Autocar's "best handling car"...
09 March 2002, 06:16 PM
#1
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1 - Murcielago
2 - Porsche Boxster
3 - Focus RS
4 - Lotus Elise
5 - NSX
6 - SL55 AMG
7 - Porsche 996 C2
8 - Impreza STI
9 - TVR Tamora
10 - Clio Cup
But it Top Gear, Clarkson still prefers the standard bug-eyed impreza. It seems that the RS has a problem with B-roads, the home of our scooby. So if the test is heavly based in track performance the RS has a good advantage, where the 4WD and extra weight of the scooby will not do him any favours.
http://www.topgear.beeb.com/content/...1052&man_id=B4
[Edited by Evil_Scooby - 9/3/2002 6:17:16 PM]
09 April 2002, 09:36 AM
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Hi Simon,
did you have a chance to drive the RS on public roads?
cause Jeremy Clarckson liked the WRX better:
doesn't sound like a better driver's car but more a better track car...
[Edited by elondan - 9/4/2002 9:37:26 AM]
did you have a chance to drive the RS on public roads?
cause Jeremy Clarckson liked the WRX better:
However, on a B-road, things start to go awry. When the diff is fully loaded, the car tramlines like a *******. When it isn’t, there’s a looseness and in-between there’s torque steer. On twisty roads, you don’t drive it so much as manhandle it and hope for the best. Being kind, I’d call it hairy. Being honest, I’d call it scary
[Edited by elondan - 9/4/2002 9:37:26 AM]
09 April 2002, 10:58 AM
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thats not nice Rich seeing as though you are obviously an early ninties technology victim I thought you would have been into peace and love and all that other stuff!!!!!!
Exactly UXG.
[Edited by co55ie - 9/4/2002 10:59:15 AM]
Exactly UXG.
[Edited by co55ie - 9/4/2002 10:59:15 AM]
09 April 2002, 12:41 PM
#4
Fascinating article, but unfortunately I'm gonna start banging on about real life, if anyone's interested!
I live in the real world and I need a car with a good all round package. I went for a Scoob because at the time of buying I had a list of requirements:
1) F**king quick
2) Great handling for a driver with average ability - I don't want to wrap myself around a tree (don't test drive a Fiat Coupe, they are dangerous in the wrong hands)
3) Reliable with a 3 year warranty.
4) Needs 4/5 doors and a big boot for any future babies.
5) Can live with it day to day.
6) Under £25K price tag.
7) Needs to be backed up by a sh*t-hot BBS!!!!!!
I looked around for a year and went for an MY00 (now has a PPP).
This article relates to those of us who are fortunate enough to be able to purchase a second car for track days or do not have any responsibilities, etc. but how many of the cars on this list can stack up against my sad, 'real life' criteria listed above.
If anybody can come up with an alternative to a Scoobie, please reply, but I still haven't found one!! Try to keep the abuse to a minimum as I am a very fragile person!
W.
[Edited by Wuss - 9/4/2002 12:43:58 PM]
I live in the real world and I need a car with a good all round package. I went for a Scoob because at the time of buying I had a list of requirements:
1) F**king quick
2) Great handling for a driver with average ability - I don't want to wrap myself around a tree (don't test drive a Fiat Coupe, they are dangerous in the wrong hands)
3) Reliable with a 3 year warranty.
4) Needs 4/5 doors and a big boot for any future babies.
5) Can live with it day to day.
6) Under £25K price tag.
7) Needs to be backed up by a sh*t-hot BBS!!!!!!
I looked around for a year and went for an MY00 (now has a PPP).
This article relates to those of us who are fortunate enough to be able to purchase a second car for track days or do not have any responsibilities, etc. but how many of the cars on this list can stack up against my sad, 'real life' criteria listed above.
If anybody can come up with an alternative to a Scoobie, please reply, but I still haven't found one!! Try to keep the abuse to a minimum as I am a very fragile person!
W.
[Edited by Wuss - 9/4/2002 12:43:58 PM]
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03 September 2002, 01:14 PM
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There were 16 cars in the line up, so it came half way up. Was beaten by Murcielago, boxster, Focus RS, Elise. NSX, SL55,and 996 Porker. Not surprising really. Road and track were combined.
