Here's my thoughts then on Scoob vs 'Teg
20 June 2001, 02:02 PM
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Ok, here we go.
Before I start, can I please point out that I am not going down the line of one is better than the other, simply my thoughts, having run a UK spec, totally standard MY99 turbo for 27,000 miles and now running a UK spec, totally standard MY2000 Integra Type R.
General comments.
From the outside, both cars have an amazing “sense of occasion” to them, the Scoob looking the more aggressive of the two, probably due to the lights and scoop. Integra has bigger wing. Both draw same amounts of interest from passers by.
Interior.
From the inside, I miss the view of the scoop
. Both have fantastic seats (yet to do long run in the Integra) but initial impressions are good. Honda has lower driving position, as you would expect but both have excellent driving positions for my 5’10” frame.
The Honda has, without doubt, far better interior fit and finish and materials quality than the Scoob
. Titanium gear **** is fantastic, and the Momo wheel is considerably smaller than the Subaru’s equivalent and better to hold. From the inside, the Honda has a far more intimate feel, as you would expect from a coupe as opposed to a saloon. Bugger all storage space in the Honda, though.
Overall, the Honda has it for interior ambience, aside from the mock carbon fibre which is a bit naff. It is, without doubt a more “special” place to be.
Comfort & Practicality
This may surprise you. The Honda is no less comfortable than the Scoob. The ride is only nominally harsher than the Scoob, but there appears more padding in the seats. What lets the Honda down in this respect is the noise, due to short gearing and lack of sound deadening.
The Scoob is a much more relaxing place to be for a high speed cruise. Cross country blast, no winner or looser.
How practical a car is of absolutely no consequence to me, but the Scoob wins hands down for its extra doors, better visibility and greater space. Honda is a hatch, but very shallow boot.
Drivetrain.
Leaving performance aside for a minute, without a doubt, the Integra’s engine and ‘box are something special. Thought nothing could match the flat four rumble, but if you haven’t heard an Integra at nearly 9000 rpm you are missing one of the great automotive experiences, imho
. Anyone used to a pair of DCOE carbs will know the kind of noise. Gears are very close, as you would expect, and change quality is fantastic. Short, positive and you’ll never beat the syncromesh. No slop and play in the drivetrain at all. Very smooth at high revs.
Traction isn’t bad (LSD works well) in the Honda, but no match for the Subaru as you would expect. Its quite obvious from the drivers seat that there is a lot less in the way of transmission mass in the Honda.
The Honda is more economical, by about 5 mpg.
Power delivery.
A lot has been said that the Integra is gutless below 6000 rpm. I would take issue with that. Quite clearly it has no where near the torque of the scooby, but its not as big a gap in reality as it appears on paper. Where the Honda does suffer, though, is around the 5,500 to 6,500 range where there appears to be a hole in the power and torque curves. Generally though, due to light weight, fairly rapid progress can be made below 6000 rpm in the Honda, but its no match for the Scooby in the mid range.
Where the Honda scores well is in the throttle response. It is really razor sharp, and gives a real sense of urgency missing from the Scooby due to the lag. On the other side, I miss the wall of torque from the Subaru when on boost.
In short, two fantastic but very different engines.
Performance.
There can be no dispute, its harder work to extract the best from the Honda than it was the Scoob, which took much less effort to build speed. This is simply down to the different power and torque categoristics of each engine.
Through the gears, the Scoob was ultimately the quicker of the two, but not by that much. In gear, no contest. The Honda cannot match the torque of the Subaru. Top speed I reckon will be about the same.
Subjectively, though, the Honda feels faster because of the need to rev it and the noise it makes.
Generally, it took less effort to make rapid progress in the Scoob than the Honda.
Handling and Grip:
Scoob has more outright grip and better traction due to 4wd. The Honda does, however, have pretty amazing traction for a light, powerful, front driver. This is no doubt helped by the comparative lack of torque. Round a constant radius, I expect the subaru would generate slightly higher lateral G (bear in mind this comparison is between two standard cars with tyres as they come from the factory.
Not that much in it though. Put better tyres on the Integra and it could be reversed.
On the handling front, I have to say though that the Honda wins. Steering feel is better in the Honda, and there is more weight to it. The Honda appears to resist understeer extremely well and is better than the Scoob in this respect
I think we will all agree that the Scoob in standard form is a very safe handling car, up to its high limits. It is therefore relatively easy for anyone to drive quite quickly. In the Honda, driving quickly is a far more involved experience and, as a consequence, more fun at perhaps saner speeds. Ultimately, and I’m no expert, the Integra has the better chassis of the two.
