Rebecca

I am about to upgrade my brakes on my MY97 car with 4 pots from a MY01.

What I need to know is about brake fluid and hoses. Do I need to upgrade them. If so ...

1. Why?

2. What with? What do I get?
(NB: the brakes are being fitted at a Subaru garage)

3. If I don't what's likely to happen if anything?

Thanks.

And before anyone says why isn't this in the brakes forum .... it's cos people are more likely to look here than they are in the brakes forum

[This message has been edited by Rebecca (edited 23 August 2001).]

Neil Smalley

If you uprate the brake hoses from the rubber ones to steel braided, you'll be able to apply more braking pressure because the steel ones won't flex as much as the plastic ones.

Think of a liquid inside of a rubber tube and put it under pressure. What happens? It will start to bulge and you'll reduce the force available to you. Now try it with a metal hose. What happens? It bulges much less, therefore more pressure.

Better brake fluid such a 5.1 has a higher boiling point and so will be able to transfer heat better.

Expect to by about 60 quid for hoses and 10 quid for brake fluid.

I'm probably wrong in my descriptions but that's what i've been led to believe. I'm sure John felstead or SDB will come up with some maths to prove it beyond doubt but i'm still a layman at this.

All big brake kits come with hoses and fluid( ) You might like to think about a brake support bracket too, this stops the servo flexing under pressure and helps feel, again about 60 quid.

[This message has been edited by Neil Smalley (edited 23 August 2001).]

mutant_matt

Bex,

I don't wanna rain on your parade but I have to say the upgrading to the Subaru 4 pots seems to be a bit of a waste of time....

I think that these are the same as the brakes on the MY00 (which I've got) and they are not that great - in fact I won't put my car on the track until I've upgraded them!!!!! (I know you put your car on the track which was why I mentioned it....)

It might be more cost effective to go straight to something better than the Scoob brakes - there's a wealth of choice out there....

Just a thought (trying to be helpful (honest)),

Matt

Rebecca

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by mutant_matt:
<B>Bex,

I don't wanna rain on your parade but I have to say the upgrading to the Subaru 4 pots seems to be a bit of a waste of time....

I think that these are the same as the brakes on the MY00 (which I've got) and they are not that great - in fact I won't put my car on the track until I've upgraded them!!!!! (I know you put your car on the track which was why I mentioned it....)

It might be more cost effective to go straight to something better than the Scoob brakes - there's a wealth of choice out there....

Just a thought (trying to be helpful (honest)),

Matt [/quote]

It's a thought that had crossed my mind Matt ... why was everyone with MY01 cars etc getting rid of their 4 pots ....

My problem is cost .... I would kill for APs or Brembos ... 6pots etc .... but just can't afford it .... and thought that at least the 4 pots would tide me over until in the dim distant future I could afford better brakes ... especially as I take my car on track ....


anybody else got any thoughts about this ... am I doing the right thing or not???

any help will really be gratefully received ....

DT

I've got a MY01 and the brakes are ok. However, as with everything else;lights, exhausts, suspension, filters, ECU's everyone wants better. I'm no expert but I assume this is the reason for most changes.

Now, being very naive, MY01's are 4 pots, Brembo's are 4 pots. If I kept the calipers and got bigger discs, better pads, steel hoses, fluid etc, would I get almost as good result for much less money?? Does the caliper itself make that much difference?

If I did this route what would I buy? Sorry to post out of forum but Rebecca started it

Neil Smalley

Difficult to say Bex, Standard 4 pots will be ok for track work IF
1. You don't stay out too long
2. You allow them to cool down properly
3. you budget for replacing disks and pads more frequently
4. You don't do many track days.

Big brakes AP/Brembo etc will stop you quicker, allow you to stay out longer, have shorter cool down periods and are harder wearing.

Offset that against the fact that consumables for big brakes are nearly twice the price of standard discs/pads.