FYI it was only (read less than 1 second) slower than the Elise and the Boxster, and the Focus was a couple of seconds quicker. Some quicker cars, 575 maranello and TVR Tamora came in below the STI7
Matt
FYI it was only (read less than 1 second) slower than the Elise and the Boxster, and the Focus was a couple of seconds quicker. Some quicker cars, 575 maranello and TVR Tamora came in below the STI7
Matt
03 September 2002, 01:17 PM
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To quote Tiff Needell: "A simple, confidence-inspiring machine for the track day novice, but if you want real excitement, you'll have to move up to an Evo VII."
Usual story then.
Usual story then.
03 September 2002, 01:32 PM
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How come the RS came ahead of the STI?
What is it with "Autocar" and STIs?
ever since the STI4 Vs. EVO, the STI is always losing in Autocar, no matter which STI or against who...
What is it with "Autocar" and STIs?
ever since the STI4 Vs. EVO, the STI is always losing in Autocar, no matter which STI or against who...
03 September 2002, 01:39 PM
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How come the RS came higher ???? er ??? maybe it was a quicker car. It was always inevitable that the subarus crown would be knocked off its head at some point. The focus is said to be cracking - and as a front driver - even more amazing - god bless good LSDs.
As for the XTR2....
Our humble little XTR2 was six seconds a lap quicker
and that was running a restricted and catted busa engine (probably only 160).
Wait until our derestricted monster with race suspension, power commander mappable bike ECU, 100bhp dry nitrous and progressive controller (200bhp no nos and 290 with ) is ready....only a few weeks now (our SVA is 20th september). Oh and its 50kg lighter too which equates to a 15% increase in power-to-weight ratio even without the extra power we have 500bhp per tonne should be easily done.
Craig and I decided that a scooby is a compromise as a trackday car. The amount of cash you can spend on tyres, brakes, fuel and other wear and tear components is just plain crazy. Its worked out far cheaper to own the XTR2 and run a Golf PD150 as a daily driver. To gain 6-10 seconds a lap in a scooby would cost almost 1/2 the price of an XTR2. Unless of course you are a god-like driver
We could be totally wrong - but hey - we'll have fun finding out.
Ian.
As for the XTR2....
Our humble little XTR2 was six seconds a lap quicker
and that was running a restricted and catted busa engine (probably only 160). Wait until our derestricted monster with race suspension, power commander mappable bike ECU, 100bhp dry nitrous and progressive controller (200bhp no nos and 290 with
) is ready....only a few weeks now (our SVA is 20th september). Oh and its 50kg lighter too which equates to a 15% increase in power-to-weight ratio even without the extra power we have 500bhp per tonne should be easily done.Craig and I decided that a scooby is a compromise as a trackday car. The amount of cash you can spend on tyres, brakes, fuel and other wear and tear components is just plain crazy. Its worked out far cheaper to own the XTR2 and run a Golf PD150 as a daily driver. To gain 6-10 seconds a lap in a scooby would cost almost 1/2 the price of an XTR2. Unless of course you are a god-like driver
We could be totally wrong - but hey - we'll have fun finding out.
Ian.
03 September 2002, 02:37 PM
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I agree the crown as fallen. I think the impreza enjoyed the same bias that other cars are now enjoying. Or is it simply because all the spotty rude boys can afford them now, and the quality car press want to distance themselves from them and let the likes of Revs and Max Power pick up the story.
I think it had a good rein, but things are coming to an end.
I think tiff sums up the car well. Personally I think - an impreza may be fast in a straight line, but how can anybody drive one fast around a circuit when the driving position is that bad. I would rather sit on my toilet for 3 hours than in a scoob for 30 seconds on a track. It is like the seat is 40 foot above the floor pan. To have a real driving experience you need to sit in the car and not on it.
Well the under steer. Erm… enough said.
Sorry boys – The Impreza is dead - - Long live …….(well you can take your pic)
I think it had a good rein, but things are coming to an end.
I think tiff sums up the car well. Personally I think - an impreza may be fast in a straight line, but how can anybody drive one fast around a circuit when the driving position is that bad. I would rather sit on my toilet for 3 hours than in a scoob for 30 seconds on a track. It is like the seat is 40 foot above the floor pan. To have a real driving experience you need to sit in the car and not on it.
Well the under steer. Erm… enough said.
Sorry boys – The Impreza is dead - - Long live …….(well you can take your pic)
03 September 2002, 06:41 PM
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Thanks for the list of cars - first time I've seen them (haven't had a chance to buy the mag yet...)
