WokaImp

Hi,

Purchased a '99 mint condition unmodified Impreza 2Ltr AWD.
Ran like a dream...until I took it to a track.

Lost compression on 2 cylinders...one con rod went and one big end. Totalled the engine...was a fun 1hr on the track mind you. Completely self inflicted on every single level

So, my lovely Impreza is in a garage waiting for a rebuild.

I have 4 options:

1. Rebuild with like for like components: £1700
2. Rebuild with upgraded race pistols, con rods, crank shaft, oil pump and oil sump baffle: £3000
3. Rebuild to 2.1Ltr with upgraded race pistols, con rods, 2.5 Ltr crank shaft, oil pump and oil sump baffle: £3200
4. "New" 2.5Ltr race engine that's only done 8 x 10 mile sprints. The guy who had it custom built now wants a better engine in his car: £2400

All costs include parts and labour.

I am not sure what the 2.5Ltr race engine would be like? Could this have the potential to damage my clutch and 5 speed gearbox over a period of time?

The car is 99% road use and maybe a day or two at a track a year.
I have been racing tracks since I was a little whipper snapper...but never in my own car.

Cheers,

Woka

Brun

Who is building the engine would be my first question?
Don't think the 5 speed will last long with a 2.5 depending what power you are planning to run. Don't forget your box is 15 years old!

Tidgy

For track use get expert advice, a race/track car is a different animal to a road car, lots of considerations such as heat etc etc

My advice would be to get a spec put together along with the right supporting mods by a tuner who knows what there doing.

Carnut

Option 1. Will give you a good car to sell down the line (mint standard classics getting harder to find)

Option 2. Will give you a more reliable car that will have greater potential to tune down the line (you wouldn't be the first to get the bug and empty your pockets at it.)

Option 3. 4. Will give you a car that will ultimately become a money pit, ie gearbox clutch brakes etc.

WokaImp

Thanks for all your advice.

Yea. That was my logic and I instantly dismissed that as an option.

The car is being fixed by Richard Henry Motorsport: http://www.richardhenrymotorsport.co.uk/

Absolutely agree with this. It was never my intention to buy/build a track car. One day I had no car, the next an Impreza, then I saw a track day...as I said...completely self inflicted

Front suspension and brakes are probably the 1st upgrade I should do for future open track days. The brakes just didn't cut it imo. As I said in my 1st email it's a 99.99% road car, then maybe once a year an open track day for special occasions.

Interesting you mentioned cooling...what aspect of cooling would need to be upgraded?

I am leaning towards the £3000 build...same sized engine, just with meatier race components.
I think that any upgrade to torque/bhp will result in other components of the car failing.

Lunchmoney

(Bearing in mind I know little about engines )
If you can afford your option 3, go for option 4 and spend the left over on gearbox and clutch.

WokaImp

£3k is really my limit at the moment.
The car only cost me £2k, so can't justify throwing thousands at it.
Maybe towards the end of the year.

How much for a new gearbox and clutch? £800? I would have thought it would have been way more than that.
Wouldn't other components start stressing with this like drive shaft and various other components that are still 15 years old?

Carnut

Richard Henry if you are comfortable with spending £3000 then thats the one I would pick. With regards to cooling, Richard Henry will have that covered but more bhp = more cooling. The top mount ic has its limits and for big bhp you will need a front mount ic.

p.s options 3. 4. are going to be serious cars that need serious money and not a nice classic for the road. Option 2. will give you a starting point to go for bigger bhp down the line .

WokaImp

They've been recommended to me by pretty much everyone I've mentioned them to Very friendly bunch and gave me a tour of destroyed Impreza engines that they're repairing. Don't often get impressed by a "garage".

I'd rather not spend anything to be honest...but I know if I go for the "cheap" option then I just may regret it further down the line.
Do things right, or don't do them at all.

Richard Henry's did mentioned new turbo fan and components if doing a full ECU upgrade to 280bph...but again, this will probably be towards the end of the year, or maybe even next...so didn't go into to much detail with them.

