MY Project....Falling Short on BHP!
30 January 2005, 01:14 PM
#1
MY Project....Falling Short on BHP!
Sociologically Distressed!
Okay..so I have spent tooo much money on my car, was on the roller’s this morning and did not quite get what I was hoping for… L
My98 I believe is quite heavily modded and only achieved 288BHP & 272lbft
Looking at the graphs, there was a slight drop in power at 6000rpm, followed by a black cloud of smoke; this was thought to be because of the car running too rich at top end…
Not sure how accurate the rollers are, though there was another UK Scooby with only a De-cat that achieved I think was 238bhp!
My specs as follows:
Apexi ECU
Apexi Power FC Commander
Apexi 3 Port Boost Solenoid Kit
Apexi Induction Kit sti 5
Apexi ACV-r Boost Controller
Iridium Spark Plugs
Walbro Fuel Pump
Walbro Fuel Pressure Regulator
Blitz Nur-Spec R System 4" Tail with Jap Innovations De-Cat Down-Pipe
Haywood and Scott Up-Pipe
TD05 FE Turbo
Helix Oil Catch Can
HYBIRD Front Mount Intercooler
Phase 2 440c Injectors + Adaptors
I did this power run at Engine Advantages, and am also booked at Power Engineering for the 18th of this month, think I will go to this to compare the roller and see if it show a similar result…
Thanks to Paul for making it to the Rollers today to watch and assist with the power run. He made some changes to the Fuel at top end and am hoping this will have eliminated the Smoke and hoping the poser loss will be made up on the next roller at Power Engineering.
Though my 1st time on the rollers…I just don’t know what I can do to achieve the power levels I was aiming for…I think I would be happy with 320ish mark…though I don’t want to keep the spending of money to a minimum as I am due to get married this year and finances are little short…
I will update on mody mods later in the week, including pIcs...
Any advise welcome…
Okay..so I have spent tooo much money on my car, was on the roller’s this morning and did not quite get what I was hoping for… L
My98 I believe is quite heavily modded and only achieved 288BHP & 272lbft
Looking at the graphs, there was a slight drop in power at 6000rpm, followed by a black cloud of smoke; this was thought to be because of the car running too rich at top end…
Not sure how accurate the rollers are, though there was another UK Scooby with only a De-cat that achieved I think was 238bhp!
My specs as follows:
Apexi ECU
Apexi Power FC Commander
Apexi 3 Port Boost Solenoid Kit
Apexi Induction Kit sti 5
Apexi ACV-r Boost Controller
Iridium Spark Plugs
Walbro Fuel Pump
Walbro Fuel Pressure Regulator
Blitz Nur-Spec R System 4" Tail with Jap Innovations De-Cat Down-Pipe
Haywood and Scott Up-Pipe
TD05 FE Turbo
Helix Oil Catch Can
HYBIRD Front Mount Intercooler
Phase 2 440c Injectors + Adaptors
I did this power run at Engine Advantages, and am also booked at Power Engineering for the 18th of this month, think I will go to this to compare the roller and see if it show a similar result…
Thanks to Paul for making it to the Rollers today to watch and assist with the power run. He made some changes to the Fuel at top end and am hoping this will have eliminated the Smoke and hoping the poser loss will be made up on the next roller at Power Engineering.
Though my 1st time on the rollers…I just don’t know what I can do to achieve the power levels I was aiming for…I think I would be happy with 320ish mark…though I don’t want to keep the spending of money to a minimum as I am due to get married this year and finances are little short…
I will update on mody mods later in the week, including pIcs...
Any advise welcome…
Last edited by SamUK; 31 January 2005 at 09:40 AM. Reason: Changed the fonts
30 January 2005, 09:31 PM
#5
Too rich at the top says to me "lean out the top end" !
I mapped the car, and there is definitely something amiss. Although slightly rich at the top end (about 6200-7000) it wasn't that rich on the wideband. However what is more concerning is that in areas of the map where I know it isn't at all rich, and is right on the limit of avaliable timing (around 4500-5000rpm), it's still down on where I would expect.
Apparently then ran the cars in 3rd gear, which may not give full boost, and a couple of people were complaining that they didn't get full boost. In fact all the STI8 PPPs I say gained about 15hp from the 1st to the second run as the turbo warmed up and the spoolup improved. A number of people also had low torque, which is what you would expect with lazy spooling of turbo.
Without know the boost it actually ran on the rollers during the run, it's difficult to accurately assess it.
However, I think a compression test would be a good place to start before doing any more work or mapping. I don't suspect it's paticularly bad, as it pulls a good vacuum on idle.
