y2blade

fitted the wheel covers (5min job) and off we went, lovely job

The Dogs B******s

Great pics,i used have a T5,loved it

firebug

iTrader: (3)

my last car was an 850tdi. id have another. at least the abs on that worked in the snow unlike my classic imps.

Brun

What the covers for?

y2blade

they are Autosocks

they are truly amazing, the hill I stopped on is VERY steep with no grit.. it is very hard to cycle up, and Thurs night the Quad was wheel spinning just to maintain a steady speed...the car just gripped and pulled away without any wheel slip at all

bare in mind my car is FWD...without any traction control, with 285bhp and 400nm due to a few mods

this is the first time I've tried them
I honestly didn't think they would make that much difference

the Socks are made of a very thick fabric and need to be removed on clear Tarmac, I am still getting a AWD car ahead of next winter as it would be a pain to keep stopping to remove them as I get to within 1 mile of work...and the same again to come home

y2blade

I love mine too, will be sorry to see it go

Brun

Ahhhh - didn't realise they went over the tyres. Just looked from the pics that you were covering the face of the wheel

y2blade

I have just found this about my Snowsocks

y2blade

this was her Before we went for a little Drive

dpb

I should imagine the avrerage beemer owner would be gagging at this opportunity

y2blade

not much snow overnight but still very cold here

Steve vRS

I've got some AutoSocks on back order. They should be here by Summer

Steve

Matteeboy

And RWD Merc owner, and overwheeled Audi owner, in fact any owner of any car that goes well.

People love having a pop at BMWs for their lack of ability in the snow when in fact, the reason the struggle is because they are powerful and RWD. Maybe we should chop them in for a 1.0 litre Fiesta?

astraboy

Me too, great cars, pity they're a bot long in the tooth nowastraboy.

john banks

I really think the BMW issue is not enough weight over the driven wheels. Porsches do much better with more power, RWD, fatter tyres. 50-50 weight distribution is a con.

GTR with 285 section summer tyres does fine in the snow (much better than a supermini on skinny tyres), but quickly transfers torque from 98% rear to 50% front/rear, but has a near 50-50 distribution.

There is something particularly crap about BMWs and Mercs in the snow on summer tyres.

Will get some of these Autosocks though, many good reports on them.

y2blade

the old girl can still dance

eggy790

iTrader: (20)

bmw plus snow tyres is what you want! mate when to this tyre place and asked for snow tyres, they gave him a cuppa he sat down, came out with 4 snow tyres on his m3 £45 a wheel! im pretty sure they were budget tyres but he has the 19" wheels for summer and the 18s for winter, so not really fussed!

Matteeboy

Sorry but that's BS. A 911 pushed hard will let go very quickly. It's a giant pendulum after all. Yes Porsche have worked wonders "curing" it's inherent design "flaw" but they can't defy physics. 911s pushed hard get very twitchy at the limit and the steering goes too light.

Mercs aren't 50/50 anyway - far from it.

Oh and a GT-R is pretty well balanced.

As for snow - anyone with half a brain has a cheap 4WD/runabout for the few days a year it snows. And for going to the shops. And for abusing.

Devildog

Matt,

I suspect what John was getting at was that even with 50:50 weight distribution, that's not enough weight over the rear wheels to give decent traction in snow and not that the 911's rear weight bias makes it better handling.

Its about having most of the weight over the driven wheels (in the absence of proper winter tyres)

I've been running the Shogun in rear wheel drive without much trouble in conditions that would see most of England unable to move.

But its got the right tyres on for the conditions.

And I'd suggest that an old set of wheels with winter tyres can be had for much less than a cheap 4wd runabout and is a more sensible option for anyone with slightly more than half a brain

The taxi we got home on Christmas Eve through another six inches of new snow on top of already white roads was an E90 (5 series) BM. It had no problem as it was on the right tyres.

On summer tyres, though, there is no doubt that weight over driven axle is important.

Matteeboy

Devil - fair enougn but our Jimny has almost no weight over the rear tyres (RWD when 4WD not selected) and it's coped very well in the snow and ice. I've used 4WD when it's got really bad and it just makes a mockery of the conditions. I think having very little power and torque helps!! And the right tyres - skinny and heavily treaded.

