Spy In The Camp?
21 August 2001, 12:03 AM
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So you can buy a Subaru, "advertised" as a performance car, but you can not drive it like one! What a load of bollocks. The more I read this board the more I am put off ever getting one!
21 August 2001, 11:59 AM
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I had an interesting conversation yesterday with a Subaru owner.
His car is just out of warranty, done less than average miles and has a full dealer service history. But the engine went bang - piston failure. Took it to his local dealer who sold him the car and does all the work on it. It needs a new short block, they will put a claim into Subaru UK as a good will gesture. So far so good, and it seems fair.
But, he received a letter back the other day, they wouldn't honour his claim, as they have video evidence of his car being used for "a timed speed event".
Now he has had his car on the track at Knockhill and also taken part in 1/4 mile sprints at Crail.
Fair enough, but video evidence !!!
Do we have someone going around visiting SIDC track days, secretly filming us all for "evidence"
A bit ironic when lots of dealers hold track days themselves for their customers.
So from now on cover up the number plates and tax disc, and wear a disguise, when at track days.
David
His car is just out of warranty, done less than average miles and has a full dealer service history. But the engine went bang - piston failure. Took it to his local dealer who sold him the car and does all the work on it. It needs a new short block, they will put a claim into Subaru UK as a good will gesture. So far so good, and it seems fair.
But, he received a letter back the other day, they wouldn't honour his claim, as they have video evidence of his car being used for "a timed speed event".
Now he has had his car on the track at Knockhill and also taken part in 1/4 mile sprints at Crail.
Fair enough, but video evidence !!!
Do we have someone going around visiting SIDC track days, secretly filming us all for "evidence"
A bit ironic when lots of dealers hold track days themselves for their customers.
So from now on cover up the number plates and tax disc, and wear a disguise, when at track days.
David
21 August 2001, 01:00 PM
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Get him to check the terms of the warranty, ask for proof in terms of the video.
IM Are really messing up at the moment IMHO.
Not servincing imports.
Being **** retentive about EEC import claims
Get him to write a letter directly to the MD of subaru in the UK, threatening to go public on thier failure to honour a warranty that would fall within their policy. Several BBS members have had replacement engines/clutches etc even though they have been on track.
Get him to find out If anyone can give a case study where engine warranty's have been performed when the cars been on track. Use this as proof to increase his case and provide precedence.
What about track days organised by dealers? are IM saying that our dealers can organise a track day, but if it goes wrong at that track day we're not covering it.
It was noted at the recent bedford track day a few unknowns were wandering around videoing cars, drivers and track performance.
Just my 2p
IM Are really messing up at the moment IMHO.
Not servincing imports.
Being **** retentive about EEC import claims
Get him to write a letter directly to the MD of subaru in the UK, threatening to go public on thier failure to honour a warranty that would fall within their policy. Several BBS members have had replacement engines/clutches etc even though they have been on track.
Get him to find out If anyone can give a case study where engine warranty's have been performed when the cars been on track. Use this as proof to increase his case and provide precedence.
What about track days organised by dealers? are IM saying that our dealers can organise a track day, but if it goes wrong at that track day we're not covering it.
It was noted at the recent bedford track day a few unknowns were wandering around videoing cars, drivers and track performance.
Just my 2p
21 August 2001, 01:04 PM
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Motorbike insurance companies have been turning up at bike track days for years following the folk that bin it on track days, then unload it out of a trannie van on the way home so they can claim on there insurance.
It doesn't surprise me if its now being carried through to cars.
Wonder how long before subaru uk start monitoring boards like this to see who's attending track days...........
It doesn't surprise me if its now being carried through to cars.
Wonder how long before subaru uk start monitoring boards like this to see who's attending track days...........
21 August 2001, 01:13 PM
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As that Helen girl from 'Big Bro' would say 'OH MY GOD!!!!'
Just a thought.........
How do Subaru (or any other company for that matter)get their figures for 0-60 times for the glossy sales brochers?? Do they run the car on test track? Or do they just pluck a number out of thin air?
Just a thought
Just a thought.........