Oh yes, and replace the 35,000 mile old spark plugs too!
Paul
I mapped the car, and there is definitely something amiss. Although slightly rich at the top end (about 6200-7000) it wasn't that rich on the wideband. However what is more concerning is that in areas of the map where I know it isn't at all rich, and is right on the limit of avaliable timing (around 4500-5000rpm), it's still down on where I would expect.
Apparently then ran the cars in 3rd gear, which may not give full boost, and a couple of people were complaining that they didn't get full boost. In fact all the STI8 PPPs I say gained about 15hp from the 1st to the second run as the turbo warmed up and the spoolup improved. A number of people also had low torque, which is what you would expect with lazy spooling of turbo.
Without know the boost it actually ran on the rollers during the run, it's difficult to accurately assess it.
However, I think a compression test would be a good place to start before doing any more work or mapping. I don't suspect it's paticularly bad, as it pulls a good vacuum on idle.
Oh yes, and replace the 35,000 mile old spark plugs too!
Paul
31 January 2005, 09:51 AM
#6
Checked with EA, runs were done in 4th, though agree with maybe full Boost did not kick in on there runs.
The Power graph does show a decrease in power near 6200rpm, as the black smoke appeared on both runs..
The car runs 1.4bar of Boost.
On the road it feels quick, though personally I would not know if the car is pushing 287bhp or 340bhp on the road…as the car just goes when I put my foot down…
Really hoping I can get all this resolved soonish and achieve the results I was looking for…keep fingers crossed PE roller will give me a figure close to my goal! J
The Power graph does show a decrease in power near 6200rpm, as the black smoke appeared on both runs..
The car runs 1.4bar of Boost.
On the road it feels quick, though personally I would not know if the car is pushing 287bhp or 340bhp on the road…as the car just goes when I put my foot down…
Really hoping I can get all this resolved soonish and achieve the results I was looking for…keep fingers crossed PE roller will give me a figure close to my goal! J
31 January 2005, 03:53 PM
#7
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Overfueling to the extent of black smoke 
is most unusual considering you are only running on 440cc injectors 
Generally 440's will "only just" keep up with the airflow available from a TD05 at 1.4 bar of boost.
Andy
is most unusual considering you are only running on 440cc injectors Generally 440's will "only just" keep up with the airflow available from a TD05 at 1.4 bar of boost.Andy
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31 January 2005, 06:42 PM
#9
Hmmm sounds like some restriction some where, my guess is with the exhaust side. Would the downpipe be a twin pipe type instead of a single wide mouth?
You would benefit from a set of ported headers to improve gas flow out of the engine.
Didn't Andy F set up the PowerFC and the AVCR originally, although I recall you were looking for a remap recently 'cos of a few changes.
I gained loads with a PFC and an Andy F. map on a 90 degree entry TD05, STi V top mount, 550 injectors, fuel pump and reg, H&S exhaust and OBX headers ( 363/325) so you should be over 300 bhp I reckon with your set up. How well seperated is the air filter/induction from the hot bits - headers etc. maybe you were sucking in hot air ( not familiar with the Apex'I induction kit ).
The black smoke sounds like unburnt fuel / very, very rich, were all the cylinders firing, and at what plug gap?
Just read Pavlo's comments , yes, change the plugs, suggest a colder grade, NGKPFR7B at 0.5mm gap may well help!!
A few ideas, hope it helps you diagnose the fault!
Neil
You would benefit from a set of ported headers to improve gas flow out of the engine.
Didn't Andy F set up the PowerFC and the AVCR originally, although I recall you were looking for a remap recently 'cos of a few changes.
I gained loads with a PFC and an Andy F. map on a 90 degree entry TD05, STi V top mount, 550 injectors, fuel pump and reg, H&S exhaust and OBX headers ( 363/325) so you should be over 300 bhp I reckon with your set up. How well seperated is the air filter/induction from the hot bits - headers etc. maybe you were sucking in hot air ( not familiar with the Apex'I induction kit ).
The black smoke sounds like unburnt fuel / very, very rich, were all the cylinders firing, and at what plug gap?
Just read Pavlo's comments , yes, change the plugs, suggest a colder grade, NGKPFR7B at 0.5mm gap may well help!!
A few ideas, hope it helps you diagnose the fault!
Neil
Last edited by vulnax999; 31 January 2005 at 06:45 PM. Reason: Added plug commet after reading above again!
