22B Gearbox issues??
08 June 2001, 09:30 PM
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My 22b ,35K on it, has started to develop a notchy and sticky Gearbox in 1st and 3rd.
Dealer changed the gearbox oil today but not convinced. Have also been advised by a well respected 3rd party that it could be the synchro wearing due to quickshift, does any body have any comments or experience of similar problems?
Additionally does a link really improve the 22b as much as stated, my car is a type UK totally standard apart from exhaust system.
Geoff
Dealer changed the gearbox oil today but not convinced. Have also been advised by a well respected 3rd party that it could be the synchro wearing due to quickshift, does any body have any comments or experience of similar problems?
Additionally does a link really improve the 22b as much as stated, my car is a type UK totally standard apart from exhaust system.
Geoff
08 June 2001, 10:26 PM
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Geoff,
Presuming the Subaru gearbox syncromesh works in a similar way to a Ford RWD gearbox (I've stripped and rebuilt those, but not a Subaru box), then yes the quickshift could well be the cause of the premature wear of the baulk rings on the synchro in your gear box.
If you consider that a brisk gearchange (speed of gear lever movement) in a quickshift equipped car, is probably akin to a racing change with a normal lever assembly.
When you move the lever, the speed of movement of the synchro hub along the gearbox main shaft and the speed at which this 'collides' with the baulk ring and ultimately the synchro teeth on the respective gear will be increased when using a quickshift, if the drivers hand speed remains constant, compared to a 'slower' standard gear lever.
Without realising it, you are making your gearbox change far quicker than would otherwise be physically possible to do with the std lever.
If you think of it, somewhat exaggeratedly, as if every time you changed gear you attempted the rip the lever out of the box lightning quick, that b*s**rd isn't beating me type gearchange, you wouldn't drive your car like that all the time, if you had the slightest amount of mechanical sympathy towards your car.
In not quite so melodramtic a way, that is what you are doing on every change with the quickshift, unless of course you are deliberately changing slowly to save the synchros. But if you are, then why have a quickshift?
These are only my thoughts on the subject as a mechanical engineer, and the reason I DO NOT want a quickshift on my Impreza (not got the strongest gear box in the world, has it?).
Cheers MTR
Presuming the Subaru gearbox syncromesh works in a similar way to a Ford RWD gearbox (I've stripped and rebuilt those, but not a Subaru box), then yes the quickshift could well be the cause of the premature wear of the baulk rings on the synchro in your gear box.
If you consider that a brisk gearchange (speed of gear lever movement) in a quickshift equipped car, is probably akin to a racing change with a normal lever assembly.
When you move the lever, the speed of movement of the synchro hub along the gearbox main shaft and the speed at which this 'collides' with the baulk ring and ultimately the synchro teeth on the respective gear will be increased when using a quickshift, if the drivers hand speed remains constant, compared to a 'slower' standard gear lever.
Without realising it, you are making your gearbox change far quicker than would otherwise be physically possible to do with the std lever.
If you think of it, somewhat exaggeratedly, as if every time you changed gear you attempted the rip the lever out of the box lightning quick, that b*s**rd isn't beating me type gearchange, you wouldn't drive your car like that all the time, if you had the slightest amount of mechanical sympathy towards your car.
In not quite so melodramtic a way, that is what you are doing on every change with the quickshift, unless of course you are deliberately changing slowly to save the synchros. But if you are, then why have a quickshift?
These are only my thoughts on the subject as a mechanical engineer, and the reason I DO NOT want a quickshift on my Impreza (not got the strongest gear box in the world, has it?).
Cheers MTR
08 June 2001, 11:04 PM
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Geoff
Repeated quick changes with quickshifts desroys the baulk rings. They are finely grooved on the inner face and the groove assists with the dispersal of oil and allows the baulk ring to take effect. The rapid changes that MTR refers to puts excessive forces upon these relatively fragile components which results in premature failure. Thats why I would not fit one to a vehicle not covered by warranty.
Anyway, when we take delivery of our two tutonic rear engined sports coupes in 12 months, we will have a tiptronic box and can abuse it for years without fear of such symptoms.
Mike@PD
Repeated quick changes with quickshifts desroys the baulk rings. They are finely grooved on the inner face and the groove assists with the dispersal of oil and allows the baulk ring to take effect. The rapid changes that MTR refers to puts excessive forces upon these relatively fragile components which results in premature failure. Thats why I would not fit one to a vehicle not covered by warranty.