I suspect that is as much a function of its extremely stiff shell (believe it or not you can sense it through the controls), lighter weight, and less compromised double wishbone all round set up, as opposed to the struts in the scoob.
its really pretty close, though, and ultimately would be down to driver ability as much as the cars themselves.
So, did I find a worthy replacement? Yes I think so. The Honda is less compromised and more focused. It is more fun (especially at more legal speeds) and feels a more special place to be. The scoob has feel good factor in abundance, but that is down to its power delivery and traction. The Integra has even more of the feel good factor (for me) due to its whole make up.
I asked myself the question of which I would prefer if they had the same generic engine. Without a doubt, the Honda would get my vote for interior, chassis feel, steering and gearchange.
The Scoob is a better "all use" car, however, and if we had only the one car, then the scoob would be the choice. And yes, I do miss it. For wide A roads, dual carriageways and motorways the Scoob is the more suitable car. For anything else, I would take the Honda every time.
D
Before I start, can I please point out that I am not going down the line of one is better than the other, simply my thoughts, having run a UK spec, totally standard MY99 turbo for 27,000 miles and now running a UK spec, totally standard MY2000 Integra Type R.
General comments.
From the outside, both cars have an amazing “sense of occasion” to them, the Scoob looking the more aggressive of the two, probably due to the lights and scoop. Integra has bigger wing. Both draw same amounts of interest from passers by.
Interior.
From the inside, I miss the view of the scoop
. Both have fantastic seats (yet to do long run in the Integra) but initial impressions are good. Honda has lower driving position, as you would expect but both have excellent driving positions for my 5’10” frame.The Honda has, without doubt, far better interior fit and finish and materials quality than the Scoob
. Titanium gear **** is fantastic, and the Momo wheel is considerably smaller than the Subaru’s equivalent and better to hold. From the inside, the Honda has a far more intimate feel, as you would expect from a coupe as opposed to a saloon. Bugger all storage space in the Honda, though.Overall, the Honda has it for interior ambience, aside from the mock carbon fibre which is a bit naff. It is, without doubt a more “special” place to be.
Comfort & Practicality
This may surprise you. The Honda is no less comfortable than the Scoob. The ride is only nominally harsher than the Scoob, but there appears more padding in the seats. What lets the Honda down in this respect is the noise, due to short gearing and lack of sound deadening.
The Scoob is a much more relaxing place to be for a high speed cruise. Cross country blast, no winner or looser.
How practical a car is of absolutely no consequence to me, but the Scoob wins hands down for its extra doors, better visibility and greater space. Honda is a hatch, but very shallow boot.
Drivetrain.
Leaving performance aside for a minute, without a doubt, the Integra’s engine and ‘box are something special. Thought nothing could match the flat four rumble, but if you haven’t heard an Integra at nearly 9000 rpm you are missing one of the great automotive experiences, imho
. Anyone used to a pair of DCOE carbs will know the kind of noise. Gears are very close, as you would expect, and change quality is fantastic. Short, positive and you’ll never beat the syncromesh. No slop and play in the drivetrain at all. Very smooth at high revs. Traction isn’t bad (LSD works well) in the Honda, but no match for the Subaru as you would expect. Its quite obvious from the drivers seat that there is a lot less in the way of transmission mass in the Honda.
The Honda is more economical, by about 5 mpg.
Power delivery.
A lot has been said that the Integra is gutless below 6000 rpm. I would take issue with that. Quite clearly it has no where near the torque of the scooby, but its not as big a gap in reality as it appears on paper. Where the Honda does suffer, though, is around the 5,500 to 6,500 range where there appears to be a hole in the power and torque curves. Generally though, due to light weight, fairly rapid progress can be made below 6000 rpm in the Honda, but its no match for the Scooby in the mid range.
Where the Honda scores well is in the throttle response. It is really razor sharp, and gives a real sense of urgency missing from the Scooby due to the lag. On the other side, I miss the wall of torque from the Subaru when on boost.
In short, two fantastic but very different engines.
Performance.
There can be no dispute, its harder work to extract the best from the Honda than it was the Scoob, which took much less effort to build speed. This is simply down to the different power and torque categoristics of each engine.