I am very surprised at the positioning of the TVR. Being a track bred car, and with a pretty respectable turn of pace, the TVR should be suited to Goodwood down to the ground *unless* they ruined it by adding a bunch of mickey mouse chicanes to bias the tests. (Which I seem to remember them doing in the past at Castle Coombe)
The TVR car club regularly provide a good number of entries at our sprint meetings, and those things are incredibly fast around a circuit - when driven by a capable driver. Anyone got any idea what the excuses made by Autocar for this showing were?
I am very surprised at the positioning of the TVR. Being a track bred car, and with a pretty respectable turn of pace, the TVR should be suited to Goodwood down to the ground *unless* they ruined it by adding a bunch of mickey mouse chicanes to bias the tests. (Which I seem to remember them doing in the past at Castle Coombe)
The TVR car club regularly provide a good number of entries at our sprint meetings, and those things are incredibly fast around a circuit - when driven by a capable driver. Anyone got any idea what the excuses made by Autocar for this showing were?
03 September 2002, 08:52 PM
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Ummm... the tamora was said to be an amazing car when EVO mag previewed it several months back. In that test the car was running on 16" wheels (like grifs used to). They said it felt fantastic.
Now I remember watching the TCOTY2 CD on EVO mag. The ammount of dive the Tamora had in braking into the corners was just silly...it looked like it was going to tip up and the nose of the car looked about 1-2inches from the ground. Now the review cars all seem to run the 18" wheels from the tuscans. I wonder if the dynamics of the car have been a little ruined in this ? maybe a geometry change could be in order to sort what looked like a great car.
I am always a little dubious of the power and weight figures quoted by TVR. The cerbra that was pitted against the Brabus saloon weight in over 100kg more than its quoted weight...and TVRs don't always make their quoted power figures either. Maybe press cars are given a little bit of extra to get the good review - but then again - you would think most manufacturers would do the same - nobody likes bad press.
As for the tamora in autocar - it blew its engine - not sure what happened after that - maybe TVR got another car their - maybe not.
Ian.
Now I remember watching the TCOTY2 CD on EVO mag. The ammount of dive the Tamora had in braking into the corners was just silly...it looked like it was going to tip up and the nose of the car looked about 1-2inches from the ground. Now the review cars all seem to run the 18" wheels from the tuscans. I wonder if the dynamics of the car have been a little ruined in this ? maybe a geometry change could be in order to sort what looked like a great car.
I am always a little dubious of the power and weight figures quoted by TVR. The cerbra that was pitted against the Brabus saloon weight in over 100kg more than its quoted weight...and TVRs don't always make their quoted power figures either. Maybe press cars are given a little bit of extra to get the good review - but then again - you would think most manufacturers would do the same - nobody likes bad press.
As for the tamora in autocar - it blew its engine - not sure what happened after that - maybe TVR got another car their - maybe not.
Ian.
03 September 2002, 09:00 PM
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1 - Murcielago
2 - Porsche Boxster
3 - Focus RS
4 - Lotus Elise
5 - NSX
6 - SL55 AMG
7 - Porsche 996 C2
8 - Impreza STI
9 - TVR Tamora
10 - Clio Cup
11 - mgtf 160
12 - mini cooper s
13 - ford mondeo st220
14 - jaguar s-type 4.2
15 - ferrari 575m
16 - alfa romeo 156 gta
2 - Porsche Boxster
3 - Focus RS
4 - Lotus Elise
5 - NSX
6 - SL55 AMG
7 - Porsche 996 C2
8 - Impreza STI
9 - TVR Tamora
10 - Clio Cup
11 - mgtf 160
12 - mini cooper s
13 - ford mondeo st220
14 - jaguar s-type 4.2
15 - ferrari 575m
16 - alfa romeo 156 gta
03 September 2002, 10:34 PM
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To quote Tiff Needell: "A simple, confidence-inspiring machine for the track day novice, but if you want real excitement, you'll have to move up to an Evo VII."
And where's the Evo VII in the list?
And where's the Evo VII in the list?
03 September 2002, 10:48 PM
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Oh dear. An article about the scoob where it only comes in 8th against porkies etc. Must remember to drive mine into the sea tomorrow because some magazine published this and because some comments on here said the scoob has had its day.....NOT!
I drive it cos I like it. Don't give a toss about what Autocar says. And must admit have not seen any spotty herberts driving a Scoob where I live.
Funny how its had its day yet there are over 15000 on this bbs still talk about it.
Alasdair
I drive it cos I like it. Don't give a toss about what Autocar says. And must admit have not seen any spotty herberts driving a Scoob where I live.
Funny how its had its day yet there are over 15000 on this bbs still talk about it.
