1994>1997 Models).
The latter were of course the last of the air-cooled models and I have heard they are relatively bomb-proof.
That is what I'd like to do as out here you can pick up a nice one for £25k (although I have just read in the '911 Story' by Paul Frere, that Swiss spec cars had taller gear ratios to help them pass the drive by noise regulations
Hardly ideal in a mountainous country as he put it!As ever, it is almost always best to buy the last verison of an old model than the first version of a new one!
Depreciation-wise....I would assume that running costs are probably more of an issue on a 10 year old car.
I'd say the best way to avoid depreciation is to buy a (LHD) car in Germany and sell it in the UK!
04 October 2001, 04:04 PM
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Unlike Evo's 993 which seemed OK, Autocar ran a 964 for a while (it was a yellow one) and they reckoned it was rather unreliable -- they also lost a shed load in deprectiation.
04 October 2001, 04:09 PM
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Of course!
I'm attacking my keyboard before engaging brain.
In that case I have driven one and it wasn't a pleasant experience, although I must say that the one I was driving was a bit of a nail. It wasn't a good one at all.
J uk
I'm attacking my keyboard before engaging brain.
In that case I have driven one and it wasn't a pleasant experience, although I must say that the one I was driving was a bit of a nail. It wasn't a good one at all.
J uk
04 October 2001, 04:20 PM
#12
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If you can get a 993 I'd go for one of those instead, the ones for 25k will be either left hand drive or not very good condition, for the time being.
Steve.
Steve.
04 October 2001, 05:54 PM
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964 (911 Carrera)
In 1989 Porsche introduced the 911 Carrera 4 (Type 964), an all wheel drive addition to the 11 line based on an all new platform. The engine for this car was a development of the previous Carrera engine increased in displacement to 3600 cc by increasing the bore to 100 mm and the stroke to 76.4 mm. Much of the rest of the car was all new, Porsche said that 85% of the parts were all new.
The complete body for the Carrera 4 was revised while retaining the original 911 shape and appearance as the basis. The new front and rear ends were made of thrermoplastic and were integrated into the design replacing the older 911 bumpers that had an added on appearance that was common with all cars of the mid to late seventies because of the US bumper laws. The new bumper design, together with the extending rear spoiler and smooth underside greatly improved overall aerodynamics for Carrera 4.
The front fenders and headlight design were the same as the older 911 design, while the rear tailight assembly including both tail lights and the rear fog lights were inclined in the Carrera 4.
The windshield was also repositioned further forward in the A-pillars to give it a more flush mounting and further improve the aerodynamics. The rear window although not mounted flush with body like the windshield was also mounted higher in the body to also improve the aerodynamics.
The front suspension was changed to a type of independent Mc Pherson strut design utilizing light alloy cast control arms and coil over shock absorber springs. The rear was changed to independent suspension with lower light alloy semi trailing arms and coil over shock absorber springs.
In addition to the all wheel drive and new suspension the Carrera 4 had all wheel ABS and power steering.
(1990 Model) - (Carrera 2 and Carrera 4) Carrera 2. The Carrera 2 a two wheel drive version of the 964 platform was introduced in 1990. The original 911 platform was discontinued and Carrera 2 and Carrera 4 replaced previous models of the 911.
The Carrera 2 was very similar to the Carrera 4 and maintaining many of the same features such as the new front and rear suspension designs, the 4 wheel ABS brake system and power steering.
The Carrera 2 was offered with both the five speed and Porsche introduced a new four speed automatic transmission that they called the Tiptronic. This new sports transmission with integrated hypoid final drive was capable of both manual and automatic shifting.
The Carrera 2/4 with the manual five speed transmission used the double mass flywheel instead of a rubber centered clutch to reduce the noise of the transmission.
Carrera 4 had 2 switches in the center console, one to lock the rear differential in case you had 1 wheel on ice and the other for raising the rear spoiler. The Carrera 2 only had the switch for raising the rear spoiler.
