New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Hi all,

I'm not sure I can compete with the interest generated by some of the "Big Power" conversions that have been posted on here, but I have a project in mind that I thought might be of interest to members and would also welcome some advice and input from those who have been down the tuning route before. At the very least, you could offer sugestions on how to spend my hard earned!

First some info about the car and I, by way of establishing the rationale and objectives for the project. It's a MY99, standard at the moment except for a H&S backbox, uprated Pagid Black pads, soon to be replaced Bridgestone tyres for Eagle F1s, with a lazer geometry set up, and a Exedy Organic clutch.

It's a very lightly used example, having done only 21k miles. I've had the car for about a year, It's not a "workhorse" or commuting car- I use it purely for fun and getting around in my time off. I love it to bits, but would like to have a little bit of a fiddle with it to create an optimal "real world, real budget" example of the classic scooby. Here are the project criteria:

1) It must remain reliable. I like having a car where you can take its reliability for granted- I dont want it off the road with nagging problems every 5 minutes! I'm a careful, conscientious owner...I hope. The car is always warmed up properly and allowed to cool down, it's been only run on Optimax and serviced with Silkolene Pro S 10w 50 oil at what equates to 3000 mile intervals. It's had a MAF and Lamda sensor change as a precaution not long after I got it, and its spark plugs, fluids etc.. done as well as the cambelt.

It may be a "leisure car", but I'm not fortunate enough to be on a salary where I can just shrug off re-builds etc… Above all, it would also be a shame to hurt one of the last remaining low milage classic scoobies!
2) This is not a glass ceiling budget project. The aim is to keep to a realistic budget of, ideally, under what I would have paid for the PPP package, but produce something superior!

3) I'm going for drivability and real world performance I'm not chasing headline bhp figures. To my way of thinking, what I'm after translates to tightening up the chassis slightly, a sensible increase in bhp, a nice boost in torque and extending the powerband to cover as much of the rev range as possible, whilst retaining smoothness and low speed manners. Like I said above: like PPP, but better! I'm after a bit more of the "shove in the back" I'd be happy with 260+ bhp and a similar, if not greater, figure for the torque.

4) Apart from the uprated clutch I do not want to have to further uprate the transmission.

Here's the plan so far, with associated questions. I've put it in stages so as to break up the costs. A proviso, of course, being that the car will run without issue between the stages.

Stage 1: Install front and rear uprated ARBs ( Whiteline 22mm adjustable rear, 22 fixed front). I'm generally very happy with Scooby's handling, but I'd just like to take out some of the body roll, and also some of the initial understeer. I've heard nothing but good comments about this mod in the above respects and think it'll complement the good tyres and geometry set up nicely.

Stage 2: Decat centre pipe and install uprated Samco intercooler to turbo hose. I understand that the car will be fine without a remap on just the downpipe cat and replacing the hose is just getting some preparation for the eventual remap underway- I've heard that the std hose is prone to splitting at increased boost levels. I would like to hear input as to what the optimum diameter centre pipe, and the downpipe is, given my aspirations for the cars development (2.5 or 3inch)?

Stage 3: subject to ECU choice, Install boost guage and a knocklink.

Stage 4: Install uprated fuel pump

Stage 5: Install wrapped decat downpipe. Then very shortly after.....

Stage 6: Remap time! This is where I'm in a bit of a quandry! I've done a bit of investigating and am not sure whether to opt for an Ecutek3 remap, or go for an Apexi Power FC. I've heard good arguments in favour of both. There seems to be a body of thought that says that the Apexi PFC is the better option for the classic scoobies, whereas the Ecutek is best for 01> onwards (assuming your not going to modify too extensively). I know that the Apexi ECU with the commander would probably eliminate the need for a knocklink and a boost guage as I understand the CEL is used to indicate any knock and -I'm assuming- that the hand commander can display data like boost pressure. However, I've heard concerns raised about loosing the in-built safety features of the std ECU, although I'm not exactly sure what this entails? Also, it seems as if getting a 3 port boost solenoid at the same time as the remap is a good idea? Any comments on this?

Anyway, I'd welcome any advice/suggestions/comments/reccomendations you care to give me.

All the best,

Paul.

Carlos13

Powerstation don't recommend pairing a 22mm rear bar with a 22mm front bar. To help get rid of understeer you need a stiffer bar on the back. I have standard front bar, 22mm adjustable rear on the middle setting.

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

Sounds like a de-cat + remap job.

RE: mapping, what MY is your car?

RE: reliability, increasing the power is going to eat into the safety margin. With your power aspirations you shouldn't be taking out a massive chunk of that.

RE: Exhaust dia, 2.5" would be okay.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Hi Bob

Kinda like a std decat and remap yes, but I was wondering if there was anything else I could be doing to optimise drivability, safety etc... e.g. Hybrid TD04, ported headers etc... Also rather confused as regards to whether to Apexi or Ecutek.

It's an MY99

Was under the impression that 2.5" was fine to about 300+ ( significantly above my power aspirations) so thanks for that input.