500

Because you have one

You really are a **** aren't you

john banks

That is what I'm getting at, not that I particularly love 911s and their weight distribution, but they do move in snow where a BMW won't despite more power and more tyre.

So we can say that the following contribute and you can lose some of them but not all of them to have some hope in the snow:

Tyres (compound, type, dimensions)
Say >60% weight over the driven wheels if two wheel drive
Limited slip diffs
Four wheel drive

BMWs on fat summer tyres have none of these except the M cars which have limited slip diffs, and they have even fatter tyres which also makes them a disaster in snow.

Personally I don't want to have to look after three cars, so I bought something I hoped would do the winter, and so far it has. I thought it would be crap as the tyres are dangerous in standing water, but in the snow it is really good.

john banks

On the subject of 50-50 weight distribution though, I do think it is just BMW marketing rather than some ideal. It harms the abilities of many BMWs in the wet or the snow, they don't have amazing steering feel from the RWD platform like you might expect, it may let the rear brakes do more work but the brakes are inadequate and only the M models have proper diffs. Some four wheel drive cars have better steering feel/response with less understeer even though they don't have the 50-50 weight distribution. On many roads an Audi with the latest quattro will be much better at instilling confidence and finding traction through all the tyres.

There are also dynamics about weight transfer, depending on suspension design the static 50-50 weight distribution could be considerably more rear biased under acceleration and more front biased under braking. Both sound good for the RWD car, but the practice doesn't always follow the theory because the rest of the car is too compromised to handle brilliantly and perform.

I like BMWs, I nearly bought another, but the marketing of this 50-50 stuff is just that.

The near 50-50 distribution of my present car is not what makes it good, it is a very small part of it.

I'm not the sort of driver that would take a powerful RWD car and turn all the aids off and slide it around on the road. I enjoy response and feel, but like safe AND high g-forces. I feel that BMWs with driver aids off in poor conditions are just too unstable, the rear end moves and wants to keep going. Without engine killing fun, active diffs can let you get the slide but not feel anything like as likely to turn it into a spin in poor conditions.

An M car in the snow on summer tyres with driver aids off is too intimidating for me to have fun in, I'd go dead slow if I could go at all, or risk ending up in a field. Yet I will happily drive a 600 BHP AWD car in the same conditions.

Matteeboy

John - interesting. I really would have expected it to be dire in snow after hearing about the water scares.

Still Summer tyres but just ordered a set of non run flats (Sport Contact 3s) so looking forward to getting rid of that crashiness and most of that tramlining that RFTs give.

I spun my NSR tyre in some mud earlier (not intended) and my warning lights went nuts. Definitely not an off roader!

I won't argue on the benefits of 50/50 from a drivers point of view. I'll let the reviews do the talking - I have yet to see one that says the balance harms the cars handling and any that don't like the way any BMW (apart from the 4x4s) go around corners. The modern BMWs I have driven (not many but a few) have all been brilliant fun to drive. Audis with AWD get regularly bashed for being dull and disconnected, whatever their grips levels. Grip over handling finesse - never a good thing.

500 - get over yourself and get a life. Everyone that has a go at me like that reveals themself (with a bit of searching) to be utterly sad. Usually extreme geeks, always not happy with themselves, always after a cheap snipe. And always beyond help.

john banks

Automotive journalists are always going on about power oversteer, but it is highly irrelevant to most drivers. Not losing it on a corner in the snow, wet or mud is, and having suspension with enough travel to keep the tyres on the road on bumpy/twisty roads is quite important to me. I would choose these and the ability of the brakes and engine over how alive the steering is, which it isn't really on BMWs at all when you compare to say the last generation Evo for example. I would take grip over feel any day, but some cars do combine both.

Matteeboy

Well I feel far more confident in the RWD BM than I did the 4WD Golf. And the 750i I tested really did handle brilliantly for such a big car. Not power oversteering, just spirited driving. No track work, just having fun in a car that can also be used for shopping and dull tasks.

I'm happy with the brakes - 348mm disks at the front and fine for all but track work. They are progressive and powerful enough. Unlike Audis horribly snatchy brakes. As for the ability of the engines, BMWs are hardly berated for their lame engines - in fact they often win awards for them.

