jeremy

Dear Prodrive,

Now that you are currently working hard on the type C based P2, I would just like to remind you while your P1 was fantastic in almost every regard, its steering feel was never all that hot.
Mr. Wood or Mr. Lines or Lapworth or whoever, why not drive a 911 or 968 or a Lotus, pay attention to their steering, sense how those systems allow their driver to percieve the road below as well as impart a sense of loss of grip. Study these systems, or if you feel you cannot understand how to do so, why not hire Lotus to teach you? Why can't the P2 be the tactile equal of a Lotus?

johnfelstead

or they could put the quickrack back on the car. Nothing wrong with the feel of my STi5 TypeRA.

jeremy

John,
Is your sti 5's steering really as good as a Lotus? What year is yours?
Thanks, JL

Dark Blue Mark

Lotus?!

What AWD experience do they have then? I seem to remember Clarkson not having a good word to say about the Esprit handling. Are others better?

Porshce, maybe...

MB

[Edited by Dark Blue Mark - 8/22/2002 11:17:30 PM]

RB5#295

The steering was the thing I liked least when I test drove my RB.
The only lotus I've driven is a Mk2 Elise, which was good, and the 944 / 968 is a fine power assisted set up, but IMHO the best steering ever is the unassisted (pre-'89) 911.

Fen

johnfelstead

Taking the weight into account (cos you cant ask any 1200Kg car to turn like a 600kg car) i would say the turnin on my car is bloody brilliant.

Then again it's not exactly a standard spec car, being a TypeRA it has the high ratio steering rack which improves things massively. It also runs with the centre diff controler which i leave open in the dry usually, this makes the car very much like a RWD car and that improves turnin also. (In the wet winding the diff forward lets you use the front LSD to drag it into the corner too, improving wet weather turnin) I have also had the bump steer removed and the geometries setup properly running 1.5 degrees negative front and 1.4 degrees negative rear. Toe is set to 9 minutes combined front and 4 minutes combined rear so it's very neutral. As standard Impreza's understeer badly, get the geometries setup properly and you will be amazed how diferent they handle.

Trout...

Totally agree with John - although I run less camber - otherwise very similar set up.

Pre 89 911s were perfection - I drove a post 89 911 for the first time really and was so disappointed with the steering.

Trout

jjk

Are they building a P2 then?
Is there any evidence?
Jas

jeremy

John and others,
When I speak of steering I not only mean precision and turn-in. I mean feel- the ability of the system to transmit the level of grip of the front tyres to the finger tips. This is an ability that most agree makes a good car great.

MikeWood

Jeremy

Not wishing to be too blase here, but I don't quite understand your criticism. Are there many P1's in New York?
How many of the cars listed actually drive the front wheels. It's very easy to get great steering feel but you get other much worse characteristics when you then make the front wheels take some drive torque at the same time.

We would have liked to fitted the car as std with 18" wheels but this was not possible for various reasons, all of which were out of our control. If you have ever driven a P1 on 18s, you would find it very difficult to criticise the steering as I personally have yet to drive a car with better steering that actually drives the front wheels.

John
Why do you think we removed the quickrack? It was never fitted in the first place. A P1 is NOT simply a Type R with bits removed. We did try a quicker rack on the car but we felt it made the steering worse rather than better on this spec of car for most drivers.

I had the opportunity to drive a P1 again this week. It had the std (worn)17" tyres fitted and running higher than normal pressures even in the wet it gave me enough confidence and feed back about the grip levels at the front that I was able to turn into the first corner I came to (Redgate at Donington), turn in perfectly, let me feel eactly how much grip there was and exit the corner on full throttle in (what I thought) a nice controlled powerslide. In my opinion there was nothing wrong with that at all!

jeremy

Mike,
Nice to see your on the case. Certainly you don't think I'm tied to NY, I've driven the P1, great work.

Actually a good example of a 4-wheel drive car that has excellent steering feel is the Integrale. And in my opinion i'd still say that the Integrale (also the Skyline too excepting its Rwd bias) has better steering feel than the P1. Anyone else agree? Indeed I believe the Integrale (steering) should be used as a benchmark for your P2 development work. No?

