john banks

I like:

Six or eight cylinders
Turbo(s) or supercharger
Four wheel drive
Auto gearbox
Refinement
Good handling/brakes
Reliability
Anonymous or subtle looks
Not being totally ripped off on running costs

I don't mind:

Poor economy
High insurance
Frequent servicing
Number of seats or doors
Depreciation as long as it isn't monumental
Purchase price within reason (prefer to stick below £50k)

Obviously I'll have to compromise on some of these features. The 400 BHP Evo IX does the trick in terms of nearly everything except looking silly and being unrefined. The four cylinders and the manual gearbox I can forgo for the other benefits, but I really want something more grown up and refined.

Ideas:

RS6 - serious DRC issues (80% of cars on RS246)
B5 RS4 - manual and really don't like the bounce
M5/M6 - RWD, just don't think it would get much of its power down much of the time for much of the year, monumental depreciation on E60 M5 - £1.5k/month on bm3w some say
996TT - looks a bit flash but quite tempting, takes a few gentle mods well, but when I test drove a standard 420 BHP it excited me about as much as the E46 M3 I had at the time, entirely forgettable. I made a mistake buying the M3 when I wasn't really that interested in it, and feel a 996TT might be the same.
997TT - would have to really like it to spend that much, depreciation unknown, but potentially £££££
Merc 55K AMG models - RWD and the handling, but the engine!!!
Cayenne Turbo - very heavy, but quite tempting, not tried one
Previous model S8 - (NA 360 BHP) - very well priced used, lighter than the A6 because of all the aluminium, but still a tank

Sounds like you really want a warranty to run all of the above as an engine or gearbox could easily do you for £10k+.

B7 RS4 does most of the above most closely, snotty dealers didn't want me to drive one when I asked earlier in the year because they were all sold without test drives. If the manual box is nice and it doesn't feel too gutless in the torque dept it might be OK? Basically it goes like a IX FQ340 except around a tight track, but clearly it has a lot else going for it. E60 M5 is similar money lightly used, but the RWD on Scottish roads The grumbling M brakes I could do something about - pads or APs etc if they irritated me that much.

Then I think keep the Evo and run around in a Mondeo or 320/330d etc, but then I'd end up never using the Evo...

If Audi would make an RS3 with a 3.2 twin turbo that would be nice. Oh and there is the new RS5 if they put the turbos on the 4.2.

A 3.0 Legacy with a turbo hanging off each side would also rock

Suggestions welcome, except for stop wasting my money on cars

Matteeboy

John - what have you got at the moment?

The FQ360 Evo IX (MR or non MR) is actually quicker than the FQ400 Evo XIII and is much much more driveable.

I'm still spellbound by the test drive I took - It would batter an RS4 is almost all situations. The RS4 is lovely but maybe a little bit "successful estate agent" now (Avant excepted).
Only downside is a pretty unispiring soundtrack.

Something the RS4 and AMG55 Mercs certainly do rather well at.

Andy M3

It might be too low rent TBH, but Volvo do an S60R. 300hp/300lb/ft [from a lowely 5 pot, with a TURBO though ] out the box trick AWD system all are fairly high spec and value for money they are unbeatable. As I said, it's no Audi/BMW/Merc, but subtle enough for your needs and can pick up the pace on the Scottish lanes, or cruise a Motorway in silence.

Just a thought.

P.S I was think Masarati Quattroporte V8 until I got to the AWD bit

john banks

My experience with an E46 M3 through a typical winter made me never want to do it again. It wouldn't go up my drive when it snowed. It only snows occasionally, but I don't want to get stuck if it does, and I don't want the hassle of snow tyres/chains etc. The Evo and the Scooby are fine in snow on normal tyres. Regardless of snow, the M3 was also very sensitive to road temperature and dampness, and it was a joke on a B-road in the wet when you could be going far faster in a Scooby in safety. Roughly half the days you would get a nice yellow flashing DSC light in 2nd gear - ie it couldn't put all its meagre torque down at road legal speeds.