Alasdair
03 September 2002, 10:49 PM
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Ian, many thanks for the info!
I agree TVR tend to ... ummm... massage their figures a little bit...
I couldn't resist a quick check of relative performance at sprint meetings that I have been to recently. Typically the TVRs are comfortably quicker than most of the AWD rally cars - beating evos, imprezas and cosworths; they are usually ahead of the (standard) elises by a second or two per minute and the times are mixing in with the 1700 caterham 7's, usually one of the faster (better driven?) caterhams taking a second or so per minute out of the TVRs. (Note we are talking standard, or near standard cars here only)
Now these are usually 5 litre TVRs, so perhaps the Tamora would not be as quick; but on the other hand, my sprint meeting results are from relatively tight circuits which do not suit the TVR as well, I would have thought the high speed Goodwood circuit would lean even more to TVRs advantage.
As you say, perhaps the engine problem limited track time in the Tamora, that could explain it all! If I can just persuade one of the TVR Car Club bunch to bring a Tamora to North Weald in a few weeks time...
I agree TVR tend to ... ummm... massage their figures a little bit...
I couldn't resist a quick check of relative performance at sprint meetings that I have been to recently. Typically the TVRs are comfortably quicker than most of the AWD rally cars - beating evos, imprezas and cosworths; they are usually ahead of the (standard) elises by a second or two per minute and the times are mixing in with the 1700 caterham 7's, usually one of the faster (better driven?) caterhams taking a second or so per minute out of the TVRs. (Note we are talking standard, or near standard cars here only)
Now these are usually 5 litre TVRs, so perhaps the Tamora would not be as quick; but on the other hand, my sprint meeting results are from relatively tight circuits which do not suit the TVR as well, I would have thought the high speed Goodwood circuit would lean even more to TVRs advantage.
As you say, perhaps the engine problem limited track time in the Tamora, that could explain it all! If I can just persuade one of the TVR Car Club bunch to bring a Tamora to North Weald in a few weeks time...
03 September 2002, 11:28 PM
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I would rather sit on my toilet for 3 hours than in a scoob for 30 seconds on a track. It is like the seat is 40 foot above the floor pan. To have a real driving experience you need to sit in the car and not on it.
If you think that's bad you should try the Focus (which came 3rd). You'll think you're driving an MPV !!
04 September 2002, 09:20 AM
#21
At the end of the day, the scoob was developed as a rally car - a point to point car across changeable surfaces.. not a circuit car.
The fact that it's ever been ANY good on a circuit is a display of how far advanced it was in the first place.
The Focus RS really is a great car, but excluding that, all the cars that beet it have either substantially more grunt, are tuned purely for ciruit performance or cost a squillion pounds.
The fact it's in that league at all is saying something.
All the talk of the scoob losing it's crown.. well, of course it's not the breakthrough it was when it first arrived, but the development of this car is still supported by one of the most respected motorsport companies in the world, and if you took all them cars and punted them along a narrow, bumpy, slippy road I think the results would be rather different.
Horses for courses. No Lambo would beat a transit van at carrying half a tonne of bricks 200 miles.
Simon
The fact that it's ever been ANY good on a circuit is a display of how far advanced it was in the first place.
The Focus RS really is a great car, but excluding that, all the cars that beet it have either substantially more grunt, are tuned purely for ciruit performance or cost a squillion pounds.
The fact it's in that league at all is saying something.
All the talk of the scoob losing it's crown.. well, of course it's not the breakthrough it was when it first arrived, but the development of this car is still supported by one of the most respected motorsport companies in the world, and if you took all them cars and punted them along a narrow, bumpy, slippy road I think the results would be rather different.
Horses for courses. No Lambo would beat a transit van at carrying half a tonne of bricks 200 miles.
Simon
04 September 2002, 09:30 AM
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Hello webbie long time no see/speak etc.
I too still fondly love Imprezas - I've owned 3 over 4 1/2 years. Its why I still lurk on this bbs. They give you a pretty good all round package which is what people look for in a car.
I'm not saying 'Don't buy a scooby' I would love another one in the future - I'm just saying there are alternatives.
There are many great cars that still exist on our roads have haven't seen mainstream automotive press coverage in years - how often do you see quality cosworth powered fords in EVO, Car and the likes ?
I think the Impreza has probably now matured to the point where it needs its own monthly publication/magazine in the same way the cosworth lot have Performance Ford and other such magazines. I hope its only a matter of time before this happens as I'm sure there are plenty of folks that would buy.