Both the Carrera 2 and Carrera for were available in Coupe, Targa and Cabriolet. All Carrera 2s and 4s were standard with both drivers and passengers air bag in the United States.
There were a couple of problems with these early C2/4 models that can be an expensive nascence there were a lot of failures with the original dual mass fly wheel and there was a problem with the cylinder heads leaking. Both of these problems were fixed in 1991/92 and Porsche has been pretty good about helping fix the earlier cars.
taken from an article by
By Bruce Anderson
Technical Chairman
Porsche Club of America
I'll try and dig some more stuff out if you want.
Mark
[This message has been edited by Mark Champion (edited 04 October 2001).]
In 1989 Porsche introduced the 911 Carrera 4 (Type 964), an all wheel drive addition to the 11 line based on an all new platform. The engine for this car was a development of the previous Carrera engine increased in displacement to 3600 cc by increasing the bore to 100 mm and the stroke to 76.4 mm. Much of the rest of the car was all new, Porsche said that 85% of the parts were all new.
The complete body for the Carrera 4 was revised while retaining the original 911 shape and appearance as the basis. The new front and rear ends were made of thrermoplastic and were integrated into the design replacing the older 911 bumpers that had an added on appearance that was common with all cars of the mid to late seventies because of the US bumper laws. The new bumper design, together with the extending rear spoiler and smooth underside greatly improved overall aerodynamics for Carrera 4.
The front fenders and headlight design were the same as the older 911 design, while the rear tailight assembly including both tail lights and the rear fog lights were inclined in the Carrera 4.
The windshield was also repositioned further forward in the A-pillars to give it a more flush mounting and further improve the aerodynamics. The rear window although not mounted flush with body like the windshield was also mounted higher in the body to also improve the aerodynamics.
The front suspension was changed to a type of independent Mc Pherson strut design utilizing light alloy cast control arms and coil over shock absorber springs. The rear was changed to independent suspension with lower light alloy semi trailing arms and coil over shock absorber springs.
In addition to the all wheel drive and new suspension the Carrera 4 had all wheel ABS and power steering.
(1990 Model) - (Carrera 2 and Carrera 4) Carrera 2. The Carrera 2 a two wheel drive version of the 964 platform was introduced in 1990. The original 911 platform was discontinued and Carrera 2 and Carrera 4 replaced previous models of the 911.
The Carrera 2 was very similar to the Carrera 4 and maintaining many of the same features such as the new front and rear suspension designs, the 4 wheel ABS brake system and power steering.
The Carrera 2 was offered with both the five speed and Porsche introduced a new four speed automatic transmission that they called the Tiptronic. This new sports transmission with integrated hypoid final drive was capable of both manual and automatic shifting.
The Carrera 2/4 with the manual five speed transmission used the double mass flywheel instead of a rubber centered clutch to reduce the noise of the transmission.
Carrera 4 had 2 switches in the center console, one to lock the rear differential in case you had 1 wheel on ice and the other for raising the rear spoiler. The Carrera 2 only had the switch for raising the rear spoiler.
Both the Carrera 2 and Carrera for were available in Coupe, Targa and Cabriolet. All Carrera 2s and 4s were standard with both drivers and passengers air bag in the United States.
There were a couple of problems with these early C2/4 models that can be an expensive nascence there were a lot of failures with the original dual mass fly wheel and there was a problem with the cylinder heads leaking. Both of these problems were fixed in 1991/92 and Porsche has been pretty good about helping fix the earlier cars.
taken from an article by
By Bruce Anderson
Technical Chairman
Porsche Club of America
I'll try and dig some more stuff out if you want.
Mark
[This message has been edited by Mark Champion (edited 04 October 2001).]
04 October 2001, 08:51 PM
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Many thanks for all the info so far. Now that people mention it, I do remember a thread previous to this which generally said stay away from these and get a 993!
