LG John

Ok dokey,

Had the MY99 (scoobysport bb and dawes) for a month now and thought I'd compile my thoughts:

I asked a lot before I got the car how easy it was to provoke the back end round and was told it wasn't possible unless there is some big lift-off action and even then it isn't very adjustable. *****!! In the wet with enough throttle the back-end can drift round very nicely and in a controlable manner. As for lift-off that is easy as well an once the car is at the edge of grip its actually very adjustable (just as much as the VTS which is a smaller and lighter hatch) The difficultly is getting it to loose the grip in the first place. On holiday I regularly drove very tight, twisty, hilly single track roads and on occasion (at night so you can watch out for on-coming headlights) I let rip into them. I know for sure that no road going car could touch an Impreza or Evo though those kind of roads. I've driven it fast in the Saxo and the scooby was miles quicker an in the wet the difference was even more. Even brilliant handling RWD's Elise, etc would be gubbed. On the open more sweeping bends I'd fancy the VTS to keep up in the dry. Anyone toyed with a VTS on the track cause I'd expect that as standard there would not be much between the cars! In the wet though the scoob is in a world of its own and I actually like it when it rains now

Straight-line is nice and punchy but not much quicker than the Saxo at the moment. I hope that TEC3 will help for this and also sort out the annoying turbo lag.

Build quality is very variable. Good in some places and in others actually worse than the saxo

Fuel economy...........joke....but worth it.....probably

All in all, I'm having fun and still glad I bought it. Much to learn and will make further additions later.

How does this compare with your thoughts

Rottie1

Hi Saxo Boy,

No offence but are you sure that your car is not down on power.

I have a MY 99uk wagon unichip,dawes, full decat makes 251bhp at PStation. This will pull away from my mates golf 4 motion at any sane speeds. Off the line it is far quicker, from 60 upwards, pulls away or reals it in very convincingly. The golf hits 100 in 18 secs so slighlty quicker than saxo.

Not meaning to start my car is .....etc just a comment.

What about running costs as yours is also a 99uk? mine has cost a fortune( all my choice tho)

Rottie

Little Miss WRX

Get an import

Rottie1

Never, i always buy British!!!


Rottie

LG John

You raise an interesting point rottie. In the first few days the car was massively quick and would blow away and of the 18-22 second 0-100mph machines with ease but it doesn't seem as fast now. I had a boost drop and fiddled around with the dawes, I've got it back to 1.2 bar but it still doesn't seem as fast as it was. I put this down to me getting used to it but maybe your right? I'll get a full decat and John Banks will sort her out with a tec3 soon after

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Saxo Boy,
what turbo lag are you getting?
Surely it must be a different type of UK car to mine me thinks
Ok, ive got a full decat exhaust which probably eliminates any lag thats there (but never noticed any ) but you may have to go for a full decat exhaust system if your car is suffering, also you may find that having a different ecu wont cure your lag, its not really electronic, its mechanical... (and gasses )

Tony

mattstant

I know you loved you'e old saxo saxoboy but the figures speak for themselves
first this from a fellow saxo enthusiasts site

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Performance
Acceleration (0-60mph) 7.2 Seconds Max Speed 127 mph
Acceleration (50-70mph) 9.8 Seconds
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

now this from SIDC



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 4th Feb. 98, Autocar tested a 1998 specification five door hatchback. A top speed of 143 mph was recorded, with the 0-60 mph time being dispensed with in only 5.5 seconds, and 0-100 mph in 15.8. The standing 1/4 mile was completed in 14.2 seconds at 97 mph. The 30-70 mph increment was achieved in 5.6 seconds (a whole 1 second faster than a manual Porsche Boxster!)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

dont see how any standard vts is going to get anywhere near your scoob with mods in gear times for the vts are nearly double 50 to 70 compared to the standard scoobs 30!!! to 70

matt


[Edited by mattstant - 8/13/2002 6:31:02 PM]

LG John

When you come from a VTS with what can only be described as having razor sharp throttle response the scooby feels dog slow to get going!! I'm confident the full-decat will solve that and thereafter the TEC3 is just for more power and to give boost control back to the ECU. I'm still not convinced by this dawes business, for example:

I have 99 with scoobysport bb and a dawes @1.2bar.
Sipie has 99 with swana bb and an ITG filter.

We both floored it and acceleration was identical right up till 100mph when I started to slowly gain on him. I really did expect that despite his filter the dawes would hump him. Any thoughts or anyone local who knows how to properly set one up? It makes 1.2 bar in 5th under load so I'm not wanting to try and achieve more boost!

skiddusmarkus

Using optimax or octane booster?

LG John

I feel a visit to Crail coming on to see how the scoob is really pulling. Got 15.3 in the VTS so we'll see

I do see your point about the paper stats but in fairness few people will achieve 5.5 for a standard UK without some clutch abuse.