Through the gears, the Scoob was ultimately the quicker of the two, but not by that much. In gear, no contest. The Honda cannot match the torque of the Subaru. Top speed I reckon will be about the same.
Subjectively, though, the Honda feels faster because of the need to rev it and the noise it makes.
Generally, it took less effort to make rapid progress in the Scoob than the Honda.
Handling and Grip:
Scoob has more outright grip and better traction due to 4wd. The Honda does, however, have pretty amazing traction for a light, powerful, front driver. This is no doubt helped by the comparative lack of torque. Round a constant radius, I expect the subaru would generate slightly higher lateral G (bear in mind this comparison is between two standard cars with tyres as they come from the factory.
Not that much in it though. Put better tyres on the Integra and it could be reversed.
On the handling front, I have to say though that the Honda wins. Steering feel is better in the Honda, and there is more weight to it. The Honda appears to resist understeer extremely well and is better than the Scoob in this respect
I think we will all agree that the Scoob in standard form is a very safe handling car, up to its high limits. It is therefore relatively easy for anyone to drive quite quickly. In the Honda, driving quickly is a far more involved experience and, as a consequence, more fun at perhaps saner speeds. Ultimately, and I’m no expert, the Integra has the better chassis of the two.
I suspect that is as much a function of its extremely stiff shell (believe it or not you can sense it through the controls), lighter weight, and less compromised double wishbone all round set up, as opposed to the struts in the scoob.
its really pretty close, though, and ultimately would be down to driver ability as much as the cars themselves.
So, did I find a worthy replacement? Yes I think so. The Honda is less compromised and more focused. It is more fun (especially at more legal speeds) and feels a more special place to be. The scoob has feel good factor in abundance, but that is down to its power delivery and traction. The Integra has even more of the feel good factor (for me) due to its whole make up.
I asked myself the question of which I would prefer if they had the same generic engine. Without a doubt, the Honda would get my vote for interior, chassis feel, steering and gearchange.
The Scoob is a better "all use" car, however, and if we had only the one car, then the scoob would be the choice. And yes, I do miss it. For wide A roads, dual carriageways and motorways the Scoob is the more suitable car. For anything else, I would take the Honda every time.
D
20 June 2001, 02:50 PM
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Very good assesment, cheers, BTW, are you on RE010's or S02's?
The Teg takes loads of getting used to, I really need to concentrate on improving my driving technique, though its a laugh watching someone else drive my car, and fail hopelessly at using VTEC, makes you realise how far you've come.
My girlfriend started off changing at around 5000RPM, like a lot of people do at first, then I told her to push it, and needless to say we found the rev limiter a few times.
Now you have the car, I have to tell you, dont get an induction kit, unless its cold air. They actually rob the feel and upper range performance of the car, and its so loud as to be Max Muppet.
The best mod I have found is a de-cat, available from
The Teg takes loads of getting used to, I really need to concentrate on improving my driving technique, though its a laugh watching someone else drive my car, and fail hopelessly at using VTEC, makes you realise how far you've come.
My girlfriend started off changing at around 5000RPM, like a lot of people do at first, then I told her to push it, and needless to say we found the rev limiter a few times.
Now you have the car, I have to tell you, dont get an induction kit, unless its cold air. They actually rob the feel and upper range performance of the car, and its so loud as to be Max Muppet.
The best mod I have found is a de-cat, available from
20 June 2001, 03:35 PM
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IntegraR,
Its on RE010's just now.
I'd heard that induction wasn't a great idea as well. After all, anything that revs that high must have a fairly free flowing set up as standard Certainly sounds like it 
D
Its on RE010's just now.
I'd heard that induction wasn't a great idea as well. After all, anything that revs that high must have a fairly free flowing set up as standard
Certainly sounds like it D
20 June 2001, 03:46 PM
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recommend the yoko a539 for itr... (and the previously mentioned camber & toe in changes).
i've steered clear of mods though, always seen it as a slippery slope - i save that for the bike Though I saw an itr with a mugen pipe the other day...
jon
i've steered clear of mods though, always seen it as a slippery slope - i save that for the bike
Though I saw an itr with a mugen pipe the other day... jon
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20 June 2001, 03:48 PM
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Diablo, you might want to try the S02's, when it comes time to change.
They tend to be regarded as the better tyre of the two, though the RE010's are very good.