LuckyWelshchap

Does that include increased running costs such as Insurance and fuel?

Not saying this applies to you but given that threads like this are helpful to others suppose someone takes out a loan to pay for it, that's extra outlay per month. If the Insco adds a couple of hundred to the premium that's another £20-ish and if consumption drops only 2-3/gallon that's 10% extra on the fuel bill.
It could easily add up to an extra £200/mth (depending upon the loan terms of course).

Carnut

£3000 gives him a more robust engine with the potential of bigger bhp down the line, not sure there is a power upgrade included at this point.

joe v3sti

iTrader: (8)

Hiya personally I would go for option 2 which will give you some options further down the line. Either way which ever route you go down I can assure you that you are in the best of hands with the guys over at Richatd Henry's ! Great choice!

Joe

WokaImp

Nope. Didn't take that into account, but others might need to. My home is my office, so the car is a lifestyle car...no commuting, so fuel costs don't really come into it. Obviously insurance does and I've just been hit with £800 insurance. 15 years driving...never had a bump or points in my life...but driving my other halfs company car for 3 years, and not having my own insurance, basically reduced me to 0 no claims discount. EVRY unhappy at this. Some insurance companies wouldn't even insure me! Definitely something others will need to think about.
On the track it emptied 1/2 the tank in 26 miles

Thanks.
I think this pretty much nails it for me.

There is no power upgrade at this point. It will still be a 2ltr, 220 bhp, car. The £850 ECU and turbo upgrade will come later.

If I hadn't just bought loads of snowboarding gear then I would have got this done at the same time as the engine rebuild...but I can wait...

Carnut

You will need to run the engine in before you think about power upgrades anyway.

Aaron1978

iTrader: (12)

You may as well go the 2.1 route for the sake of £200.

WokaImp

What's the benefit of this?
More torque, less revs due to the bigger stroke from the 2.5 crank shaft?

Is this just as easy to upgrade further down the line?

The car handled, and ran, beautifully before the engine decided to digest itself. One of the best cars I've ever driven. Is there any need to change from something that "worked" fine before?

That £200 can be put towards the ECU upgrade.

One thing I definitely don't want to do is to cause a knock on effect that potentially means I have to replace more parts.
While I don't mind spending £3k on a rebuild...I'd rather not push all my disposable cash into the car...at this point anyways.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Yep I'd go 2.1 for the sake of 200 quid.

The cooling aspect is with regards to the spec of the build which will relate to what it is predominantly to be used for.

A race engine is a totally different animal to a road engine, piston, rod, crank clearances will all be different, which again depends on the parts used and the materials they are made from, which will aid cooling in an engine that is going to spend it's life at full chat.

Mechanical sympathy is a term I think the OP needs to familiarise himself with or things are going to get VERY expensive.

WokaImp

What's your logic for this choice?
0.1 Ltr extra for £200?...or are we talking general engine performance and running?

Edit: I am intrigued at why some recommend the 2.1 upgrade and some the straight meatier engine component upgrade. It's all valuable info to me as this level of customization isn't something I've really got into with engines. Will the 2.1 be better at handling the ECU upgrade?

lol...tbh I think I need to familiarize myself with driving an Impreza and calming myself down. Never had so much fun in a car. All race protocols, tactics and cornering simply went out of the window after the 1st few corners...I had two modes...foot not on accelerator...foot full on accelerator in 2nd and 3rd.
For 30mins I was just Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee....then paid the price for it

Tidgy

oil temp is biggest issue, although top mount may struggle with cooling inlet temps.

Tidgy

do you actualy know what failed/caused the failure?

Carnut

The 2.0 (option 2) will have the potential for big bhp but the 2.1 will have the potential for bigger bhp.

The question you need to ask your self is how big will you go. Will you be willing to spend the extra money the 2.1 is capable of .

Down the line you may want really big bhp and if you have not gone for the 2.1 then you might regret it. Like wise down the line if you do not go for big bhp and maybe just a map or standard then you will wish you had the standard setup when it comes to selling.