Anyway, when we take delivery of our two tutonic rear engined sports coupes in 12 months, we will have a tiptronic box and can abuse it for years without fear of such symptoms.
Mike@PD
08 June 2001, 11:33 PM
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Mike,
Sssssshhhh!!!!! the wife might hear and you wouldnt want that would you.
Has anyone heard of a syncro problem on 98/99 cars? I recall something on the board previously
Geoff
Sssssshhhh!!!!! the wife might hear and you wouldnt want that would you.
Has anyone heard of a syncro problem on 98/99 cars? I recall something on the board previously
Geoff
08 June 2001, 11:48 PM
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Geoff,
Now that you mention it....
By the way, how are those slicks mate? They looked gorgeous. I thought you had forgotten about them. I was thinking about making them into a coffeee table for my front room
Got to work this morning and they had gone
Scotty
Now that you mention it....
By the way, how are those slicks mate? They looked gorgeous. I thought you had forgotten about them. I was thinking about making them into a coffeee table for my front room
Got to work this morning and they had gone
Scotty
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09 June 2001, 02:59 AM
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Hello MTR
I don't want to argue with you (I know what your like )I just wanted to make the point that if the thousands of quickshift kits in use were wrecking gearboxes in as little as 30K miles then the Scoobynet community would have picked up on it by know.
By the way ,like yourself I understand how a gearbox works and agree that the quickshift can wear the synchros faster than standard but it very much depends on the habits of the driver.
I used to have a quickshift on a mk2 golf and changed very slowly when stuck in traffic,and very fast when in super-persuit-mode.I can't see that this would cause much more wear than normal.It was possible to beat the syncro with both the standard and modded levers if I tried hard enough so the quickshift didn't necessarily mean I was changing faster ,it just felt like it.
Another point to consider is the extra effort needed to change gear,due to the decreased leverage.I don't think you can simply say people will move the lever at the same speed after fitting a quickshift as they did before because to do so feels a lot more abusive to the car.I would have thought most people would change gear, not at a certain speed, but with a certain level of force.Eg in my car it can be fairly hard to change to first and second so I press gently and give the syncros time to catch up.
Talking generally its crap drivers that wear syncros out.A good driver will subconsciously match the revs to the road speed leaving the syncros with little or no work to do.Crap drivers don't do this so the syncros have to slow the two shafts spinning at vastly different speeds giving them a lot of work to do on every change.
One more thing. Geoff has a problem with 1st gear which rarely sees the abuse that 2nd and 3rd see so I'd be surprised if the quick shift was causing that particular problem
Cheers Andy
I don't want to argue with you (I know what your like
)I just wanted to make the point that if the thousands of quickshift kits in use were wrecking gearboxes in as little as 30K miles then the Scoobynet community would have picked up on it by know.By the way ,like yourself I understand how a gearbox works and agree that the quickshift can wear the synchros faster than standard but it very much depends on the habits of the driver.
I used to have a quickshift on a mk2 golf and changed very slowly when stuck in traffic,and very fast when in super-persuit-mode.I can't see that this would cause much more wear than normal.It was possible to beat the syncro with both the standard and modded levers if I tried hard enough so the quickshift didn't necessarily mean I was changing faster ,it just felt like it.
Another point to consider is the extra effort needed to change gear,due to the decreased leverage.I don't think you can simply say people will move the lever at the same speed after fitting a quickshift as they did before because to do so feels a lot more abusive to the car.I would have thought most people would change gear, not at a certain speed, but with a certain level of force.Eg in my car it can be fairly hard to change to first and second so I press gently and give the syncros time to catch up.
Talking generally its crap drivers that wear syncros out.A good driver will subconsciously match the revs to the road speed leaving the syncros with little or no work to do.Crap drivers don't do this so the syncros have to slow the two shafts spinning at vastly different speeds giving them a lot of work to do on every change.
One more thing. Geoff has a problem with 1st gear which rarely sees the abuse that 2nd and 3rd see so I'd be surprised if the quick shift was causing that particular problem
Cheers Andy
09 June 2001, 09:31 AM
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Andy,
I don't want an argument either, they get tiresome, and its nice to know that you do understand whats going in within your gear box, because that allows you to moderate the use of your equipment (sounds rude) 
any show some mechanical sympathy.
So you, Mike@PD, myself and Geoffs informant all agree that the quickshifts can increase wear on the gearbox components.
I must admit it made me wonder when Geoff said it was 1st and 3rd gears that were crunchy, as I agree when are you likely to knacker 1st gear synchro?