Last, I noticed your comment about 18inch wheels. Shouldn't larger wheels actually be worse in certain conditons like the wet?

Good luck in turning out the P2!



[Edited by jeremy - 8/23/2002 5:45:48 PM]

ScoobyDoo555

<flamesuit ON!!!!>>

Could always give it to Mitsubishi!!!

Dan

RB5#295

If we're agreed that the pre-'89 911 has the best steering then not only do we have to consider that it is RWD but also that it is non-assisted and probably that it's under the far lighter end of the car.

My immediate problem with the RB5's steering (haven't driven a P1) was that it felt over-assisted, not as meaty as the other controls. Communication actually isn't that bad, and I have no criticism of turn-in or accuracy, just the way it 'feels' and the weight.

Fen

johnfelstead

What i should have said is that the Quickrack was an option to you and you decided to not use it. The V-Limited TypeR has it and some of the non V-Limited TypeR's have it too as an option.

I think the quickrack makes a massive diference to the ability to drive these cars quickly, it's much less effort. I am sure there must be a valid reason for not going for it, maybe you can explain that rather than just saying we tried it and it didnt suit?

As to feedback, having power steering does dull the feel of any car, some less so than others. If you want to really feel what the tyre is doing at it's limits you really need a non asisted rack. The problem with that is it makes the car much harder to drive due to the increase in force required.

If you compare my westfield to my Impreza then they really are completely diferent in terms of feedback and feel. The Impreza is very dull by comparison, some of that is down to no power steering, some is down to having double wishbone suspension with optimised geometries and light weight alloy uprights and hubs, some of it is down to the very light and incredibly grippy tyres i used.

I find with the impreza i am driving more on knowledge and expectancy rather than pure feel, i have to make the car do something for me in advance compared to the westie which was very much more seat of the pants. I found being smooth in the westie was key to speed, i find making the scoob move around and using weight transfer more works better, certainy in the slower corners.

For such a heavy car with AWD, the TypeRA is an astonishing piece of kit, far from perfect, but with a good stable suspension package it's pretty dificult to beat as an alrounder.

UK spec cars with the viscous centre diff are not as precise IMHO, buy they are still stunning cars that can be made to handle incredibly well.

Jeff Wiltshire

I think the emphasis there is CAN. Standard UK Imprezas don't turn in very well at all or handle for that matter..overdampned and undersprung with their geometery settings all over the place.


Jeff

[Edited by Jeff Wiltshire - 8/24/2002 7:25:21 AM]

AJbaseBloke

The next gen STi, and maybe the std cars will get some or all of the geometry from the RA spec C - among other things, lots more caster is involved, and it really helps.

Some weight should go from the front too - that'll help quite a bit. Lots to look forward to IMHO

Try the ALK - it really can help in the meantime.

jeremy

I think the new C spec will be an excellent test case for whether or not the new generation Impreza can attain better steering feel. I say this mainly because I understand that it loses the front-subframes. This combined with the geometry changes just might bring the new generation car back at least to the level of the 00' and below. It will be interesting to see whether Prodrive or anyone else will be able to further improve upon it- maybe by further rose-jointing the front suspension as Lancia did with the Integrale. Certainly I know it would make an interesting engineering project for one so able-minded- possibly John F?

By the way so many I have spoken to with 96' and prior Impreza's say that for some reason these cars have much better steering feel than all other Impreza's, can anyone confirm these claims?

RB5#295

I had a '94 GL as a courtesy car yesterday; can't say I noticed an improvement

Fen

Edited 'cause I can't spell

[Edited by RB5#295 - 8/24/2002 10:01:54 AM]

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

I feel the STi7 requires a quick rack --- I am working too hard in the twisties ( some places quoting it has) but think it's a just reduced in lock to lock. Upside its is speed sensitive downside during low speed tight uns the steering wheel will tried to whipped out of hand

Tony

Ps still great fun though and know it's hard to get a car to please all

Spooooling Messtakes

[Edited by T5NYW - 8/24/2002 10:30:02 AM]