De-cat is excellent, not exactly mind blowing, but makes a real difference, and costs only around £80, plus fitting of course, those exhaust bolts rust solid in no time.
MOT is not a prob with the de-cat, had my 18000 mile service a couple Saturdays ago, and its first MOT, so I took the cat with, and asked Honda to refit it prior to the MOT.
I was expecting a heavy charge for the extra, but couldnt believe that the MOT, 18000 mile service, and refitting of the cat (with new bolts), came to only £85.
How cheap!!! I was shocked.
They tend to be regarded as the better tyre of the two, though the RE010's are very good.
De-cat is excellent, not exactly mind blowing, but makes a real difference, and costs only around £80, plus fitting of course, those exhaust bolts rust solid in no time.
MOT is not a prob with the de-cat, had my 18000 mile service a couple Saturdays ago, and its first MOT, so I took the cat with, and asked Honda to refit it prior to the MOT.
I was expecting a heavy charge for the extra, but couldnt believe that the MOT, 18000 mile service, and refitting of the cat (with new bolts), came to only £85.
How cheap!!! I was shocked.
20 June 2001, 03:56 PM
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Nope jon, impossible performance do a flanged pipe, so you basically bolt off your cat, put it in a box for safe keeping, and bolt the de-cat pipe on in its place (we're talking about 3 ft of pipe).
Its just a straight through piece of pipe, with ends flanged to fit exactly, and with a silencer around the outside, so you dont hear any diffs.
It really makes the VTEC cross over more apparent, and adds a bit to overall performance, without overly affecting the engine characteristics or dynamics in any way, just adds a slight performance boost, but worth it.
When you go for MOT, take the boxed cat, hand it to Honda, and tell them to refit it, though you will then need to refit the de-cat after, but its only once a year.
Legal alternative is available from RRR Motorsports, or Mrdi Gras Motorsports (plus a few others). This is a replacement cat, not a de-cat, and is theoretically still legal, as it is basically a free-er flowing cat, so you get similar gains to a de-cat, but stay on the legal side (just) on the emissions thing.
You pay though, RRR have one, very good, for around £270.00.
[This message has been edited by IntegraR (edited 20 June 2001).]
Its just a straight through piece of pipe, with ends flanged to fit exactly, and with a silencer around the outside, so you dont hear any diffs.
It really makes the VTEC cross over more apparent, and adds a bit to overall performance, without overly affecting the engine characteristics or dynamics in any way, just adds a slight performance boost, but worth it.
When you go for MOT, take the boxed cat, hand it to Honda, and tell them to refit it, though you will then need to refit the de-cat after, but its only once a year.
Legal alternative is available from RRR Motorsports, or Mrdi Gras Motorsports (plus a few others). This is a replacement cat, not a de-cat, and is theoretically still legal, as it is basically a free-er flowing cat, so you get similar gains to a de-cat, but stay on the legal side (just) on the emissions thing.
You pay though, RRR have one, very good, for around £270.00.
[This message has been edited by IntegraR (edited 20 June 2001).]
20 June 2001, 03:59 PM
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Congrats on a great car!
Agree that the titanium gearknob is nice, but it's so fkucing cold during winter time!!! And then the Scoob is a bit more enjoyable as well.... (when the ground is covered with white stuff, that is.)
Actually considered the Integra b4 I bought the Scoob, but I guess my girlfriend talked me away from it. and Might be my next car though!
Knowing Roger Moen (who's now in a Pug in BTCC) has got me into many different Honda's, and the Integra is by far the most involving of any vtecs I've driven. Accord R has a smaller vtec zone to play with, the S2000 is much more civilised, while the vti's, well - they're in a lesser league.
First time you hear the Integra scream really is a special experience, and you just have to go there again and again! Overtaking with tired passengers (who maybe would like to sleep a bit) isn't very easy though.....
Have fun!
Simen.
Agree that the titanium gearknob is nice, but it's so fkucing cold during winter time!!! And then the Scoob is a bit more enjoyable as well.... (when the ground is covered with white stuff, that is.)
Actually considered the Integra b4 I bought the Scoob, but I guess my girlfriend talked me away from it.
and Might be my next car though!Knowing Roger Moen (who's now in a Pug in BTCC) has got me into many different Honda's, and the Integra is by far the most involving of any vtecs I've driven. Accord R has a smaller vtec zone to play with, the S2000 is much more civilised, while the vti's, well - they're in a lesser league.