How do Subaru (or any other company for that matter)get their figures for 0-60 times for the glossy sales brochers?? Do they run the car on test track? Or do they just pluck a number out of thin air?
Just a thought
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21 August 2001, 01:21 PM
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I was at the Croft Mitsubishi Track day and was talking to a guy from Ralliart and the topic of Warranties & track days came up.
He said that they are o.k. with it as long as you don't take the P***, there was one guy there he mentioned that had and EVO6 that he'd taken to many garages making claims on the warranty.
That was well out of order he said..
If you tak good care of your car and you have the opportunity to take it on the track and want to experience the cars abilities why should you be penalised.
I must say that saying "We have Video evidence is a bit extreme" After all they sell the blooming on the back of their reputation in the Rally arena where they don't exactly hang about do they...
Subaru.. You shame me at times
O.M.
[This message has been edited by Octane Man (edited 21 August 2001).]
He said that they are o.k. with it as long as you don't take the P***, there was one guy there he mentioned that had and EVO6 that he'd taken to many garages making claims on the warranty.
That was well out of order he said..
If you tak good care of your car and you have the opportunity to take it on the track and want to experience the cars abilities why should you be penalised.
I must say that saying "We have Video evidence is a bit extreme" After all they sell the blooming on the back of their reputation in the Rally arena where they don't exactly hang about do they...
Subaru.. You shame me at times
O.M.
[This message has been edited by Octane Man (edited 21 August 2001).]
21 August 2001, 01:22 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by ptholt:
<B>Motorbike insurance companies have been turning up at bike track days for years following the folk that bin it on track days, then unload it out of a trannie van on the way home so they can claim on there insurance.
It doesn't surprise me if its now being carried through to cars.
Wonder how long before subaru uk start monitoring boards like this to see who's attending track days...........[/quote]
Hi Subaru UK - My Name is Steve whats a track day?
<B>Motorbike insurance companies have been turning up at bike track days for years following the folk that bin it on track days, then unload it out of a trannie van on the way home so they can claim on there insurance.
It doesn't surprise me if its now being carried through to cars.
Wonder how long before subaru uk start monitoring boards like this to see who's attending track days...........[/quote]
Hi Subaru UK - My Name is Steve whats a track day?
21 August 2001, 01:26 PM
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Whoa. Hold on a mo. Even handed head on for a minute. I spotted the phrase "his car is just out of warranty".
Now, all of you doing the slagging, picture yourself standing up in court saying what you have just said.
How dumb would you look?
To anybody outside this community, they would say "Subaru" have been more than generous in even considering a claim outside of warranty and that their stance is entirely reasonable.
You can't have your cake and eat it chaps. I do believe the warranty booklet clearly explains when the terms of the warranty will be voided, and how long it lasts.
I know a bloke who had this fixed under the similar terms. He didn't do track days etc. and breathed a sigh of relief to save £1400 or whatever the bill was. But went off and bought a Ford!!!
Let's just say it was you who was forking out for the repairs to someone else's car which involved fixing their back brakes coz they were prematurely worn. Then you discovered that they drove everywhere with the hand brake on. That wouldn't bother you would it? You'd divvy up quite happily?
Yeah right.
"Put off ever getting one". Mate, don't ever buy a car. If you speak to owners of every make and model they are a complete illness and drain on your pocket.
Then again, they keep buying them.
Now, all of you doing the slagging, picture yourself standing up in court saying what you have just said.
How dumb would you look?
To anybody outside this community, they would say "Subaru" have been more than generous in even considering a claim outside of warranty and that their stance is entirely reasonable.
You can't have your cake and eat it chaps. I do believe the warranty booklet clearly explains when the terms of the warranty will be voided, and how long it lasts.
I know a bloke who had this fixed under the similar terms. He didn't do track days etc. and breathed a sigh of relief to save £1400 or whatever the bill was. But went off and bought a Ford!!!
Let's just say it was you who was forking out for the repairs to someone else's car which involved fixing their back brakes coz they were prematurely worn. Then you discovered that they drove everywhere with the hand brake on. That wouldn't bother you would it? You'd divvy up quite happily?
Yeah right.
"Put off ever getting one". Mate, don't ever buy a car. If you speak to owners of every make and model they are a complete illness and drain on your pocket.