Matteeboy, presently I have an Evo IX FQ340 modded to 400 BHP. It is faster than the IX FQ360 at any point in the rev range, hits full boost at 2500 RPM. Yes it drives great, but it is a bag of nails to live with. The FQ360 is apart from very minor changes basically an FQ340 with a high flow cat, fuel pump and remap.

S60R - they have some nice points (I tried an S60 D5 some years ago), but is the engine a bit small for a heavy car and do the conrods like JB style torque? The reviews always seem to have them rated poorly compared to the German stuff for performance/handling. I'll look into it. There is also the new Saab 9-5 with a V6 turbo, but they are making it AWD - not out just yet I believe.

If seriously considering the 996TT and the new RS4, then it is interesting to note that the 996TT with X50 pack and a remap would have about 100 BHP more than the RS4 and weigh a little less...

v8voodoo

VXR8..? Falls down on 4WD though.

Shame BMW don't bring the 335ix here, that would tick the boxes.

john banks

335ix would be lovely.

New Skyline is coming too.

AudiLover

"it would batter the RS4 in almost all situations"

So why is the RS4 faster around the 'ring and hockeheim racetrack? Why is the S3 snapping at the heels of evo's if evos are so much better than the RS4.

The RS4 is a high luxury highly engineered vehicle. It is comfortable and is king when it comes to traction, the price reflects that and therefore its pretty obvious that the evo comes nowhere near the RS4 as a overall vehicle. The evo is good at one thing. The RS4 is good at everything.

AudiLover

4wd bmw's are crap. Cars that usually cant come anywhere near rwd bmws in terms of driving dynamics beat 4wd bmw's regularly.

v8voodoo

AudiLover

v8voodoo

sti-04!!

E63 AMG ? M5 ??

Worth considering John, though the Cayenne Turbo is a monster Loves single figure mpg

Robertio

iTrader: (1)

Never I abandoned one journey once as with Toyo R888s I was having problems getting up reasonable gradients on snow (not sure around 500bhp and 1200kgs was helping the road legal slicks ). I'm sure I could have completed the journey if I had the road to myself, problem was if anyone stopped in front of me there was no way I could get moving from a standstill. Have driven it in much worse conditions on normal tyres without any issues.
I had to sit up straight and look over the windscreen on my old Westfield when the snow had built up so far that the wipers couldn't move, other than that the car was good on white stuff. I sense John needs to spend more time driving RWD


Can't think of anything that has not been mentioned. You could always remove the bodykit and fit a large quantity of Dynamat to the Evo

bluerigster

iTrader: (9)

Porsche 996 turbo or Nissian Skyline R34 GTR V spec, either one I'd be happy.

Deep Singh

bounce
M5/M6 - RWD, just don't think it would get much of its power down much of the time for much of the year, monumental depreciation on E60 M5 - £1.5k/month on bm3w some say

I think thats not really true. I've had the M5 for over 3 months now and get MOST of the POWER down MOST of the time, its much better than my AMG that always span its wheels.
I'm often doing full throttle 8.5krpm S6 upshifts with no problems. Obviously I wouldn't exit a roundabout in the wet and unleash all 507 BHP in one go, but thats whats called driving isn't it?

John,I sometimes get the impression that you are more interested in testing the laws of physics than driving?

Also don't bother with the M5 unless you need the space. Better to buy something lighter/smaller, it will handle better. For me there is no other car in the world that can carry my whole family and luggage in comfort whilst keeping up with most exotica in a straight line AND give me handling precision that is without doubt at the top of its class.

If I didn't need the space/doors I wouldn't drive such a big car, I'd buy a GT3 or similar.

As for the deprec, I'd rather put my head in the sand!

john banks

I do have some Dynomat in the Evo, but you can't polish a turd and make it like a bank vault German car.