31 January 2005, 07:28 PM
#10
you sure you have got no exhaust leaks , as that will make your car take a killing on the rollers, has happened to me twice
my last R&R was 320bhp/290lbs torque with TMIC. that was with an exhaust leak plus it only ran 1.2bar of boost on the rollers and it used to make 1.6bar on the road
my last R&R was 320bhp/290lbs torque with TMIC. that was with an exhaust leak plus it only ran 1.2bar of boost on the rollers and it used to make 1.6bar on the road
Last edited by stevebt; 31 January 2005 at 07:31 PM.
31 January 2005, 08:54 PM
#11
I am wondering if there was a slight misfire, or general poor combustion. The car is making the airflow, hitting 5.1 volts on the MAF, even the "rich" top end was only down to 11:1 AFR on the wideband.
On the rollers it had the bonnet open, but had been stood standing for a long time idling prior to the run (has an FMIC though).
New plugs and some further work on the mapping, more a confirmation that it's doing everything it should in terms of airflow, injector duty cycle, AFR etc.
Paul
On the rollers it had the bonnet open, but had been stood standing for a long time idling prior to the run (has an FMIC though).
New plugs and some further work on the mapping, more a confirmation that it's doing everything it should in terms of airflow, injector duty cycle, AFR etc.
Paul
31 January 2005, 09:29 PM
#12
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Originally Posted by Andy.F
Overfueling to the extent of black smoke is most unusual considering you are only running on 440cc injectors Generally 440's will "only just" keep up with the airflow available from a TD05 at 1.4 bar of boost.
Andy
is most unusual considering you are only running on 440cc injectors Generally 440's will "only just" keep up with the airflow available from a TD05 at 1.4 bar of boost.Andy
Andy , i've got video fottage of a 2.2ltr with 380's doing this !!
(although im not sure it was running quite that high boost)
Last edited by ScoobyDuck; 31 January 2005 at 09:32 PM.
31 January 2005, 10:49 PM
#13
I bought the Exhaust of another member…I saw the exhaust whist it was on the car, left a deposit and collected a week later after he took it off. The only thing puzzled me was when I shook the back box sounded like there was loose sand in there. I guess that’s why it sounds little crackly when I put my foot down…Not sure if this is affecting anything… 
Did have a leak a while back, that was due to the Up-pipe, again Rob pointed this out when he changed my Turbo, so new Gaskets and a new Up-Pipe was fitted by Xtreeme Scoobies. Apart from that the exhaust is nice and loud so not quite sure if I would hear a leak.
The down-pipe is an open neck I believe, purchased from Jap-Innovations.
Andy did map my car originally, though that was before the upgrade to TD05 and the AVCr and a few other bits, Paul has now mapped my car, which is great as he is local to me… J
I have ordered NGK PFR7B Plugs from ASPerformance and should be here tomorrow (Tuesday) and hopefully in the car by tomorrow night. J
Ported Header’s are on the list I believe the cost is £100 from Harvey, though I did not want to go down the route at present till I get some results on the roller’s…
As this was the 1st time for me on the roller’s, I never though that the rollers may not make as much boost as the car would on the road, learn a new thing every day. They did think my car was the loudest there, maybe the next time I will take my bung out
--Sam
Did have a leak a while back, that was due to the Up-pipe, again Rob pointed this out when he changed my Turbo, so new Gaskets and a new Up-Pipe was fitted by Xtreeme Scoobies. Apart from that the exhaust is nice and loud so not quite sure if I would hear a leak.
The down-pipe is an open neck I believe, purchased from Jap-Innovations.
Andy did map my car originally, though that was before the upgrade to TD05 and the AVCr and a few other bits, Paul has now mapped my car, which is great as he is local to me… J
I have ordered NGK PFR7B Plugs from ASPerformance and should be here tomorrow (Tuesday) and hopefully in the car by tomorrow night. J
Ported Header’s are on the list I believe the cost is £100 from Harvey, though I did not want to go down the route at present till I get some results on the roller’s…
As this was the 1st time for me on the roller’s, I never though that the rollers may not make as much boost as the car would on the road, learn a new thing every day. They did think my car was the loudest there, maybe the next time I will take my bung out
--Sam
01 February 2005, 09:14 AM
#18
I forgot my Camera...though do not see my car in the Link Above
So here are a couple i took with my phone
http://photobucket.com/albums/v607/s...mage_00065.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/v607/s...mage_00064.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/v607/s...mage_00065.jpg
--Sam
So here are a couple i took with my phone
http://photobucket.com/albums/v607/s...mage_00065.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/v607/s...mage_00064.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/v607/s...mage_00065.jpg
--Sam
02 February 2005, 02:10 PM
#20
Okay...
My NGK PFR7B Plugs have arrived today..
http://photobucket.com/albums/v607/s...RF7B_Plugs.jpg
So has the socket
http://photobucket.com/albums/v607/s...ent=Socket.jpg
In the garage this evening making an attempt at changing them..