Then again, they keep buying them.
21 August 2001, 01:37 PM
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I missed the out of warranty bit as well
I still think a good will gesture would'nt go amiss, because the car has done low mileage. A 50/50 split maybe?
My other comments on IM and imports still stand IMHO
I still think a good will gesture would'nt go amiss, because the car has done low mileage. A 50/50 split maybe?
My other comments on IM and imports still stand IMHO
21 August 2001, 01:45 PM
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Well said Barry.
The fact of the matter is, the terms of the contract state that participating in timed events will negate your warrenty (as far as I know), so you make the decisions from then on.
As Barry said, the mere fact that they were considering putting this through the warrenty is a show of tremendous support in a world where most companies do everything they can to get out of paying for anything.
It's easy to look at the glass and say it's half empty.
On video evidence front. There are hours and hours of video taken by all sorts of people at track days. Some of this goes onto the net. It would be easy for IM to protect their own interests from the people who break the contract by taking copies and noting registration numbers.
In any case.. I don't *think* this refered to a track day, as track days are normally not timed?
Let's be a little more positive about the good side rather than picking on the negatives (which in this case were merely a fact of the contract, not an unwarrented action by IM).
All the best
Simon
The fact of the matter is, the terms of the contract state that participating in timed events will negate your warrenty (as far as I know), so you make the decisions from then on.
As Barry said, the mere fact that they were considering putting this through the warrenty is a show of tremendous support in a world where most companies do everything they can to get out of paying for anything.
It's easy to look at the glass and say it's half empty.
On video evidence front. There are hours and hours of video taken by all sorts of people at track days. Some of this goes onto the net. It would be easy for IM to protect their own interests from the people who break the contract by taking copies and noting registration numbers.
In any case.. I don't *think* this refered to a track day, as track days are normally not timed?
Let's be a little more positive about the good side rather than picking on the negatives (which in this case were merely a fact of the contract, not an unwarrented action by IM).
All the best
Simon
21 August 2001, 01:47 PM
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Agreed that if it was out of warranty it was out of warranty....but the motor industry in general has a long way to go in respect of customer service. Most industries now days would take a more pragmatic view and say well it is not unreasonable to expect a modern engine to do 100K miles if it has been reasonably well looked after so we will do a deal to keep the customer happy. Also take a global branding view.
Maybe one day the motor trade will catch up?
Maybe one day the motor trade will catch up?
21 August 2001, 02:46 PM
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'Timed speed event' must be at Crail and not Knockhill. TRack days aren't timed so even when dealerships run their own they aren't breaking warranty T&Cs.
---john---
---john---
21 August 2001, 03:35 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Simon de Banke:
<B>blubell
that is true.. but
if they were to do that, it would be a big positive thing..
this does not mean that they should be slated for merely keeping to their word.[/quote]
Simon
Where I come from it is generally recognised that you need to exceed customer expectation.
Only car dealers that have come anywhere near close have been HR Owen (Porsche) but then again if you ahve paid £2500 for an exhaust you do expect it to be rattle free!
<B>blubell
that is true.. but
if they were to do that, it would be a big positive thing..
this does not mean that they should be slated for merely keeping to their word.[/quote]
Simon
Where I come from it is generally recognised that you need to exceed customer expectation.
Only car dealers that have come anywhere near close have been HR Owen (Porsche) but then again if you ahve paid £2500 for an exhaust you do expect it to be rattle free!
21 August 2001, 04:06 PM
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I'm with Simon and BarryK on this.
There are two issues which count against the owner.
1) The car was out of warranty
2) The owner had participated in timed events thus invalidating in any warranty he may have been entitled too.
Whether you agree with the warranty rules is neither here nor there. They're in black and white for all to read.
I guess the bit that smarted was that the owner thought they were going to get their car fixed as a favour by the dealer, then got turned down.
These cars aren't indestructible, sure manufacturers play on the back of their rally/race success but <B>they are not rally cars</B> and will break if used hard (as do rally cars).
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Bluebell said:
Where I come from it is generally recognised that you need to exceed customer expectation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sure, but where do you draw the line ?