Unfortuntely I simply can't afford a 993, LHD or RHD. And to be honest I am getting a little bit put off by all the horror stories.
HOWEVER, nobody has told me what they are like to drive (surely this is the most important thing!). The background to the interest in a 964 was that I've had my eye on an S2 elise as a 2nd car after I sell the bike. Now the bike has gone I'm thinking that the elise is simply too wimpy (power wise) and that an older car may be more fun. There seem to be a resonable amount of 964s at similar prices to s2 elises. How do these two compare for driving experience. I will doubtless keep the Scoob for everyday transport since I can rely on it. But something more exotic, that I can afford to have off the road, seems the order of the day.
Is there anyone that would like to put the case forward to defend the 964???
Cheers,
Andy
Unfortuntely I simply can't afford a 993, LHD or RHD. And to be honest I am getting a little bit put off by all the horror stories.
HOWEVER, nobody has told me what they are like to drive (surely this is the most important thing!). The background to the interest in a 964 was that I've had my eye on an S2 elise as a 2nd car after I sell the bike. Now the bike has gone I'm thinking that the elise is simply too wimpy (power wise) and that an older car may be more fun. There seem to be a resonable amount of 964s at similar prices to s2 elises. How do these two compare for driving experience. I will doubtless keep the Scoob for everyday transport since I can rely on it. But something more exotic, that I can afford to have off the road, seems the order of the day.
Is there anyone that would like to put the case forward to defend the 964???
Cheers,
Andy
05 October 2001, 07:34 AM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by stevencotton:
<B>RS is very rare, I'd not even bother trying to look for one. They're also a lot more expensive, I'd love one. [/quote]
Funny you should say that.
There is an immaculate 964 RS, Silver, Black Leather, Factory air con (not normal on this car), two owners, one lady for last nine years, full Porshce paperwork, 37,000kms.....
....but you are right about the price. £29k.
But this is a once in a lifetime car, it is just so perfect (and I am reliably told that the lady owner was not Michelle Mouton before anybody asks!).
If I had the cash I would buy it myself - even sorely tempt to chop the Scoob for it!!!!!!!!!
Trout
<B>RS is very rare, I'd not even bother trying to look for one. They're also a lot more expensive, I'd love one. [/quote]
Funny you should say that.
There is an immaculate 964 RS, Silver, Black Leather, Factory air con (not normal on this car), two owners, one lady for last nine years, full Porshce paperwork, 37,000kms.....
....but you are right about the price. £29k.
But this is a once in a lifetime car, it is just so perfect (and I am reliably told that the lady owner was not Michelle Mouton before anybody asks!).
If I had the cash I would buy it myself - even sorely tempt to chop the Scoob for it!!!!!!!!!
Trout
05 October 2001, 07:31 PM
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The 964 is a top car, but I'd go for the C2 is you want one. More involving to drive according to people who've tried both, better steering feel, faster. Rear-engine 911s have plenty of traction anyway so 4wd is not such a boon as in a scoob.
The 964RS is an amazing car, been in one and it is extremely fast indeed (v high cornering speed - straight line it's about as quick as a P1/Evo VI). How does 8'15s round the Nurburgring grab you? It is a harsh ride but I could live with it. Lovely engine sound (no soundproofing), excellent build quality and blueprinted engine. Simply amazing brakes taken from the 911 turbo, which make scoob Alcon/AP 6 pots feel weedy (seriously!). Basically it is an awesome track & (not v practical) road tool. You can drive straight to the track, lap like a lunatic, then drive home again and all you have to do is change the oil and check the pads. None of this spending 5 grand on mods like a scoob. Been thinking of getting one myself, but they go for 25-30k (30 for a tip top one) even for LHD, RHD are quite rare. You can find them, I was looking at one this week and they can be imported from German specialist dealers easily. The standard C2 is £20k for one in decent nick. Only reason I am not getting an RS is cost and the fact that they don't go sideways very well (too grippy).
