J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

As per the question, discuss, should all new cars have ESP as a standard fitment, ok there are a few exceptions but I personally think it should.

richs2891

Yes and no,
Yes its an excellent device and really does aid in the event of an emergency.

But I feel that there are too many people out there that are far too dependant on car electronics - and hence drive way above their own abilitites, and have absolutely no idea about for example differing grip levels in different conditions, understeer, oversteer, lift off oversteer, weight transfer etc. All things that ESP masks to a greater or lesser extent.
Would some people be better getting training so they are aware of the above and the appropiate way of preventing them - YES in my eyes.

Richard

mykp

Yes, but only if there is a **** off big button on the dash that says OFF.

My merc has ESP and to be honest it can be a real pain in the backside, especially when you are trying to make progress. Even though there is a button on the dash which switches it off, it comes back on again automatically at 40mph and wont let you turn it off again until speeds drop below 40mph.

Its good dont get me wrong, but sometimes it can be intrusive and if your car has it dont even think of taking your car on the track.

mike

what would scooby do

As above, drive driving a merc witth ESP up a wet gentle grass slope you just go backwards.

Brendan Hughes

I pointed out about two years ago when Vauxhaul released another car (I dunno, Astra? Vectra?) with active this, electronic that - why can't makers design chassis properly instead of designing crappy chassis with electrickery to correct them? The irony is that many "real drivers'" car of choice is the Mitsi Evo - which has electronically corrected bloody everything, as far as I can see.

MooseRacer

Vauxhall are indeed the masters of this

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Is it not a bit like the current crop of planes that are aerodynaically unstable and can only fly due to the fly by wire systems, I dont think that the chassis of any modern Vauxhall is that bad to be undrivable without, apparently a study in the US said that on SUV's (big clumsy off roaders to you and I) it reduces accidents by 75%, now that is a vehicle with a poor chassis that needs electronics to avoid drivers bypassing its limits, I nearly totalled a Ford Maverick, it started going into wild lurching oversteer on a roundabout at just over walking pace, would hate to have found out how limited it was (I had assumed that it was pretty bad anyway) on a long sweeping wet A road.

I think that if the ESP is cutting in often it is either as you say, too intrusive or perhaps you are driving right on the cars limits a lot of the time, mine has cut in a couple of times (Saab) but I dont find it intrudes ?

A lot of people dont understand it and most drivers bottle out before it starts cutting in with any regularity as they are going too fast anyway, I think its for situations like emergency lane changes or bends that are tighter than they appear.

I can understand that there should be an option to turn it right off, mine comes back on over 35 mph, at slower speeds I think its for driving on Snow or mud.

With regards to people relying on it to keep them out of trouble, well if it were standard on every car that would not be an issue and if they do use it like that then they are probably speeding and a camera will get them anyway.


I remember speaking to a guy who thought he was some kind of driving god, in the days when ABS was still fairly uncommon (Early 90's) he had a Rover 800 company car with it on, I mentioned it and he took it as an insult agsint his driving prowess and in turn his manhood, he told me he thought it dangerous and would make people complacent and that he was going to remove the fuse to disable it as in an emergency he would use his superior (IAM) skills and cadence braking. One day we were going to Penith to a site, a car pulled from a sideroad and he was busy pontificating about something else and noticed it after I had and just stood on the brakes and steered, missed it by inches due to the ABS, we argued when I said that without the ABS he would have hit it, he just said he didntneed to Cadence brake as he knew the ABS was active and he could safely just brake firmly which was b0llocks as he just panicked and hit the pedal but was trying to tell me he had it all under control. These are the people that need the electronics more than anyone !



On balance the Pro's well outweigh the cons

Brendan Hughes

I think when you see the stats that say 85% of the population think they are better than average drivers, that sort of sums it up.

BTW I have a feeling that your idea is being mooted by Authorities, can't remember where I heard that.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, its funny how everyone thinks that, they confuse being able to do it with being good at it, I am average at best behind the wheel. I am however what I would class as a driver, rather than a car operator which is what a lot of Britain's road traffic consists of, in that I enjoy cars and driving and make an effort to know what I am doing, I talk to people and they dont know which set of wheels on their car is driven, ffs nobody should be driving a car if they dont know that.

Steve Whitehorn

iTrader: (13)

Spot on

However most people are muppets-potential victims who will not take the time and trouble to improve their understanding and place blind faith in technology. So unfortunately it is probably a good thing but for all the wrong reasons.