If word gets out (like it does on the 'net) that you can time trial/enter rallies in your Impreza out of warranty and still get it repaired... then IM will be inundated.
There's exceeding customer expectations, and then there's taking the p1ss.
[This message has been edited by DavidBrown (edited 21 August 2001).]
There are two issues which count against the owner.
1) The car was out of warranty
2) The owner had participated in timed events thus invalidating in any warranty he may have been entitled too.
Whether you agree with the warranty rules is neither here nor there. They're in black and white for all to read.
I guess the bit that smarted was that the owner thought they were going to get their car fixed as a favour by the dealer, then got turned down.
These cars aren't indestructible, sure manufacturers play on the back of their rally/race success but <B>they are not rally cars</B> and will break if used hard (as do rally cars).
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Bluebell said:
Where I come from it is generally recognised that you need to exceed customer expectation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sure, but where do you draw the line ?
If word gets out (like it does on the 'net) that you can time trial/enter rallies in your Impreza out of warranty and still get it repaired... then IM will be inundated.
There's exceeding customer expectations, and then there's taking the p1ss.
[This message has been edited by DavidBrown (edited 21 August 2001).]
21 August 2001, 04:36 PM
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Let me guess that the aformentioned car is an MY98???
Just out of warranty..... makes it 3 yrs old....
Ok, timed events.... even so an engine should still last a damn long time if its treated correctly to get it to its correct operating temperature and MY98's are more often than not "prone" to piston failure
And maybe one day IM may see this and come to some arrangement, as one person said, 50/50 split...
Tony
Just out of warranty..... makes it 3 yrs old....
Ok, timed events.... even so an engine should still last a damn long time if its treated correctly to get it to its correct operating temperature and MY98's are more often than not "prone" to piston failure
And maybe one day IM may see this and come to some arrangement, as one person said, 50/50 split...
Tony
21 August 2001, 06:29 PM
#21
Fully agree with comments by Barry, Simon and David.
However, I am told by a local dealer that they have on more than one occasion been authorised to fix piston slap on out of warranty vehicles. One had covered over 60k and the work was approved because it was a recognised fault. Spose it depends how bad the piston is.
And, casually enquiring about the validity of warranty on a prominent Listers "demonstrator" I was assured that if it was appropriately serviced there would be no question of a void warranty.
Wouldn't want to be the one to test it with a claim
However, I am told by a local dealer that they have on more than one occasion been authorised to fix piston slap on out of warranty vehicles. One had covered over 60k and the work was approved because it was a recognised fault. Spose it depends how bad the piston is.
And, casually enquiring about the validity of warranty on a prominent Listers "demonstrator" I was assured that if it was appropriately serviced there would be no question of a void warranty.
Wouldn't want to be the one to test it with a claim
21 August 2001, 07:01 PM
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Another hot one !
Page 3 of the service book states
<B>What is not covered</B>
A. Defects, malfunctions or failures resulting from misuse (e.g. overloading, rallying or racing) speed trials, negligence, modification, alteration, tampering, disconnection, improper adjustments or repairs, accidents, ..........., improper maintenance or use of fuels, oils and/or lubricants other than those recommended.
To my mind that’s black and white except the first part. A track day is not racing or rallying, or speed trials, but is it misuse?
I would say until IM issues some kind of ruling, individual owners should seek conformation from IM weather or not they consider a normal track day like Bedford misuse. Any kind of timed event or race is misuse as stated above.
Changing your oil/filter before and after such an event may help strengthen your argument, but get it in writing.
David
Page 3 of the service book states
<B>What is not covered</B>
A. Defects, malfunctions or failures resulting from misuse (e.g. overloading, rallying or racing) speed trials, negligence, modification, alteration, tampering, disconnection, improper adjustments or repairs, accidents, ..........., improper maintenance or use of fuels, oils and/or lubricants other than those recommended.
To my mind that’s black and white except the first part. A track day is not racing or rallying, or speed trials, but is it misuse?
I would say until IM issues some kind of ruling, individual owners should seek conformation from IM weather or not they consider a normal track day like Bedford misuse. Any kind of timed event or race is misuse as stated above.