You can use standard brakes for track use, but be prepared to come in at the slightest sign of overheating and fade. And also make sure you have a spare set of pads/discs so they can changed on the day, should you need to be able to get home.

Dave T-S

Bex

I had a MY00 with standard 4 pots, and gave it a bit of a pasting at Bedford in May.

I am generally very light on my brakes anyway, and they were *adequate* - but they only remained adequate because I knew they were liable to fade and was deliberately gentle on them - I was deliberately chucking it in the tighter bends sideways because a four wheel slide is 1) easier on the brakes, and 2) more fun......

4 pots are better than 2 pots, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are adequate, because the 2 pots were feeble in the first place - it's all relative.

Suffice to say that my MY01 will be going on track, and last week I put AP 6 pots on.....

As you say however, it's a cost issue. The best value for money option to give you a set of stoppers that will actually work on track would probably be to go for Subaru 4 pot calipers but with uprated discs and decent pads such as Scoobysport's Pagid option. It also depends what wheels you are on (16's?) as to what calipers/discs you can get under them.

If you go for a standard Subaru 4 pot setup and are going to be using it on track at least fairly regularly then it is only a matter of time before you will want to junk them too....

Dave T-S

DT

The caliper is all about clamping pressures, pad area and heat dissipation.

The Brembo calipers will walk all over the Subaru calipers in both respects.

Neil

Consumables - a set of Pagid replacement pads for my AP's are £258.....

Neil Smalley

Dave said "If you go for a standard Subaru 4 pot setup and are going to be using it on track at least fairly regularly then it is only a matter of time before you will want to junk them too.... "

That's what I thought. I could either spend 500 quid now for a set up i'd want to change later at a another cost of 1500 quid.

OR wait for a second hand big brake setup to become available and get that. That's how I got my AP 6 pots for 800 quid.

If you are only going to do 2/3 track days a year, can be easy on brakes then standards are fine.

So to sum up, for an ever confused bex?

Std 4 pots. OK for road use, bare minimum for light track use. Cost about 500 quid

Std 4 pots with discs. Ok for road use, acceptable for light track use. BUT you will want to change them before long. Cost around £500 on top of 2 to 4 pot conversion

AP/Brembo 4 pots, best compromise between road and track, expensive consumables. ~1400 quid

AP 6 pots, Only a brick wall will stop you quicker. Second mortgage required for running costs. Need 17" wheels. ~1900 quid, plus 1000 quid for wheels.

So IF bex spends 1000 quid on 4 pots and uprated disks she'll want to spend another 1500 quid on AP/brembo's etc(yes you will, Bex honest).

Since money is tight, go for standard 4 pots. See how you go. THEN use the money you saved by not buying new discs and pads to go towards bigger brakes when you can afford it. If you wait for a set to appear second hand you'll only have to pay half the cost of a new set.


Dave,
I *know* how much pads are for AP brakes Just waiting for that bill to hit sometime. Good job i've a spare set of discs. They cost about 450 quid a pair

Hey, another rambling neil novel

[This message has been edited by Neil Smalley (edited 23 August 2001).]

Dave T-S

Neil

Hi M8

The only consolation with the AP Pagid pads is that Pete tells me they are long lasting.....they might not be, when I get the Link on LOL

Bex
There are other alternative good value for money brakes such as Hi spec, Wilwood, KAD (and some inadequate ones which I SHAN'T mention here...) but like most other things you gets what you pays for, and the Scoobysport AP disc/Brembo caliper setup is probably the best in the long run.

Pads are another minefield - there are some shocking wear rates on some *performance* pads - like I know of some who have totally killed a set of pads on one track day for example.

DT

Thanks Dave, Neil,
seems you've saved me some money short term and cost me a fortune long term!!!

Given the cost of consumables, isn't it risky to buy off the net? If pads disks are part worn it could cost a bomb in the near future?