Shark Man

The problem I have with ESP is that there is no set level of it intrusion. One car can be really passive, whilst another triggers should a tyre drive over a trail left by an errant snail.

For example. My 325 auto. It may have 190bhp, and is not the best of handling of cars (never rated 3 series handling) but with Michelins suited to cold wet roads, it just does not have the power to break traction even on the wettest and coldest of roads. Even a full bore standing start using the hand brake (DSC=OFF) will just incur a minor millisecond of scrabble. And burnouts and doughnuts are nigh on impossible.

Yet, try and pull away from a busy junction with teh DSC on, and that pathetic tiny scrabble tiggers the traction control: What happens? It lets me pull out half way into the road and cuts power dead. Leaving me as a sitting duck. Highly dangerous

Yet in the snow and ice, it works well; I;ve tried on carparks to steer and brake, and it actually uses the brakes to turn the car However, you firstly need to turn it off and activate active diff mode so it can pull away from standstill


Now on the flipside, we have the infamous Vauxhall Monaro. It handle superb. Belive or not Vauxhall CAN make cars that can handle (Actually, take off the blinkers and blast some rental hard on some back roads: New astra handles well, as does new shape Zafira, and the Corsa is a king for lift off oversteer and Scandivaian flicks...pity it feels like the steering wheel has been disconnected ).

Anyhoo, the Monaro has totally the opposite action on traction control: Its a very passive system. It'll let you light up the rear wheels big time and go very sideways before it decides to cut power and flash a warning on the dash. Its highly fun. but on cold wet days using tyres only made for warm dry weather ,its not so clever. Its edging on TVR territory; apart from a Monaro handles: a TVR doesn't

The added problem in the mix of all this electronic driver aids is the electronic drive-by wire throttle; This is supposed to aid driving and control of the car (amongst other stuff). The LS2 Monaro like the BMW and many other modern cars has this. And it causes a huge problem (for me). Because it doesn't let you do what you want it to do; sometimes a half depressed pedal= half throttle, sometimes more, sometimes less. Sometimes when you quickly press the pedal, the throttle opens slowly, sometimes it opens fast.

Whats the problem one may ask? Well, if its a 100BHP Focus, nothing, as teh engine has no torque and rapid throttle movements are barely noticable. But, if the car is a 400bhp RWD torque monster which is senstive to minor throttle movements in low traction conditions, its dangerous. If the car should break into a slide, how does one control oversteer in a RWD car? The throttle. Now if the throttle reacts different depending on what mood its in, then it can make a bad situation worse. Power oversteer turns into lift-off oversteer, then too much again, too little. Then the traction control finally butts its nose in and makes the problem even worse. Leaving one fish tailing down the road; Big fish little fish, big fish little fish, and finally a box; i.e your coffin (preferably not cardboard ).

So with that in mind, a system that is pre-emptive without overreacting, or no system at all is far better than a relaxed over-passive system that over-reacts and reacts too late.

Brendan Hughes

^^ here endeth the lesson ^^

mykp

What shark man said is bang on, remember the Brabus SL on top gear, wobbling through the corners as the traction control kicks in and out.

TopBanana

Shark Man you're talking about Traction Control. ESP brakes individual wheels when the car gets out of shape - for exampe a high speed lane change to avoid an obstacle on the motorway.

I made sure it was on the last car I bought my wife - a Volvo V70. She wouldn't have a clue how to handle oversteer.

It was on Fifth Gear a while ago:
YouTube - Top Gear - Fifth Gear - Bosch ESP
(skip to 6 minutes)

Shark Man

I know, but on most ESC cars, traction control is part of the ESP/DSC/ASC systems. Throttle and brakes are used to control traction AND a sliding car.

Active throttle control also works in conjuction with this too:

For example, on the BMW throttle response is dampened and delayed when it senses the sterering wheel is being turned, as a pre-emptive measure.


NOW, EBD (brake force distribution) is a different matter; Strictly that is what brakes each wheel indiviually in a slide. This can be acrtivated under both under traction control, stability control, or ABS. As the EBD is mainly incorperated into the ABS system to help correct the direction of the car during heavy braking or braking on slipperly roads. But ESP will activate brakes and EBD without touching the brake pedal, either as part of traction control, or stability control.

Brake assist is another one which is part of the ESC, EBD and ABS systems. Makes heal and toeing in a VAG or BMW interesting. It appears that on some models it seems to be triggered if the brake and thorttle pedals are pressed at the same time! One quick blip between gearchanges can result in an unexpected emergency stop!