--Sam
My NGK PFR7B Plugs have arrived today..
http://photobucket.com/albums/v607/s...RF7B_Plugs.jpg
So has the socket
http://photobucket.com/albums/v607/s...ent=Socket.jpg
In the garage this evening making an attempt at changing them..
--Sam
02 February 2005, 06:20 PM
#23
Measure the gap between the plug centre electrode and the earth electrode ( the bent over arm ) and the gap should be approx 0.7 mm, less if you plan to run high boost. 0.5 was recommended for me.
03 February 2005, 09:21 AM
#24
Changed my Plugs Last Night...took near an hour..
Though not as difficult as i though,very well hidden though
The old plugs are the HKS S40i, not sure how old these plugs are...!
http://photobucket.com/albums/v607/s...Oldplug_01.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/v607/s...Oldplug_02.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/v607/s...Oldplug_03.jpg
Car feels allot more responsive and little more smoother now
Though not as difficult as i though,very well hidden though
The old plugs are the HKS S40i, not sure how old these plugs are...!
http://photobucket.com/albums/v607/s...Oldplug_01.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/v607/s...Oldplug_02.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/v607/s...Oldplug_03.jpg
Car feels allot more responsive and little more smoother now
03 February 2005, 07:24 PM
#27
Not sure what heat range these HKS plugs are, but I guess the i means iridium; again, I am not sure what the benefit iridium is over platinum on the regular plugs.
Was the centre pin worn, a funny shape?
What colour were the deposits on and around both electrodes and the end of the plug?
Was the centre pin worn, a funny shape?
What colour were the deposits on and around both electrodes and the end of the plug?
03 February 2005, 09:30 PM
#28
I’ll get a Camera tomorrow and take some pics…the pin's looked ok on all the plugs; there was black deposit around the plug.
Was out driving this evening, and my knocks have been flying high…been seeing the occasional 60, quite a few 20’s…
Need to get Paul to look at my car ASAP…
Was out driving this evening, and my knocks have been flying high…been seeing the occasional 60, quite a few 20’s…
Need to get Paul to look at my car ASAP…
07 February 2005, 10:48 AM
#29
Ready for the Rollers. (again)
Was out getting my car looked at by Paul on Saturday, and as you do on Saturday dragging up and down thiis long empty dual carriageway with Paul sitting next to me with his Det-Cans, this C-Class Merc pass's me in the right lane and slows down. At first I though he wants a race, then I saw this guy who stuck his hand to the passenger side windscreen with his Police badge, though he showed it to us and drove off. Maybe an off duty coper...? 
Anyways...
Mapping went well, though the car feels allot quicker and more responsive. He made some adjustments to the fueling to make my car little more ecnomical, however says my car was not running too rich at top end which resulted to balck smoke on the run as well as loss of power. Possible missfire, as the gap on the old HKS plugs was 1.2mm, compared to the 0.8mm on the new NGK plugs, or could be anything really...
Paul is pretty convinced that he has done all that he can, and the car should now achieve the 320+bhp on the 19th at Power Engineering.
If the results are achieved, i will be looking into getting headed ports into the car..
Opps nearly forgot:
So there I was the same evening, on the A4 and I thought I'd do a run in 4th to let the AVC-r learn in forth, seeing the road was completly empty...accelerated from 40mph in forth to 80mph, then had to slow down for lights as I started pressing my breaks, flew past the old bill parked up on the left, sitting in there car...2nd time lucky, they never followed, i think they were sitting there eating as they were parked next to a mobile food place...there on I drove home at 40mph...
Anyways...
Mapping went well, though the car feels allot quicker and more responsive. He made some adjustments to the fueling to make my car little more ecnomical, however says my car was not running too rich at top end which resulted to balck smoke on the run as well as loss of power. Possible missfire, as the gap on the old HKS plugs was 1.2mm, compared to the 0.8mm on the new NGK plugs, or could be anything really...
Paul is pretty convinced that he has done all that he can, and the car should now achieve the 320+bhp on the 19th at Power Engineering.
If the results are achieved, i will be looking into getting headed ports into the car..
Opps nearly forgot:
So there I was the same evening, on the A4 and I thought I'd do a run in 4th to let the AVC-r learn in forth, seeing the road was completly empty...accelerated from 40mph in forth to 80mph, then had to slow down for lights as I started pressing my breaks, flew past the old bill parked up on the left, sitting in there car...2nd time lucky, they never followed, i think they were sitting there eating as they were parked next to a mobile food place...there on I drove home at 40mph...