Ian.
long time no see/speak etc.I too still fondly love Imprezas - I've owned 3 over 4 1/2 years. Its why I still lurk on this bbs. They give you a pretty good all round package which is what people look for in a car.
I'm not saying 'Don't buy a scooby' I would love another one in the future - I'm just saying there are alternatives.
There are many great cars that still exist on our roads have haven't seen mainstream automotive press coverage in years - how often do you see quality cosworth powered fords in EVO, Car and the likes ?
I think the Impreza has probably now matured to the point where it needs its own monthly publication/magazine in the same way the cosworth lot have Performance Ford and other such magazines. I hope its only a matter of time before this happens as I'm sure there are plenty of folks that would buy.
Ian.
04 September 2002, 09:37 AM
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The whole thing is incredibly subjective and depends on the day, the test ground, the test drivers, who got laid the night before etc. I remember EVO picked the MINI Cooper S (gave it 1st place) over the STi7 in their drivers car challenge a few months back, whereas here the MINI languishes in 13th.
My other half has a Cooper (my choice!) and it's a good little car but it's by no means the be all and end all. I haven't had a chance to drive a Cooper S yet, but it seems like they have traded some responsiveness for more power so there are swings and roundabouts there too.
In the end of the day, if you love it, you love it and never mind the rest....
Charlie
My other half has a Cooper (my choice!) and it's a good little car but it's by no means the be all and end all. I haven't had a chance to drive a Cooper S yet, but it seems like they have traded some responsiveness for more power so there are swings and roundabouts there too.
In the end of the day, if you love it, you love it and never mind the rest....
Charlie
04 September 2002, 09:40 AM
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I fail to see this argument that the scooby is crap cause yoofs can afford it?!! For the money I spent on mines I could have had a lotus elise and you'd never have called me a spotty little git in a sh1tty elise!
I chose the scooby over the lotus cause I needed some comfort and practicality and I wanted some useful straightline punch and wet weather ability. I'd love a lotus one day as a second car but I think for now the scooby fits my requirements just right.
And as for people saying Impreza drivers are just young w@nks I don't see that either. I've seen plenty of scooby drivers and the majority of them are behaving themselves and give a friendly wave, irrespective of age.
I get hacked off when I'm giving it a little stick through the country roads and somebody coming the other way is flashing their lights and shaking their head. I feel like pulling them in and explaining that there is little point in spending £thousands a year to keep the bloody thing on the road if I wasn't going to enjoy it from time to time. I don't go flying through Edinburgh's high street, etc at 60mph and frankly I don't see any scoobies that do.
I chose the scooby over the lotus cause I needed some comfort and practicality and I wanted some useful straightline punch and wet weather ability. I'd love a lotus one day as a second car but I think for now the scooby fits my requirements just right.
And as for people saying Impreza drivers are just young w@nks I don't see that either. I've seen plenty of scooby drivers and the majority of them are behaving themselves and give a friendly wave, irrespective of age.
I get hacked off when I'm giving it a little stick through the country roads and somebody coming the other way is flashing their lights and shaking their head. I feel like pulling them in and explaining that there is little point in spending £thousands a year to keep the bloody thing on the road if I wasn't going to enjoy it from time to time. I don't go flying through Edinburgh's high street, etc at 60mph and frankly I don't see any scoobies that do.
04 September 2002, 10:22 AM
#26
LOL
Sorry... I genuinely didn't mean to seem defensive.. but I can understand why you would think that.
It's just that I have ALWAYS said, the scoob is not a circuit car, so it's no surprise to me to see those results.
Just saying the scoob is good at what it's good at.
Ian's car sounds superb, but I dare say most scoob drivers would be slower in it.
All the best
Simon
Sorry... I genuinely didn't mean to seem defensive.. but I can understand why you would think that.
It's just that I have ALWAYS said, the scoob is not a circuit car, so it's no surprise to me to see those results.
Just saying the scoob is good at what it's good at.
Ian's car sounds superb, but I dare say most scoob drivers would be slower in it.
All the best
Simon
04 September 2002, 10:47 AM
#28
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The game has moved on again watch scooby residuals plummet even further (if thats possible) who is going to want a car which is so obviously a late eighties early ninties design anymore. Remember the days of acid house parties smilies etc and think scooby. Time to ditch these old fashioned sheds now and get some cutting edge technology that handles round the twisties.
And we all know which car all the decent tuners are going to turn their attentions to.
Scooby R.I.P
And we all know which car all the decent tuners are going to turn their attentions to.
Scooby R.I.P