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Shark Man, I can see what you are saying but by and large most people dont drive 400 bhp behemoth's (Let alone a Brabus SL) and most people are Muppets, I suspect the systems will get better and I would hope there is always an option to turn it off, completely for the occasions when it is appropriate (Drift Days, if it malfunctions, for a bit of fun) but these occasions are few and far between for most drivers, on here there is an above average percentage of people who see the car as more than a status symbol or a White Good, we are but a minority and I would far rather have School run mums, harrassed reps and the like nannyed so they dont stray onto my side of the road.

Another reason for me being pro is that my eldest is 12, in six years he will be wanting to drive and I would imagine by then most cars will have it new, it will protect new drivers like no other device invented, sure they will find new and intesting ways of causing havoc but ploughing off the road will be made much more difficult as will big tank slappers. One negative thing about a new breed of drivers only used to cars that wont excede the envelope is that they wont have a clue if they drive an older vehicle unless what they learn on GT8/Forza5/PGR8 kicks in, but then again you can engage driver aids on them.

I learnt to drive in a 1969 Mk1 Capri 1600 GT-XLR, about 90 bhp was plenty enough to induce lurid slides sometimes when I didnt want to (ask J4cko's mate) and how I didnt wrap it up I will never know, I dont know if this approach is worse or better than a 18 year old with electronics, chances are they will make it to 20 which for a time, for me, looked very unlikely.

Cheers for the heads up on the Brake assist, I dont do it these days but as a young lad learnt it by trial and error before I knew it existed.

Brendan Hughes

Here it is. FIA proposed it a year ago as a result of Swedish (and US) studies.

e-Safety incentives proposed

Shark Man

Aye.Hopefully things will improve. It's not just the more elusive cars though. The "sitting duck" scienario still being an unwanted feature that affects many cars across the board.

But my point is, nobody knows for sure wht level of interaction one should expect from such systems. Had a great example this morning driving in. Lots of ice as the rain from last night froze. Here's me in a 530 pottering round an island and encounter a sheet ice skid pan travelling far too fast (its a 70mph limit road - but I had slowed to a running pace for the island - still too fast though). Guess what the DSC did - nothing! Whereas the 325 (same year) would be pulsing brakes away like mad.

And that's the issue: Until now I expected the DSC on the 530 to be the same as other same year BMWs. It's obviously not. And this is where somehow some sort of set level of system interaction needs to be laid down.

Not that's an excuse to drive faster in said conditions, but it caught me out. Just as well its a big nice and wide island, so I just kept minimal amount of steering lock and let it understeer 'till it found some more grippy surface before I could attempt at it turning anymore sharply. Of course, being RWD the option of power oversteer is always there, but being a fly-by-wire BMW and automatic. At slow speeds its often caught snoozing so the throttle won't do what you say, and the gearbox is still working out what gear it should be in (which could make things worse whould it decide to shift whilst trying to control the slide). Admittedly it "shouldn't" shift gear during a slide, but seeing the DSC system wasn't interacting there's no way to be sure.

Non-the-less I went past a poor fellow in a white van who wasn't so lucky (either with skill or too much speed) who had binned his van into a hedge up a grass embankment. He was ok. But obviously non-too impressed "where's the gritters?" being his excuse. They had already been and gone - the water just refroze. TBH I'd prefer it if gritters didn't exist, then one would assume all roads were icy when its freezing.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

On the Ice thing, I find that generally you can guess as to whether there is a possibility but its not an exact science, the outside temp flashing a snowflake under 4c is a good reminder that there may be but having being caught out myself by unexpected Ice I know how scary it can be.

Surprised that your ESP didn't kick in, maybe there is a problem with it ?

With mine, not really knowing it I provoked it a few times to get it to cut in so I have a feel for what it does, watching videos or reading about it doesnt give you any idea how it feels.

Its funny, I looked back at the Brochure from when we bought the Sharan in 2002, it was available then but I cant remember even considering it, I suspect I didnt know what it was, generally we go for the safety related options.

Still, a few years back I was driving a H reg Metro 1.0 'Clubman' with no safety features whatsoever and now its a choice of two 5 star rated cars with ESP, to be honest I took more risks in the Metro just to maintain momentum (and so nobody saw me)

Huxley

We have it both of our cars and the most anoying thing is that you can't turn it fully off on the wife Brabus Roadster ,as a rear wheel drive car I like to know what it's doing, not telling me what to do!!