fast bloke

Pete - who would you suggest they nuke? Think it through. The Americans are making this implication to keep nucler capability in peoples minds as the ultimate weapon, and to imply that it is not only a deterrent, but a realistic possibility. If they blow away a small country in Middle east or south Asia, Isreal and Russia are probably going to get a tad upset - dontya think?

Pete_UK99

You are very wrong indeed, I'm still in shock over the incident. I'm just getting info and passing it on. I find it quite shocking that you would think this.

stevencotton

Must admit I don't see any excitement in any of Petes posts, more worry and fear which are certainly some of the emotions I'm feeling at the moment. Something really bad has kicked off and I'm certainly thinking what he's saying.

Steve.

carl

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fast bloke:
<B>If they blow away a small country in Middle east or south Asia, Isreal and Russia are probably going to get a tad upset - dontya think? [/quote]

I don't think the Israelis or the Russians would care if Afghanistan disappeared. The Russians have had a few problems in Afghanistan before...

Pete_UK99

Cheers Steve I was beginning to think I was the only one who was seriously worried about this situation.

fast bloke

You don't think they would care about the effect's of radiation and fallout on their countries? The explosion/meltdown at Chernobyl was about 1% of the size of a single warhead and we got the fallout in the UK. What would 20 or 30 of these do to Russia and Isreal, both countries who have their own nuclear capabilities and no current gripe with the U.S.?

BobaFett

I am also quite concerned about this.

Last night some American chap said that any retaliation would not be surgical (such as a SEAL incursion) but would be massive.

Bush himself as good as said that if your the country harbouring the terrorist who did this then your as much as to blame as well.

I think Pete has a valid point, and the use of Nukes seriously scares the s**t out of me.

fast bloke

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Pete_UK99:
<B>Cheers Steve I was beginning to think I was the only one who was seriously worried about this situation.[/quote]

Pete - If you are worried by it think how the people who planned it are feeling. I am prepared to bet my house on the fact there will not be a nuclear war. Are you up for it?

MartinM

IMHO Pete...

Yes this is a truly awful thing and who knows where its going to lead...and Scoobynet is a recognised place to discuss things that are far bigger than our prized cars

...but if you want to keep feeding us press reports and your thoughts/speculations, can I suggest that you keep to one thread rather than creating (5 so far?) individual threads

...and with greatest respect, is 'General Questions' really the right place for it anyway? I'm trying to escape this tragic event for a few minutes and have some 'Quality ScoobyTime' (TM) without having it in my face all the time.

Regards

(All personal opinions of course, so any flaming wil be ignored )

Paul M

IF it is Bin Laden , who is getting fingered for this , then think of him as a cancerous growth.
The Americans have tried to infiltrate his groups and destroy him via a precise operation ( similar to laser treatment say), theyve tried a cruise misile attack on his base in Afghanistan (similar to cutting out a tumor). Both have failed, there is and will be a lot of pressure for Bush to act in a manner that will totally eradicate the problem, where there will be no doubt that he will be destroyed. (ie he will be pushed to use a massive amount of force, covering physically large areas to ensure 'success').
The Americans have already started on tis route, by announcing that, in their eyes the country that he is in, is just as guilty and therefore, there will be no deference in punishment.

BobaFett

There may not be a war but a single strike may be used.

In WW2 the US dropped 2 Atomic bombs, on the day of the first bomb at Hiroshima, more people we're killed by conventional bombing and shelling from ships, the Japanese we're about ready to surrender, but the Nukes we're used to make a point. No one had ever seen anything like it before from 1 destructive device, and a point it made. You could argue that since then the existence of Nuclear weapons on both the parts of Russia and US have maintained an uneasy peace.

During the Gulf War, Pres. Bush (version 1) said that should Iraq use Chemical weapons against them the use of Nukes would be a likely option, Israel also said that if Chemical warheads we're dropped that they would likely nuke Iraq. It did not happen.

The use of a single nuke strike is highly likely I believe, not an all out war. The US has to send a message to the terrorists of the world that they can't get away with this, a single strike on the country harbouring the perpitraitors of the act will cause terrorist globally to think twice in the future.

Agreed, that this is not the best way forward and is extremely volitile, i do not see this as the answer, just a possible outcome, the US WILL retaliate you can be sure of that, and if the majority of the civilised world backs them they are likely to get away with anything.

Just my opinions.