Maybe its a selector fork problem, but as I have said I don't know how thge Impreza box is built, and which synchro hubs work with which gears.
But in answer to Geoffs question about quickshifts and increased wear, then I gave MY opinion, for what its worth.
The point I was trying to pick up on, wasn't specifically the quickshift, when I posted the 2nd reply, it was that some of the kit available from Prodrive MAY increase the wear and tear on our cars.
Mike Wood from Prodrive on this thread
I don't want an argument either,
they get tiresome, and its nice to know that you do understand whats going in within your gear box, because that allows you to moderate the use of your equipment (sounds rude) any show some mechanical sympathy.So you, Mike@PD, myself and Geoffs informant all agree that the quickshifts can increase wear on the gearbox components.
I must admit it made me wonder when Geoff said it was 1st and 3rd gears that were crunchy, as I agree when are you likely to knacker 1st gear synchro?
Maybe its a selector fork problem, but as I have said I don't know how thge Impreza box is built, and which synchro hubs work with which gears.
But in answer to Geoffs question about quickshifts and increased wear, then I gave MY opinion, for what its worth.
The point I was trying to pick up on, wasn't specifically the quickshift, when I posted the 2nd reply, it was that some of the kit available from Prodrive MAY increase the wear and tear on our cars.
Mike Wood from Prodrive on this thread
09 June 2001, 12:15 PM
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Andy,
Prodrive supply Subarus customers (us), with products that WE have demanded through our dealers.
They are simply fulfilling a comercial arrangement with Subaru (It is they, not Prodrive that stand the cost of any warranty claims), designed to enhance customer satisfaction with their car, and increase customer demand for the product (the cars).
Subaru in conjunction with Prodrive are marketing a 'rally car' with the Impreza Turbo, and allow us to play at being rally drivers by condoning and actually supplying all the associated guff we expect.
Big brakes (like the Alcon ones that allegedly wreck the P1's wheels), rally jackets, spoilers lights, sunglasses, engine upgrades, noisy exhausts, oily air filters that mess the MAF sensors, Oh sorry I forgot they have been witdrawn now haven't they, etc
When you have paid in excess of £200 for a Prodrive quick shift (excellent bit of gear by the way, no pun intended), as well as paying + £5000 over a EU import, on the price of your UK Turbo with its 3 years, 60,000 mile or 2 gearboxes, which ever come first warranty, the cost of an occasional gearbox is more than made up by the increased sales generated by the popularity of the car.
If we were not allowed to touch them at all, they may not carry quite the same kudos.
I've got an Impreza Turbo, Prodrived, is bound to impress the boys in the pub.
And so it should, as Prodrive are without doubt one of the leading competition car manufactures in the world.
Even I have a Prodrive PPP back box on my car, and it took me 3 years 8 months to get hold of one. I'm well chuffed. Sad really, isn't it. Such is the power of a name.
But funnily enough their works prepared million pound budget run WRC Subarus break down, just like all the other teams.
I like to modify my cars, in fact I have NEVER driven a completely strandard car in my life.
But I accept that certain 'enhancements' may well shorten the life expectancy of some of my cars components, even the bodyshell for example.
Try running a 7 year old MK1 Mexico on 260/60 (I think thats the correct number) Bilsteins, with 170lbs/in springs, and watch your inner wings start to detach from the car after 12 months of road rallying.
I personnaly didn't do that, I ran softer springs and dampers, (not as good?) to make my car stay in one piece.
But the Works Escorts had gear like that, and every 5 events the shells had to be restraightened by Gartrac.
It is Subaru NOT Prodrive that sell us the fancy kit really, even if the cheque is made out to Prodrive, because it strengthens Subarus image, and sells cars.
Cheers MTR
Prodrive supply Subarus customers (us), with products that WE have demanded through our dealers.
They are simply fulfilling a comercial arrangement with Subaru (It is they, not Prodrive that stand the cost of any warranty claims), designed to enhance customer satisfaction with their car, and increase customer demand for the product (the cars).
Subaru in conjunction with Prodrive are marketing a 'rally car' with the Impreza Turbo, and allow us to play at being rally drivers by condoning and actually supplying all the associated guff we expect.