Keep it 2.0 I say, leave the 2.1 and so on for the big boys who like the extreme world of modding.

Henrik

iTrader: (5)

With the 2.1 you will gain extra torque, and reduce turbo lag. I've had both a 2.0 and a 2.1, and the 2.1 was "better" to drive IMO from a torque point of view.

Both the 2.0 and the 2.1 should be as reliable.

Silver Scooby Sport

iTrader: (15)

Option 2 would get my vote since you are tracking it but going off on a tangent for a second as the build is also being considered around some track use don't get hung up on big power and chasing a figure. Reliability is king and also for fast road consider the suspension set up and brakes as that will allow you to go faster than another 50bhp. Step back and make a rough plan first for the bigger picture.

WokaImp

General opinion is that it was caused by dropping it down a gear while in high revs.
It was at Croft rally track, near Darlington. Great track and has a lot of tight bends. So for maybe 0.5 miles there was no time to change up and so the engine was constantly in very high revs...how high, no idea, was having to much fun.

I never intended to mod the car...but I am looking at an £850 ECU and turbo fan upgrade. I think that takes it to 280bhp.
I have 0 intention of taking this any further than this, or kitting it out as a track car.
Main aim is to get me snowboarding and to Ikea, while being incredibly fun to drive...and maybe the odd track day once a year.

I definitely want to look at the brakes at some point....probably best to do before the ECU upgrade.

Thanks everyone for the advice and tips.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Which ever option you take you will NEED to look at the cooling if you're going on track.

Forged or not, an engine that is running on oil at a temp that is outside of it's effective range or where inlet temps aren't under control will go bang too!! Track work is cruel on cars with respect to temps as you've found out the hard way!

A really good forged build on the 2ltr with a FMIC and oil cooler would be a nice car and *might* not even crucify your clutch and gearbox if you're not running a big turbo.

Best of luck

Carnut

Which ever path you take make sure to let us know, and put some pics up so we can have a nosey.

WokaImp

I believe it is a forged build on the 2ltr. No mention of an oil cooler though, just an oil pump upgrade. I'll enquire about that tmrw.
Do you have any useful links on them?

Aye, absolutely. I think I'm set on option 2. Rebuild with race internals, but keeping it at 2ltr. Same car I had before...just more robust.

Richard Henry's take photos from start to finish of the rebuild, so I should have plenty to show.

JGlanzaV

iTrader: (3)

I've got a 2.1 and its been a brillliant engine. *touch wood* done 20k+ miles on an open deck block at 500hp and still going strong.

Gearbox, clutch and turbo have all given up before the engine lol

jonnyricer2

iTrader: (9)

It's a slippery slope you say 280 bhp you ll be sticking to but one track day turns into two etc then its hmmm
330 hp then 400, you will get used to the power!!

I would go 2.1.

WokaImp

That did cross my mind...but...I think if I was going to build a track car then I would buy a special dedicated track car and mod it. I can't get dragged too far off track as at the end of the day this is supposed to be my simple run around car. Already been off the road for over a month. Can't afford that to happen that often.
I already race in the British and European Pro Kart championship races and that isn't cheap so I don't fancy taking up another more expensive motorsport...just yet

From all your comments it seems like you are all split almost 50/50 between the 2Ltr and the 2.1Ltr. Typical

Last few questions:

1. Why would the 2Ltr be more resellable? Is this purely because it's the "default" engine in a classic Impreza?
2. I am assuming that the 2.1Ltr is just as customizable as the 2Ltr further down the line?
3. The only real difference I can see from what people have said is that the 2.1Ltr will be able to produce and handle more Bhp with mods than the 2Ltr...plus slightly higher torque, slightly less revs. Any ideas at how much more torque? 5%?
4. Is the 2.1 rebuild basically what is referred to as a 2.1 stroker kit?

Rather than pros, I should probably ask the cons of each engine as that may be simpler.

I need to make a decision today so the paper work can be done tomorrow and the work on my car can start on Monday.
I am still on the side of the 2ltr option, rather than 2.1.


Thanks for your help.