BMWs cars are good - but you are comparing supercars to "fast" cars - a bit unfair really but I think BMs cope very well.

If I crash my car I'll come back with tail between legs but for now it's all I need.

Anyway, wasn't it you that was considering a 335d?

And look how many lose it in 911s. Sure they often lack experience but if it's all about not losing it on a corner in snow, mud, wet then the 911 is hardly a prime example of a friendly car. I know a few who have lost it big time in them.

Yes an Evo is a great car but the ride is rock solid, the power delivery is very non linear and the fuel consumption and size of the tank make it completely impractical for most. Hardly a "do it all" car.

One thing they do that's sensible though is not have silly oversized wheels. A lot of German cars are "overwheeled" and it really stuffs up handling and wheel travel. A trend I really don't get.

john banks

I was considering a 335i, but I just knew it would be a nightmare as my only car for winter and decided I could live with less refinement and a firmer ride of a GTR.

I'm not saying a RWD 911 is an example of a friendly car, but it does at least move in the snow where a BMW gets stuck.

I like BMW engines, no problem with that. The brakes are a disaster though, the discs seem fine, but the pads just start breaking down when pushed. That doesn't happen with equivalent Audi brakes down the same road, and they don't feel like they used to.

What I wanted was the combination of engine, gearbox, four wheel drive that UK BMWs could not supply. I would probably have a 335ix if they sold it here and it would be modded to hell and back

The odd thing with oversized wheels is that the GTR has 20s and is firmer than a BMW, but doesn't skip over bumpy surfaces. Also to be fair, 335i coupe sport on 19s was OK too. E60 M5 had the bounce, as did my E46 M3.

Matteeboy

John - I always find your posts interesting. You have owned (and still own) and driven some serious kit. I haven't got anywhere near your list. Fastest car I've driven? Acceleration - FQ360. Top speed - F355. Hardly modern supercars.

But what i do find you doing is flitting from one point to the next almost completely randomly. One post is about driveability in "normal" conditions, the next is about perfectly decent brakes not being good enough (yes the M5 may not be sufficiently braked but the rest of the range is fine) - i.e. pushing cars to silly limits. Then there's nothing but comfort, then it's about lap times around the 'Ring.

Any forum user with half a brain will pick and choose almost random points to their advantage but I prefer to stick to my guns. So really I cannot "win."

You have a monster of a car that I greatly admire but have no desire ever to own, I have a much more modest yet still pretty rapid estate car than suits me, gets cracking reviews but certainly doesn't suit everyone.

How about we agree on those points and move on?

john banks

Comparisons and points don't really matter. I'd be very happy with your car!

I have quite specific requirements that are just different to yours and the compromises I put up with are different. If I had to choose I'd prefer grip to handling, traction to sliding, acceleration to throttle response or linearity, and fade free brakes to something that fades and judders but has feel before it does.

That is why I "get" cars like the RS6, but sometimes miss the point about what I think are daft bobbing front ends of 911s and dodgy marketing of BMWs.

I will give a car quite a workout on the road, I still have to grow up, but having put one in a field upside down, I don't drive them over their limits (or mine) deliberately these days. But I still want to feel a g in any direction and not feel like I'm going to bounce off the road or bin it. Does that make sense?

I'm not so dull on finesse though that I can't recognise that BMW are quite dumbed down in their feel and response, whilst also being quite flappable lacking really special acceleration, braking, traction, suspension composure or cornering speed except on very smooth surfaces. I suppose that is what most consumers want. I like BMWs, but they lack something when pushed hard. I cannot respect any BMW I have driven hard as they all seem to have a deficiency. Apart from the noise, an Evo has no deficiency in performance terms, neither has a GTR. Most Subarus do because the front end just doesn't bit like these two (except for eg Spec C etc from what people say - that I haven't driven). I like comfort, but I will put up with these relative brutes because they are the few cars that will take apart a road and whilst on the one hand flatter you and really involve you, they also say "try again 20mph faster" and so far always exceed my expectations in performance terms no matter how long I live with them.

A 335ix with suspension, big brake kit and 500 BHP would be a dream car of mine. Or a 3.0 twin turbo Legacy! Neither exist, and it is easier to buy a GTR.

So there is no win/lose, just opinions and compromises.