Lee M

Nukes???? This sort of bu11**** always flys around.... its like the Nostradamus crap that has been misinterpreted and misquoted (although everything he ever said has!! ) Chinese whispers and all that. America uses its nuclear missiles as a deterent not a weapon to use aggressively. Other wise why didn't they use them in the gulf war? We still don't know who was responsible for the whole thing... the culprit could be some nutters in the US. Remember Oklahoma? what then nuke Texas... Any use of nuclear weapons would be totally over the top and no other nation would sanction this... Even big doubleya wouldn't be that stooopid. I will bet my house on it too.... Sorry to get soo wound up by this but my companys entire New York office was based on 24 and 25 of tower 1 and 50 of tower 2....

Neil Smalley

I was discussing the same thing with my wife today.

I seriously would not rule out the use of nukes. It depends no how extreme the US want to be.

Nuke against who is the question.

They know where the terrorist bases are
They know the mountain range where Bin Laden is hiding.
They know the countries that harbour terrorists.
They even know who most of the terrorists are.

Bush's statement yesterday was telling, he did not mention bringing to justice those who did this. Only punishing them. Also it has been stated that a few cruise missiles will not suffice this time

In the West we had such a thing as due process, and innocent until proven guilty. I think this has just gone out of the window.

People are crying out for blood and I fear that is what they will get. To invade Afganistan to get at Bin Laden will be another Vietnam, a nightmare. The whole country is basically a mountain range.

I suspect the response will be to 'cut off' economically and politically any country that harbours terrorists. Then, quietly take out those involved, regardless of due process. In the short term expect to see a massive retailiation against known terrorist bases who knows if that will be nuclear or not. I suspect that small nukes may be used on bases in the middle of nowhere. Just to make a point.

So big counterstrike within the next few days to keep the countries happy. Then a secret, all out war carried out by special forces against known terrorists for the forceable future.

The effects will be greater survelliance, more restriction on movement and a loss of individual's rights. This is the scarist part of what is going on. That govts will use terrorism as an excuse to control their populations...

To do anything more its really inviting trouble. I just hope 'dubya' is more intelligent than people give him credit for

shunty

I agree with your statement BobaFeta...let's send out a global message to these people.
My wife & I were horrified by the pics & stories on the tv last night.

ps - we should have nuked IRAQ last time as well, done the job properly.
just MY opinion of course, we are all entitiled to one remember.

shunty

[This message has been edited by shunty (edited 12 September 2001).]

Pete_UK99

Martin M. I can see your point of view. But I like many others want to know as much info on this needless disater. Unfortunatly I do not have access to everyones emails on this forum and so the only way to pass on the info is through this forum. I agee that it's nice to get away from this awful news but with the greatest respect if you don't want to read it then don't open the thread. I don't see the harm in these posts and I really don't think they should belong in the muppet area. I agree this is a Subaru site and most questions should be about cars, but this isn't an everyday event. And seeing as I like to think that a lot of friends are on this site then I would also like to think that I can pass on important news through it.


Thank you

Peter B

Dazzler

We can all speculate and deliberate as much as we want regarding this issue, it ain't gonna get us anywhere.
We've got to hope that no matter what attrocities have occurred, however vile, retaliation should NEVER come in Nuclear form!
They will hopefully bring the perpetrators to justice without inflicting the same suffering on other defenseless people.

Lee M

Well said Dazzler, I could not agree more.

Pete_UK99

THE SCALE of the attacks and the loss of life ensured that “no option has been taken off the table,” senior U.S. officials said. Asked if that included nuclear weapons, one senior official said: “I said no option is out of the question. That’s precisely what I mean.”

This could be very bad

Lee M

You seem to be getting excited by this... not scared... You are also scaremongering and being very sensationalist, are you after a job at the sun newspaper. False Nostrabull**** and now nuclear war??? Many, many people have died and millions of people have lost friends and colleagues. You seem to be enjoying it, in the same way people rubber neck at accidents..... I apologise if I have got the wrong end of the stick, as I have no previous experience of you, other than your last two posts.

Scoobychick

iTrader: (1)

Yep - I'm with Dazzler on this too

BarryK

As quoted by the geezer from the Washington Post on TV last night, the last time an act of such infamy occurred was December 7th 1941. That killed approx 2,000 (mainly) military personnel at the Pacific Fleet naval base of Pearl Harbor. This was a declaration of war which led the US into five years of conflict, which had to be seen out to the end to eradicate the perpetrators, both in Europe and the Far East.

So by the same token an attack on civilian targets ranks as an act of even greater infamy, killing more than 2,000 non military personnel.

Make no mistake, like after Pearl Harbor, the USA is at war. Indeed the "free democratic" world is at war, we can no longer sit back and take this. This is 1941 again, some people want to kill us, although the enemy is less easy to identify as they will not show themselves.