Big brakes (like the Alcon ones that allegedly wreck the P1's wheels), rally jackets, spoilers lights, sunglasses, engine upgrades, noisy exhausts, oily air filters that mess the MAF sensors, Oh sorry I forgot they have been witdrawn now haven't they, etc
When you have paid in excess of £200 for a Prodrive quick shift (excellent bit of gear by the way, no pun intended), as well as paying + £5000 over a EU import, on the price of your UK Turbo with its 3 years, 60,000 mile or 2 gearboxes, which ever come first warranty, the cost of an occasional gearbox is more than made up by the increased sales generated by the popularity of the car.
If we were not allowed to touch them at all, they may not carry quite the same kudos.
I've got an Impreza Turbo, Prodrived, is bound to impress the boys in the pub.
And so it should, as Prodrive are without doubt one of the leading competition car manufactures in the world.
Even I have a Prodrive PPP back box on my car, and it took me 3 years 8 months to get hold of one. I'm well chuffed. Sad really, isn't it. Such is the power of a name.
But funnily enough their works prepared million pound budget run WRC Subarus break down, just like all the other teams.
I like to modify my cars, in fact I have NEVER driven a completely strandard car in my life.
But I accept that certain 'enhancements' may well shorten the life expectancy of some of my cars components, even the bodyshell for example.
Try running a 7 year old MK1 Mexico on 260/60 (I think thats the correct number) Bilsteins, with 170lbs/in springs, and watch your inner wings start to detach from the car after 12 months of road rallying.
I personnaly didn't do that, I ran softer springs and dampers, (not as good?) to make my car stay in one piece.
But the Works Escorts had gear like that, and every 5 events the shells had to be restraightened by Gartrac.
It is Subaru NOT Prodrive that sell us the fancy kit really, even if the cheque is made out to Prodrive, because it strengthens Subarus image, and sells cars.
Cheers MTR
09 June 2001, 04:32 PM
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Hi ther Geoff.....how was the stag night??
I have a similar problem(4th gear) on my 98 type r...I changed the oil which has made it alittle better but not fully...Its going in on the 18th for a strip down
see you soon
TIMO
I have a similar problem(4th gear) on my 98 type r...I changed the oil which has made it alittle better but not fully...Its going in on the 18th for a strip down
see you soon
TIMO
09 June 2001, 11:06 PM
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Hi Timo
Stag night in LA last Saturday was cool, but the strip joint was a better class than the ones here (6ft blonde californians by the lorry load}
It appears from speaking to other owners that my 22b isnt the only one suffering from these symptoms (a Straw poll of 4 other cars)
I bought the car with 25,000 mls on it and am led to believe that it is one used in various press articles - used to be T22BUK- on the front of last year's evo calender.
It is indeed my view that as a consequennce the gearbox could indeed have suffered as a result of a lack of mechanical sympathy from previous "test drivers".
This however is not my problem I assume that these articles were fully supported and I enjoy the benefit of a 5 yr unlimited mileage warranty. The gearbox is certainly showing signs of wear and my dealer appears to be not too interested, this pisses me off to be frank (my next car is on order and it is NOT a Subaru).
Would people like to throw thier 2 pennethworth in
Geoff
Stag night in LA last Saturday was cool, but the strip joint was a better class than the ones here (6ft blonde californians by the lorry load}
It appears from speaking to other owners that my 22b isnt the only one suffering from these symptoms (a Straw poll of 4 other cars)
I bought the car with 25,000 mls on it and am led to believe that it is one used in various press articles - used to be T22BUK- on the front of last year's evo calender.
It is indeed my view that as a consequennce the gearbox could indeed have suffered as a result of a lack of mechanical sympathy from previous "test drivers".
This however is not my problem I assume that these articles were fully supported and I enjoy the benefit of a 5 yr unlimited mileage warranty. The gearbox is certainly showing signs of wear and my dealer appears to be not too interested, this pisses me off to be frank (my next car is on order and it is NOT a Subaru).
Would people like to throw thier 2 pennethworth in
Geoff
10 June 2001, 12:13 PM
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hi
I have a MY99 Uk Turbo.
I have the QS fitted (and I love it).
from 3rd to 4th causes a grating noise.
I assume this to be the synchros.. as the noise is louder at higher revs, but still there at lower revs.
My car is in for changing the clutch under warranty soon.. so will ask about the grating noise too.
I have a MY99 Uk Turbo.
I have the QS fitted (and I love it).
from 3rd to 4th causes a grating noise.
I assume this to be the synchros.. as the noise is louder at higher revs, but still there at lower revs.
My car is in for changing the clutch under warranty soon.. so will ask about the grating noise too.
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