Carlos. Yep, installing a stiffer font bar will negate the benefits of the rear bar in terms of understeer, but the main reason for having these done is to reduce body roll and to ensure that the car remains balanced, i.e. not tail happy. The Geometery set up to prodrive spec should negate sufficient understeer for my tastes.

Cheers,

NS04

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

You wont need a turbo change for your power goals.

Tek if you are going to keep it more or less the same. Apexi if you are planning on lots of future mods/remaps.

I have a AndyF tek on mine.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Hi Bob,

Your figures are certainly very good! What does that equate to in bhp and ft lbs? Andy's reputation preceeds him, my only concern would be using a mapper that is so far away lest there were any issues. I was thinking of the hybrid turbo, not in search of bigger power gains, but for thermal management reasons and for delivery across the rev range: I thought maybe that a hybrid TD04 would sustain the torque for longer than the std one?

NS04

Graz

Interesting Sounds like similar lines to my requirements, I'm looking for slightly better than PPP type performance on a MY00 with a few handling and cosmetic upgrades along the way. Daily driver so needs to be user friendly and reliable. Now my extended warranty has run out I feel it's time to start modding mine in earnest.

Okay I have at the moment:

One MY00 Classic shaped UK Turbo, 65k ish miles on the clock.
17" Prodrive/Oz wheels with Goodyear Eagle F1 GSD3s fitted.
Bumpsteer mod and geometry by Powerstation.
H&S backbox and centre section (2.5")
Samco turbo/intercooler hoses.
Knocklink
Boost gauge.
AE801 ECU fitted and an AE802 spare.

Momo Gearknob and STI pedals (at least 10bhp )

The plan of action:

Performance
=========

H&S de-cat downpipe, wrapped and fitted.
Uprated panel filter (Green cotton or STI)
Defi's - Boost, Oil Pressure and Temp (Okay I already have a boost gauge but I dropped it when fitting and it rattles a bit I would really like some of these gauges as they're )
LambdaLink - Already got one, just haven't got round to fitting it.

and finally
Visit Bob Rawle for a Tek3 I'll refit the AE802 ECU for it and keep the 801 for spare if I ever want to put it back to standard.

Uprated clutch when the current one finally gives way, probably get a Exedy Organic from API as they seem to do good deals on them.

Handling
======

Uprated rear ARB
Solid drop links
and possibly
Eibachs, front ARB, strut braces, etc.

If I suddenly had spare cash then a set of coilovers would be nice.

Uprated discs / pads. (would really love a set of AP 6 pots but ££££)


The body work could also do with a bit of TLC, I have a scuff on the rear bumper and it's stone chip city on the front. I have a mate who's in the body shop business so I'll have to go and have a chat Tempting to get the side skirts colour coded etc. at the same time

Soon adds up though, if I had the money then it could be quite easy to keep spending it on the car.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Hi Graz,

Sounds like we have similar game plans in mind. Do you have a resonated or non-resonated H&S centre. What effect did it have on the in-cabin noise and performance?

Exedy clutch definately the way to go, it's very good indeed and API do a cracking group buy on it. I can also recommend the Pagid Blacks (4.2.1) when you uprate your pads.

Cheers,

Paul

Markus

Along with the ARB's and geometry setup I'd consider bumpsteer mod and ALK (Anti Lift Kit). I had a bumpsteer and ALK done at the same time, along with geom setup at PS and the car felt as it should have done when I got it, fantastic handling. If I've missed something and you already have had it done, then ignore me

Graz

I've got a non-resonated centre. Never been a problem for me noise wise though I gather it will be a bit louder with the downpipe

The only time the exhaust gets a little bit OTT is if I'm taking my mountain bike somewhere and have the back seats down to get it in, bit boomy then but I can live with it. I imagine if you had a wagon it may become irritating after a while.

Oh and performance wise I must say I did seem to make a bit of difference, the car seemed a bit more eager and the turbo spools a bit better. The downpipe should make the biggest noticable difference though. Mine made just over 230bhp on Powerstation's rollers (after they sorted out a boost problem caused by incompetent Subaru dealers, 199bhp before ), can't remember what the torque was.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Ta,

Any noticeable effect on performance mate? I've heard some comments to the effect that prior to a remap, fitting the decat centre hurts low down torque slightly in exchange to a marginal improvement in top end power? Did you notice any difference

NS04

Graz

Sorry re-read your post and noticed you asked about performance gains, then edited mine. See above You're too quick

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Thanks mate, I'll look into that!

NS04

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

LOL, One can never hear that too many times....unless its from a lady!!!!!

Ta,

Paul

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

230bhp is a good figure from just a backbox and decat centre! I'm leaving changing the downpipe close to the remap as I've heard from two prominent mappers (don't want to name drop in public, but PM if you'd like more details) that although MY99s generally run without issue on a decat, some do go outside tolerances which is where probs occur- the downpipe being the main culprit for this. Consequently, you should fit a boost guage and Knocklink to keep an eye on things before fully decatting. Better safe than sorry eh!

You going for a H&S open neck downpipe?

Cheers,

Paul.

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

Personally if I were going for the figures you mention I would just full de-cat, panel filter, samco i/c pipes and run a Dawes device. Also if the ECU is a AE802, change it to a AE800.