Unfortunately, these crimes have, so far as I am aware, not been committed in the name of anyone or anything at the moment, But when the culprits fess up (look at the number of tough nut hard talking **** stirrers who are anxiously denying it was them) all the world knows they have pushed it too far.

I suspect the response has to be like that taken out on Germany and Japan in the 1940s.

By that I don't mean nukes I mean wholesale occupation and eradication of the "***** and they're sympathisers" or their modern equivalent.

Oh and did anybody notice a bomb went off in Londonderry today? No, good maybe they'll stop doing it then.

Paul M

With reference to aboveand for those with no coverage while at work.
Colin Powell, has just stated that the American people see this as an act of war, he see's it as an act of and it will be treated as and responded to as an act of war. Earlier asked what repsones had been ruled in or out, the reply was that nothing had ruled out, asked if that included a nuclear attack (short range battlefield), replied and emphasised tha NO repsonse has been ruled out.

Sam Elassar

this quite disturbing now. i can't believe any one would even consider bombing another country let alone use a nuke. this is not a game for **** sake!!!!!!! 20k people have been killed and the correct way to deal with this should never be by trying to kill another 20k on the other side of the world!!!!!!!! just because you won't be able to seem them suffer of TV will not mean that it is not there. this is very very sad. one person or a group of people have been responsible for this devastating act and not a whole country, full of women and children and guys/gals like you and me just want to enjoy life really.

another thing you need to consider is that since the fall down of the USSR Nukes have been available for a lot of these countries on the black market as well. so think about what you could do when you are desperate.

something need to be done but it has to be rational, this is serious ****. so there is no way anything of that sort will be used.

we still don't know who has done it yet. just a lot of media trip as they really want some one to blame.

the is a very sad no win situation

jimbob2

In terms of getting whoever did it, we (the civilised world) are a bit stuffed. The Americans want immediate action - well that is simply not an option unless they suddenly manage to get conclusive proof of who was behind it. Look how long the Lockerbie thing took to clear up.

This could go on for years.

Understandably, people want blood NOW, but who's? The only way thet'll get to Osama Bin Laden is to exert maximum pressure on the Taliban to extradite the guy - the Taliban may not be our idea of ideal party guests, but they DO believe strongly in terms of justice - Bin Laden is making them look fairly ridiculous at the moment.

Much more concerning to me are the pictures we see from the West Bank and the Gaza strip in Palestine/Israel. Here we are dealing with individuals who think what has happened is a good thing - something that should be celebrated. Something really needs to be done with this - a ready supply of brainwashed, indoctrinated, illiterate savages is where the problem lies. These people have been bred to beleive that their god will honour them if they exhibit extreme hatred to any Jew/Western civilised persons. Fix that, and we may see an end to this. Don't, and thing WILL get worse.

Does anybody suppose that these people would NOT use a Nuke if they had one?

My rant
j

WREXY

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Neil Smalley:
<B>

The effects will be greater survelliance, more restriction on movement and a loss of individual's rights. This is the scarist part of what is going on. That govts will use terrorism as an excuse to control their populations...

[/quote]

I totally agree with Niel here. This is the main thing that will come out of this. They have the best excuse now. Say bye bye to freedom.

Wrexy


[This message has been edited by WREXY (edited 12 September 2001).]

Sam Elassar

jim
you need to get things into prospective here. the palestinians are celebrating because they are some helpless people whose land ha been occupied for the 1948.the get 10s of their women and childern killed every day by isreali military every day and they have lost thousands by now. they are numb with pain. isreal is back by the US, they know that there is nothing they can do. so they probably see some justice for them all in this. but this is because they are in a bad situation them selves so don't expect their sympathy. so they are a bit niave really.

BarryK

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jimbob2:
<B>

Something really needs to be done with this - a ready supply of brainwashed, indoctrinated, illiterate savages is where the problem lies.

[/quote]

And in Ireland the reason for terrorism would be..........



[This message has been edited by BarryK (edited 12 September 2001).]

fast bloke

[FB puts BarryK right back at the top of the hitlist]

TopCat

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sam Elassar:
<B>jim
you need to get things into prospective here. the palestinians are celebrating because they are some helpless people whose land ha been occupied for the 1948.the get 10s of their women and childern killed every day by isreali military every day and they have lost thousands by now. they are numb with pain. isreal is back by the US, they know that there is nothing they can do. so they probably see some justice for them all in this. but this is because they are in a bad situation them selves so don't expect their sympathy. so they are a bit niave really.[/quote]

I agree with you Sam 100% on this point and the one before.

Rgds

M

fast bloke

Top cat - Sam - nice too see that someone else can look at both sides of the equation