TonyNesta

Whatever brakes you go for, PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU GET THE STEEL BRAKE LINES SHROUDED ! Plastic sleeve will do, and will stop them chafing against any bodywork, other brake components etc. I found out the hard way, as my brake lines chafed and then split, meaning replacements were required.

Dave T-S

DT
Sorry about that!

If you are buying s/h brake parts, you do have to be careful. Ideally buy from someone you know and trust.....disc/pad wear will be readily apparent. Biggest potential problem is warped discs - Neil should be ok - pretty difficult to do this to AP 6 pots....

Neil Smalley

I bought the brakes from a dealer, who had taken them from a car which was being sold by them. The owner of the car had a reciept which showed the brakes being fitted 2000 odd mile ago. I bought new disks (from new age ) ) as the ones that came with it were crossed drilled rather than solid. The pads had little wear on them.

So I mitigated the risk to me by buying from a dealer(I know no warranty but at least they are in the position to help) AND buying new discs. I also had them give thier opinion on the discs, pads and calipers. Again to mitigate risk to myself.

Usually i'd steer clear of second hand brakes, unless it was from a dealer or someone I really trusted.

SecretAgentMan

There's something fishy with the UK price on Pagid Blues for the AP calipers...

I just bought a set of them for my 4-pots at just a smidge above 110 squid. (They're AMAZING)

Anyone wanna do business?



/J

Dave T-S

Not with you, you dodgy old turniphead

PS - how are ya?

JFB

Interesting, nobody mentioned Godspeed's kit.
Mine's being fitted on Saturday the big drilled & grooved discs on the front, something similar on the rear, new pads all round, stripping, cleaning and spraying the existing four pot calipers & rears MY00. RON was happy with his as mentioned on the BBS last week so worthy of consideration at least.

Jerome

SecretAgentMan

U know U want Pagids Dave U old farmer-looking geezer U. Oh...have U sorted the AP's yet then?

Still trying to get some speed outta those scaredy-rabbity-lookin cars?

I'm great mate, thnx, U?

Carolyn's still putting up with U?



Cheers

/J

Pagid blues RULE with AP's. Esp. when they've cost U 110.

EvilBevel

Dave, things may be confusing, but in the end, you can only present a few options, mention the piftalls, and hope the buyer is more informed than before.

But then, if she is anything like us, she will buy what she wants to anyway.

I know that when I want to buy something, I'll do it anyway, even if the whole world is confusing me or telling me not to

The final deciding factor may be the color of the calipers or whatever or the sexy yellow AP logo.

I know that was the deciding factor when I bought the Alcons, so this is not meant as a sexist remark

Total cost of modding ... hmmm, let's not go there.

Theo

Dave T-S

/J

Hi M8

AP 6 pots on last Saturday, along with decat turbo up-pipe... - the fugly bugeyes are coming along nicely

BTW, those Pagid blues ya got - wonder why they were so cheap??.......standard pads plus a blue spray paint

There's a turniphead born every day LOL.....

Stay lucky

EvilBevel

OK, back to the topic at hand

Rebecca, I already briefly did this in chat, but let me try to elaborate.

First of all, I myself was always buying "halfway", wanting the "real" stuff anyway, so ending up paying far more than needed for the "real" stuff.

So if you say "I want good/killer brakes", then IMHO you should not try the Subaru 4pots - later on other discs - route.

Trackdays aside, I have felt myself that they will fade in one single braking application if you are doing higher speeds (Autobahn). Not a pleasant feeling.

So I would advice going for AP, Brembo, Alcon, or others mentioned in this thread.

HOWEVER ... "modding" your car is an expensive and endless excercise ... Say you save a bit more, and go for AP 6 pots... hmmm, need 17" alloys. OK, you buy them, all great, but ... hmmm, the car dives like a kangeroo while braking ... rear becomes very light ... hmmm, need stiffer suspension / anti-lift kit etc... oh it brakes soooo well now I almost fall out of the seat: enter better seat / racing harnass ...