I might go out with a stopwatch and try the 30-70 to try and get a 'rough' guide for what I'm achieving.

Hmmmmm! I guess the knockhill meet will help, if I get left for dust pulling away from the road bridge tolls I'll know she ain't pulling to well

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Seen a standard uk car except cat back exhaust do a 13.32 at crail but he was giving it some stick

Tony

NotoriousREV

I kind of know what Saxoboy means, sometimes cars that on paper should be a lot slower don't get quite as small in your rear view mirror as you'd expect.

hades

That would be in top gear. 30-70 in the scoob is through the gears i.e 2nd and 3rd. Not a level playing field, M8.

Even a scooby needs to be in the right gear to be quick

Nonetheless, your new thing should still be much quicker than the old one.

LG John

Just did an 'I love my clutch' 0-60 in about 6.7 seconds. The car didn't move for about a second cause I let her bog down on the slight uphill. Had I dialled up even a smattering of revs 5.7 would have been easy and even better with a launch so it's probably doing not too bad. I'll just go bait a VTS

john banks

Ways to lower boost threshold (not for silly money - ie keep it at 2 litres):

Up-pipe, downpipe, midsection (plus your backbox)
Add fuel and ignition timing during spool up

The breathing mods will also reduce lag which is the delay when you snap open the throttle. It will never be like a good normally aspirated engine though, although in the turbo's most efficient area can be quite good.

Your Dawes sounds as though it is set optimally on your present ECU.

The Tek 3 will gain on peak power and torque by being leaner on the fuelling. Running extra boost will mean that the ignition probably can't be advanced much more under load.

However, I suspect you won't be happy until you have a big turbo on your car. I know you really like power. However, you will make more lag and the boost will come in higher. You get used to it and end up using the gears more to keep it on the boil. My present setup does not really pull until 4000 but will pull really hard into whatever I dare set the rev limiter to whereas the original turbo no matter what you do is fighting a losing battle even by 5000 RPM - a bit like redlining a Transit van in comparison to a big turbo. So it is a whimper of midrange before it is all over. If you have oodles of performance from 4000-7000 RPM then it is not too bad keeping it there.

Tony I can't believe you don't notice lag or a high boost threshold when even an optimally setup UK car will be losing out to a decent 2 litre NA engine until 2500 RPM if you are optimistic. Go and drive a decent big six or eight in a car with similar power at wheels to weight ratio and tell me that the Scooby has good throttle response. Even a humble 3 litre PSA V6 or a Ford 2.5 L V6 when floored has incredibly crisp throttle response in comparison to a low compression low capacity four cylinder turbo engine. Inescapable.

The only reason for a turbocharged engine IMHO is weight/size and the fact that you can bolt on a bigger turbo It is not economy, reliabilty, linear power delivery, throttle response or wide power band.

[Edited by john banks - 8/13/2002 8:07:28 PM]

Nigel H

I went from a VTS to a MY01 via a Focus (I've got kids!). My memory could therefore be a bit hazy.

I agree with you on the frottle response, VTS was very sharp (not as sharp as the AXGT that I had once though). Mostly due to weight I think.

For the most part I don't think my VTS would be have been able to keep up with the Scoob, so long as you keep on boost. Plodding around town the Saxo would be much quicker, mainly 'cos its small.

I've had the scoob for nearly a year and I love it. I'm just hoping that it's as reliable as the VTS was - no faults in 45 000 miles and nearly 3 years of ownership.

sKunk

Reminds me of an encounter with an old MG turbo rustbucket.

I pulled up behind at 50mph in 5th, we stayed at a constant speed for a bit and then he floored it. I put the foot down as well but he just pulled away from me.

A very short while later I was behind him again at 50mph, this time I was in 4th. He floored it again and this time I kept up and could of cruised past if I wanted.

We slowed down again to 50mph for a bit and this time when the traffic opened and he floored it I dropped to third and put the foot down. Simply blew him away


Moral of the story is that the Scoob needs to be in it's sweet spot (I call it my comfort zone ) to haul ***. Wrong gear at the wrong speed and you'd be passed by a Nova.

Floyd

iTrader: (9)

I had a ride in a VTS the other day, which was owned by one of my younger engineers. He was quite keen to show me what it could do knowing that I had a scooby.

Well, when we returned I thought that he had taken things easy and was trying not to show off to me. I commented on his self restraint and his maturity, only for him to say "what are you talking about, I was really going for it, didn't you think that was great?"

Er, no....

I then took him out in mine and he went, erm, quiet

F

Mark Jackson

As per my thread the other day, I am not surprised by this one.

The Terzo I drove felt flat as a fart until it was making boost, appallingly so and when it came on boost it was quick but frankly, a bit of a dissapointment, I think half the problem here is expectations, you dont expect a Saxo VTS to be as quick as it is, you do however expect a Scoob to nail you to your seat, and a UK Turbo doesnt.