First time you hear the Integra scream really is a special experience, and you just have to go there again and again! Overtaking with tired passengers (who maybe would like to sleep a bit) isn't very easy though.....
Have fun!
Simen.
20 June 2001, 04:01 PM
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ok
any recommendations as to people who do the work ?
as for getting it added for the MOT - my bike got its first mot last week. Took the standard cans in with me (got some very noisey options fitted), handed them to the guy to "fit for the mot". Funnily enough they were still very cold when he handed them back with the mot certificate. ahem
jon
any recommendations as to people who do the work ?
as for getting it added for the MOT - my bike got its first mot last week. Took the standard cans in with me (got some very noisey options fitted), handed them to the guy to "fit for the mot". Funnily enough they were still very cold when he handed them back with the mot certificate. ahem
jon
20 June 2001, 04:05 PM
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Jon, no real preference as to who does the work, any exhaust, MOT place will do it, as it is simply a case of lift the car - unbolt - bolt on, so its pretty basic.
You do have to be a little careful though, as it is from the front of the cat that you get the springs that allow movement between the exhaust and the manifold, so you dont want some muppet place doing it that wont get the tension right (results in a rattely sound when slowing down on the gears, but doesnt do damage if you sort it straight away).
Ultimately, its so easy, you shouldnt have a prob, but dont let them rip you off, should only cost about a 20 to fit.
Edited to fix spelling, the faster I type, the worse it gets.
[This message has been edited by IntegraR (edited 20 June 2001).]
You do have to be a little careful though, as it is from the front of the cat that you get the springs that allow movement between the exhaust and the manifold, so you dont want some muppet place doing it that wont get the tension right (results in a rattely sound when slowing down on the gears, but doesnt do damage if you sort it straight away).
Ultimately, its so easy, you shouldnt have a prob, but dont let them rip you off, should only cost about a 20 to fit.
Edited to fix spelling, the faster I type, the worse it gets.
[This message has been edited by IntegraR (edited 20 June 2001).]
20 June 2001, 04:27 PM
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well i thought that the integra was a blinding car. it has the slickest gearbox i have ever driven with, perfectly weighted and the throw length between the gears was spot on.
the 4 pot snarl is simply amazing, believe me if i could have kept mine longer then i would..........
the 4 pot snarl is simply amazing, believe me if i could have kept mine longer then i would..........
20 June 2001, 04:50 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Diablo:
<B>Ok, here we go.
Where the Honda does suffer, though, is around the 5,500 to 6,500 range where there appears to be a hole in the power and torque curves. Generally though, due to light weight, fairly rapid progress can be made below 6000 rpm in the Honda, but its no match for the Scooby in the mid range.
D[/quote]
Thats interesting - think you'll find thats the revs they use for exhaust gas emissions test in Japan. They lower the power somehow to get it through!! My Honda motorbike has the same problem - as do most Jap motorbikes. I imagine its exhaust tuning related!!
Great comparisons by the way!
Jza
<B>Ok, here we go.
Where the Honda does suffer, though, is around the 5,500 to 6,500 range where there appears to be a hole in the power and torque curves. Generally though, due to light weight, fairly rapid progress can be made below 6000 rpm in the Honda, but its no match for the Scooby in the mid range.
D[/quote]
Thats interesting - think you'll find thats the revs they use for exhaust gas emissions test in Japan. They lower the power somehow to get it through!! My Honda motorbike has the same problem - as do most Jap motorbikes. I imagine its exhaust tuning related!!
Great comparisons by the way!
Jza
20 June 2001, 05:07 PM
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I found the Integra started to loose it's edge when you put more weight in it... passengers or luggage, for instance. The scoobies larger reserve of torque reduces the impact of extra weight better than the vtec. Vtec is a real hoot though.
21 June 2001, 11:09 AM
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LOL @ Spudgun
Ahem, how many people are holding back from saying TOLD YOU SO!!!!
Moray, Integra is all about power to weight. As weight is low, any additions have bigger effect % wise, so more impact felt on performance.
Just done 100 motorway miles with no noise/comfort probs at all.
Ahem, how many people are holding back from saying TOLD YOU SO!!!!
Moray, Integra is all about power to weight. As weight is low, any additions have bigger effect % wise, so more impact felt on performance.
Just done 100 motorway miles with no noise/comfort probs at all.
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