Then comes the day your better brakes *will* need new discs, and surprisingly, they are not very cheap. The car becomes a money pit...

I'm not trying to put you off, just a little warning that it can get very expensive very fast.

Also, despite what you read here and there, your total braking distance will not change very much, unless you add slicks to the bill. Your tyres will give up long before the brakes do. So consistent braking without fade (they will eventually when pushed hard enough BTW ...) is what you are buying with your hard earned. That and possibly a better feel in your brake pedal, so you can judge being on the limit of lockup with more ease.

Having said all this: don't fall for the "marketing" pots, and if you still want to go ahead after all the drivel above go for the AP 4 pot kit that fits 16" wheels, and make sure you put some uprated pads at the rear (you may need to experiment, but DS2000 works great for me) so to not change the front/rear braking bias too much.

But if the money thing scares you away ... try to drive your car to the limits it was built for. Be gentle on the brakes, and learn the techniques to not overcook them. And if they let go, go into the pits, and think about all the money you saved while still having fun

Hope this helps,

Theo

Neil Smalley

Bex,

Sage advice from Theo

If you can go for std 4 pots get them, and see how you go.

Modding is a very slippery slope. As i've found out . You can easily almost double the cost of the car by putting on the 'best' mods. Is'nt that right Dave-TS

Dave T-S

Theo
You speak wisely my man - personally, I blame Pete Croney for everything......

Neil
Cost of mods? - dunno M8, i'll let you know, if I ever finish them

Bex
I bet this has all put you in even more of a quandary about what to do....

Dave T-S

Theo

LOL

You didn't catch me buying the AP's instead of the Brembos, against advice, just because the disc is 25mm bigger diameter.....

Dave T-S

Theo

LOL

You didn't catch me buying the AP's instead of the Brembos, against advice, just because the disc is 25mm bigger diameter.....

Dave T-S

Theo

LOL

You didn't catch me buying the AP's instead of the Brembos, against advice, just because the disc is 25mm bigger diameter.....

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Hiya Rebecca
Im just going down this road now, replacing my subaru 4 pots with Brembo 4 pots however much i may want 6 pots they are not really the sort of thing i need for the type of driving i do
The Subaru 4 pots aint actually that bad IF as Theo says you learn the tecniques for braking ie dont go dead hard into a corner, try a more gentle approach, you wont loose as much time as you think
The down side to the subaru 4pots is your going to be restricted to the size of your discs 294mm on the front as standard but better than the 2pots! Brake lines are a must!! and later on if you feel like it upgrade the lot again or just put some grp n discs on there but they aint cheap at over 500 quid inc vat plus braided lines and pads (pads are 120quid a pair!!)
You will notice a definate difference though Rebecca but add the hoses and dot 5.1 or better

Tony

PS, look out in the private section, they go quickly!! (mine were gone in under 2hrs!! )

Davvers

For reasonably priced Pagid Pads - excellent service, save my bacon before recent trip - no connection other then happy customer etc

Performance Braking Ltd
Contact:
Mr. John Freeth
Address:
Singleton Court Business Centre, Wonastow Road
Monmouth, Monmouthshire
NP25 5JA
United Kingdom
Phone: 01600 713117
Fax: 01600 772561
Email: sales@performance-braking.co.uk

Rebecca

Thanks to everyone ... particularly Theo, Neil, Dave T-S, Matt and anyone I've forgotten who's managed to leave me more confused than before I started ....

I think the only answer .... is to win the lottery or find a very rich boyfriend

Neil Smalley

Bex,

In your case you have 2 pot brakes, the move to standard 4 pots is probably the most cost effective one you can make at the moment.

As Theo says, learn to drive around your brakes and save your money. THEN when/if you do go for the track brakes option, you'll be a better driver than you would have been and therefore be able to get better use of the track brakes. The net result being faster and safer around track.

It's not confusing. Buy the best you can afford and see how you go. If that's buy nothing and save, then do that.