Run a KL and have the fueling checked on a RR as you increase the boost.

If you dont like the way the TD04 pulls I would then get a turbo change and remap.

Personally think the std TD04 with higher boost feels quite quick.

Very cheap and effective way of doing it. All IMO.

chrome

re: handling; you cant go wrong with a set of adjustable MRT top mounts!
You can lthen run loads of camber and negative castor and it then handles brilliantly.
You can run far more aggressive settings then than the 'middle of the road' prodrive geometry.
That will dial out a huge amount of understeer.

Agreed about the ARB's... just go for the rear one.
By puttng a front one on it will 'neutralise' the handling back to near factory levels of understeer. This is advice from experience (and the MRT book!)

The ALK is a great mod too, just watch for grounding/dive when braking HARD.

With regard to brakes- a good powerful setup is essential imho.
4 pots (OE or if budget allows Brembo/AP's) should do.
Use decent discs and pads and off you go

I've no idea how AndyF had the guts to doa 215mph top speed run recently.. on 2 POTS!!

Hope that helps.

911

They are light Brad!
210............................................... .................................................. .
Graham.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Its an MY99 mate so it has the scoooby 4pots with Pagid Blacks. Personally, I wouldn't upgrade to anything other than APs as it'd just be a false economy. I can't really jusify APs on mine given the use though. I find the std 4 pots with good pads to be perfectly adequate for the road.

Interesting point about the top mounts, I'll look into it. I don't mind the car understeering at the limit, I don't want it aggressively set up such that it oversteers at the slightest provovation, particularly in the wet- part of the scooby's appeal is its all weather pace. The ARBs are there in the main to reduce the body roll.

Wouldn't getting more extreme with the geometry than the Prodrive settings adversely affect tyre wear?

Regards,

Paul

Tim W

iTrader: (1)

No they're not, they're bloody heavy...but they do fit under 15 inch drag rims

Graz

Yeah I was quite surprised with that figure, perhaps Powerstation's new rollers are a bit more flattering though they did say that is was good power from a relatively unmodified scoob so I guess they may have had a few other standard'ish classics on the rollers.

I will be going for a H&S open neck downpipe to match the rest of the system. I know it can lead to overboosting without a re-map but I have a Knocklink and boost gauge so will be able to keep an eye on things until it gets re-mapped.

Graz

All good and I do agree that the Dawes is a very good value for money mod though perhaps not the most elegant way to contol boost

I would like to make one comment on the above though. The main difference between the AE800,801 and 802 is the boost control map. The AE800 and 801 have much more aggressive boost control, the map is such that once a certain RPM and engine load has been exceeded the boost control aims for peak boost as soon as possible. The AE802 boost control is much more progressive. I swapped from an AE802 to and 801 for this reason and it was significantly more eager to come on boost

The other thing the AE802 is known for is running an even richer top end fuel map. Again too much fuel will actually reduce power as the knock point is moved further away. (see http://www.ecutek.co.uk/tuning/oemcompare/ for more details.)

Now if you put a Dawes on boost control becomes irrelevant, it has been taken away from the ECU and is now under manual control via the Dawes. As you are increasing the boost perhaps it is now more desirable to have a rich fuel map for an increased safety margin (i.e. less prone to knock) so perhaps sticking with an AE802 is a good idea?

Of course running the slightly leaner maps of the AE800, 801 with Dawes will give you more power but with less safety margin. But then everything has its limitations

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Thanks for the tip. I do appreciate that the dawes is a cheap and effective way of upping power and I know a couple of people who have run them without issue (as far as I know) but budget is only important in so far as I don't want to spend a heap more than the Prodrive package would have cost me. I'm not just going for the cheapest way of getting more performance per se. I do feel that for the best results -and for safetys sake- it's better to hand the car over to someone like Bob Rawle, Andy F etc.. to set up the car properly. Expensive compared to a dawes, yes, but I don't mind paying when you know you're getting quality work.

NS04

chrome

I was referring to Andy's ability to STOP from 200+ !!!

The tyre wear IS increased with aggressive camber/castor BUT its Sooo much fun you wont care and even so tyre wear is shortened by maybe a month or so...
I managed 8 mnths/10k miles and only needed to replace them after a trackday!

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

I run a dawes on mine for boost control and it seems to work well enough.

AE802 also has different ignition maps to ae800 and ae801.

Safety margin can be checked whilst setting up the boost on the rollers for det and afr.

By re-mapping the car you are reducing the margin of safety anyhow.


Bob

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Bob,

What spec are you running?

Ta,

Paul.

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

In a nutshell:

FETD05-16g
STi8 I/C
Uprated pump and FPR
cak
AndyF mapped Tek3

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Interesting, certainly produced some nice figures, what kind of bhp, torque does this equate to? I'd heard about the STi intercooler upgrade for a classic and was considering it myself- how much roughly, was it difficult to fit, have you also gone for a larger bonnet scoop?

Ta,

Paul.

Aztec Performance Ltd

iTrader: (234)

mine is 340/340.

I think you're going overkill for your targets. I would not bother with a STi8 i/c for your application.

riosingh

how much is your buget?