Depreciation should be fairly low now, you're talking about 1-2k a year (maybe less for the RS which could be a future classic) if you keep it in good nick. Running costs not cheap but not at silly levels.
Definitely test drive an RS, if nothing else you will at least see what a true performance car is like!
The 964RS is an amazing car, been in one and it is extremely fast indeed (v high cornering speed - straight line it's about as quick as a P1/Evo VI). How does 8'15s round the Nurburgring grab you? It is a harsh ride but I could live with it. Lovely engine sound (no soundproofing), excellent build quality and blueprinted engine. Simply amazing brakes taken from the 911 turbo, which make scoob Alcon/AP 6 pots feel weedy (seriously!). Basically it is an awesome track & (not v practical) road tool. You can drive straight to the track, lap like a lunatic, then drive home again and all you have to do is change the oil and check the pads. None of this spending 5 grand on mods like a scoob. Been thinking of getting one myself, but they go for 25-30k (30 for a tip top one) even for LHD, RHD are quite rare. You can find them, I was looking at one this week and they can be imported from German specialist dealers easily. The standard C2 is £20k for one in decent nick. Only reason I am not getting an RS is cost and the fact that they don't go sideways very well (too grippy).
Depreciation should be fairly low now, you're talking about 1-2k a year (maybe less for the RS which could be a future classic) if you keep it in good nick. Running costs not cheap but not at silly levels.
Definitely test drive an RS, if nothing else you will at least see what a true performance car is like!
06 October 2001, 02:28 AM
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If you are looking to get a std 964 they are excellent cars, typical Porsche build quality, and unfortunately, running costs.
The CS version is a different thing all together, two seater, and recognised as one of the best handling cars available, you are into a higher plane than the Scooby with this car in most repects. Never tried the RS version but I guess it's awesome the rest of their RS types are. Great second car, wish I'd bought that yellow one.
The CS version is a different thing all together, two seater, and recognised as one of the best handling cars available, you are into a higher plane than the Scooby with this car in most repects. Never tried the RS version but I guess it's awesome the rest of their RS types are. Great second car, wish I'd bought that yellow one.
07 October 2001, 10:03 PM
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Andy,
The 964 is a good car (all 911's are if looked after). However, if you buy a poor example it will eat you out of house and home. One of the most common problem area is the dual mass flywheel.
If it is your first 911 I would also consider an SC to start with as they don't depreciate and parts tend to be pretty cheap. Alternatives are to go for a 944 (front engine water cooled) which are currently mega bargains.
For a first buy I wouldn't recommend a turbo as they can be expensive to run and a bit of a handful.
If you are serious you will need to buy from a good source (if you are new to Porsche or not mega technically oriented avoid Exchange & Mart like adverts).
The 964 is a good car (all 911's are if looked after). However, if you buy a poor example it will eat you out of house and home. One of the most common problem area is the dual mass flywheel.
If it is your first 911 I would also consider an SC to start with as they don't depreciate and parts tend to be pretty cheap. Alternatives are to go for a 944 (front engine water cooled) which are currently mega bargains.
For a first buy I wouldn't recommend a turbo as they can be expensive to run and a bit of a handful.
If you are serious you will need to buy from a good source (if you are new to Porsche or not mega technically oriented avoid Exchange & Mart like adverts).
08 October 2001, 10:23 AM
#24
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Trout:
two owners, one lady for last nine years<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
'lady owner' to me means the clutch has been ridden all the time, probably had a few dings and minor parking accidents in Tescos, engine not been over 2.5k revs, and could well have been chosen for its colour rather than what the car is, why people think by default a car will be better for it is beyond me
Steve.
two owners, one lady for last nine years<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
'lady owner' to me means the clutch has been ridden all the time, probably had a few dings and minor parking accidents in Tescos, engine not been over 2.5k revs, and could well have been chosen for its colour rather than what the car is, why people think by default a car will be better for it is beyond me
Steve.
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