My cousin had driven the Terzo a few weeks before me and reckoned it was way quicker than my T5, I disagreed and he now concludes that their aint much difference, to be honest my old 8 V (modded) Golf GTI feels more lively most of the time as it pull from low down and makes loads of noise, I suspect that the car I drove would have to work hard to make it look slow, 30-70 in it takes 7.5 seconds and 0-60 about 8, on the road a couple of seconds doesnt equate to much distance. I drove a Tickford Capri recently and that scared me (mainly cos its a 18 year old Ford)but the Acceleration was brutal, cant understand why it felt so quick cos its only 230 bhp, Fiat Coupe Turbo felt quicker than the Terzo as well. Was it poorly ?


I am after apocalyptic acceleration, not quick, I supect a Supra turbo may be my way forward.

Had a go in a 2001 UK STI, which was more like it but a bit out of my price range and a bit OTT style wise for my delicate eyes.

Its funny seeing all the 'Boys', like Astraboy and SaxoBoy now with new cars but keeping the same name, is there an older bloke on here called Austin 7 Boy or Allegro Boy ?

LG John

Allegro Boy.......I like

John, as ever I see your point but I think I'll stick with the small turbo for now. I'm sure with the various mods we've discussed I can get the turbo to spool up earlier and faster and for the car to give good solid pull. Ideally I'd love a car that pulls like a modified supra in a straight line but still goes well round corners but that just isn't going to happen in my price range. The Subaru is great and I like the punchy acceleration it has. My aim is to modify it so that it doesn't get shown up 60-100 mph by a CTR or Fiat Coupe Turbo. Coupe propbably is faster as standard by the way but it didn't really feel it.

Spanpody.

What will your scooby be putting out at the wheels if its running 220+ at the flywheel. There is quite a bit of transmission losses though the 4wd system.

This is where the 2wd hot hatch gains on you. My mate (who you will meet tommorow when we cruse up to Knockhill) used to have a Pug205 with Mi16 + twin45's + other mods, it was putting out (measured) 160 at the wheels. This would have left a UK Impreza no problem. He sold it to a guy who ran it at Crail and he got very good times.

On the straights you need about 250+ with 4wd to make sure those hot hatches stay a small dot in your mirror On the twisties its down to the driver and has nothing to do with power!



[Edited by Spanpody. - 8/14/2002 11:12:15 AM]

john banks

Kenny, I hear you, but I also hear you can get a VF23 turbo for £450 delivered from New Zealand now. Then it will go and go round corners.

Agree - takes a shed load of power to just pull away from someone.

[Edited by john banks - 8/14/2002 11:11:12 AM]

bioforger

iTrader: (1)

Spanpody, erm that Pug205 with Mi16 + twin45's + other mods would have probably 190-200horses at the flywheel, and isnt really standard is it. Youre comparing it to a standard scoob. And in a car that weighs no more than a gnats chuff of course it will be quicker in a straight line. In the wet though, no chance

I use to have a mildly tuned 1.9GTI which put out about 160bhp at the flywheel. But standard Scoobs ate it up for breakfast on my morning commute

Spanpody.

Ok not quite a fair comparison but the likes of Honda's 2wd TEG's and CTR's must be getting close to the Scooby's power@wheels.

john banks

The power at wheels on a dyno for AWD cars seems artificially low to me given the road acceleration figures for cars of various power to weight ratios. Also there are double the number of contact patches compared to the road. Lag, weight and losses along with hot hatches getting more powerful means the gap is no longer really there for standadrd Scoobies?

David_Wallis

And how do you achieve the times in the saxo then??

David

LG John

The VTS (as standard (and in the dry)) is the easiest as pie to launch. You dial up about 2.5k rpm and then slip the clutch out over about a second to find initial traction and momentum. Then after that you can floor it in every gear. The gearbox always felt like it took the serious abuse with the quick/forced changes.

With the scooby you shoving 5k rpm through it for a good lauch and because of the 4WD the clutch has to take all the strain. At least with the VTS if you tried to give it too much the wheels would spin and the clutch would prevail.

One of the lads on saxosportsclub has agreed to a crail jostle when I've got my car modded. He has the white VTS (the one with the white alloys) and has a supercharger and over 200bhp. I'm looking forward to it whenever it happens but I expect that even with a TEC3 or similar that I'll loose. All good fun though

speedking

Floyd: Axe murderers employ engineers

john banks

Kenny, your boost is already pretty near the sensible limit for hot weather. MY99 ECU runs a lot of advance. So the only significant gains you will get in outright power are from leaning it out a bit. The downpipe will help a bit. So it will be no fireball - your turbo is the big limiting factor. I keep whispering to you about big turbos

LG John

Right john, give me the big turbo chat! Assume I buy a nice big turbo, what difference will that make? Won't I still need ECU mods on top (i.e. blowing my budget big time?)