Changing your oil/filter before and after such an event may help strengthen your argument, but get it in writing.
David
21 August 2001, 08:21 PM
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I think that IM probably are doing some "covert operations". I wonder if they are infringing the law in this respect - any lawers out there ?
My experience of dealerships is that they
have pretty limited mecanical understanding anyway, and that you are probably better off with a specialist, warranty notwithstanding.
I am almost certain they monitor the BBS, along with the insurance companies.
Si James
With a bog standard unmodified car that has never seen a track, and which is never subjected to abnormal loads etc etc etc.
21 August 2001, 08:44 PM
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I had to laugh! Last year i took the Impreza into SG Petch's in Richmond with a noisey turbo and slight loss of power that became more noticable above 4500rpm.
The service manager at Petch's said:
"its no wonder the thing is making noises if you drive it above 4500rpm, they're not supposed to be driven like that!"
Needless to say I was not impressed!
Id never buy a car from the IM Group anymore, they are... well I'll let you fillin the gaps cos i dont want to get myself in trouble!!!
[This message has been edited by Jamie Whitfield (edited 21 August 2001).]
The service manager at Petch's said:
"its no wonder the thing is making noises if you drive it above 4500rpm, they're not supposed to be driven like that!"
Needless to say I was not impressed!
Id never buy a car from the IM Group anymore, they are... well I'll let you fillin the gaps cos i dont want to get myself in trouble!!!
[This message has been edited by Jamie Whitfield (edited 21 August 2001).]
21 August 2001, 10:10 PM
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if you think that IM have video evidence of you; you are perfectly entitled under the data protection act to ask for a copy and ensure their records are up to date.
you can even do this with CCTV cameras you happen to walk past. there is a whole bunch of people using this legal right to get CCTV footage on their way to m&s shopping. The police send you the whole tape with 4 cameras on it. your very own ITV docusoap.
rapiddescent
my01 wrx
you can even do this with CCTV cameras you happen to walk past. there is a whole bunch of people using this legal right to get CCTV footage on their way to m&s shopping. The police send you the whole tape with 4 cameras on it. your very own ITV docusoap.
rapiddescent
my01 wrx
21 August 2001, 10:26 PM
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Oh yes the Data Protection Act. Also the Human Rights Act might be used. In Scotland there is possibly a trespass offence too.
Not sure about the DPA and analogue images, will have to check this out.
I think there are privacy laws relating to the "public interest" too........
The whole area is a minefield and a potentially very costly nightmare for IM if ever they encounter a litigious invividual. Just imagine the negative publicity too, the mind boggles.
"The Backroom Lawer"
Not sure about the DPA and analogue images, will have to check this out.
I think there are privacy laws relating to the "public interest" too........
The whole area is a minefield and a potentially very costly nightmare for IM if ever they encounter a litigious invividual. Just imagine the negative publicity too, the mind boggles.
"The Backroom Lawer"
21 August 2001, 10:31 PM
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All very well getting video footage of yourself, but the owners of the data are entitled to make a 'reasonable' charge for extracting the stuff that's pertinent to you. I think the DPA sets the maximum for this to be £10, and you are only allowed to ask for it once in a defined period (which I think is either one year or two years).
21 August 2001, 11:41 PM
#30
You lot surprise me enormously.
It's common knowledge that IM, Prodrive and Subaru dealers nationwide monitor this BBS.
They would be a bunch of incompetents if they didnt with the vast marketing information they can gain from this.
We had a thread on here about 12 months ago that had some good input from Dave Wood at prodrive explaining what IM and prodrive would and wouldnt cover under waranty and also there phylosophy on track days and customer demonstration runs on track held by dealers.
Maybe simon could dig this one out, i dont have the time right now.
It's common knowledge that IM, Prodrive and Subaru dealers nationwide monitor this BBS.
They would be a bunch of incompetents if they didnt with the vast marketing information they can gain from this.
We had a thread on here about 12 months ago that had some good input from Dave Wood at prodrive explaining what IM and prodrive would and wouldnt cover under waranty and also there phylosophy on track days and customer demonstration runs on track held by dealers.
Maybe simon could dig this one out, i dont have the time right now.