I can drive RWD without binning it, but the lack of traction in poor conditions just frustrates me, and rightly makes me over-cautious on the road. On the road I feel no desire to master something that wants to spin if I get it wrong, so I usually leave traction control on in a powerful RWD car, yet am very happy in an AWD car without. I prefer to drive something reasonably hard with a sure footed feel, but usually within its limits of grip (although the Evo can be huge fun out of roundabouts as it is so damn neutral with a whiff of oversteer but seems so stable compared with the M3 despite 50% more torque. The M3 felt gutless but still spun its wheels too easily despite M-diff fanciness and didn't feel safe in the wet with DSC off if you were making progress. Whilst DSC or similar is quite effective I hate the feeling of not being able to make forward progress in poor conditions. It is a no hoper for me, I stuck it for far longer than I enjoyed it.

I think if I change it would be RS4 or 996TT. Need to try an RS4.

Hanslow

How about something a little bit different John?

Auto Trader Dealer Pages - Valley Carriage Co

Depends if you want a left hooker, something a bit different, possible servicing / parts issues. Although it only satisfies the V8 and auto box features

Maybe I ought to go back to sleep

scooby222

worth noting that there is a supercharger kit for the rs4,which would certainly make life more interesting
however i have to say im an rs convert,for me the suspension and engine allow you to have fun at sensible speeds where newage imprezas need to be going silly road speeds before they really come alive

Playsatan

iTrader: (2)

Not exactly a drivers car but a Phaeton w12 or v10 diesel pretty much ticks all the boxes.

Devildog

John,

With the 4wd stipulation (being honest with yourself, you won't be happy with rwd) I suspect that your only answer is an RS4 Avant.

However, you probably will still have reservations about driving it as fast as your evo, simply because of comparative value.

A good 996 TT will still be RS4 money and the same issue may apply?

I doubt you will ever find the "ideal car" in one vehicle - you will have to compromise somewhere.

Matteeboy

Is it out yet? A friend of mine was planning to get his done by MTM once the kit was out. His dechromed black RS4 with black Guernsey plates sure looks mean!

Audilover - keep on digging yourself into that hole. I was hoping you had finally gone. Clearly not.

John - sorry. Didn't realise you aleady had an Evo. Sounds like you want to move up the "refined" ladder a few notches then - Go drive an RS4. I doubt you'll come back with many/any complaints (my friends only "complaint" was the lack of low down torque, hence going for a supercharger - 500bhp and sillyish torque)

RB5_245

What about a step sideways to an '07 jdm sti. It would pretty much what the evo does but with a bit more refinement Forrester STi with a bit of fettling..

Or a 993TT, just that bit more raw than the 996.

There's not much out there to meet your requirements, I think all of the wants + Auto is going to be too much to ask for.

NoCatSTI

Just buying a 996 C4S I have had the same thoughts as yourself, and strangly encountered the aloof attitudes of Audi sales people Just what is that all about

The Porsche has a certain amount of class and the 4wd system really adds something, as does the extra 44mm flared rear arches.

Whadya think??

v8voodoo

Dialynx Sport quattro Conversions

Maybe invest some cash into the engine too....

john banks

996 C4S is nice, I only tried the turbo though, and would still consider that.

I don't really want raw or old and the 993 doesn't float my boat, although I can see why people rave about them.

Drove my friend's RS6 again today, this time with the DRC working properly. It doesn't give a lot of feedback bit it is competent and has effortless torque which I love. I certainly prefer this sort of effortless performance to the high revving stuff, so I think it has to be turbo and AWD again

scooby222

john, book yourself into a hotel in inverness for a weekend and book an rs4 demo from highland audi,ideally speak to john forbes- theyre as nice a bunch of salesmen as youl meet, theyve got a grey avant on the forecourt and weve got some great roads to try it on too
i dont know if the s/c kits over here but im sure i read about a guy who drove to germany to get one of the first kits fitted

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

John, if you find an M3 and 911 Turbo dull you are doing something wrong.

I drive a 150 bhp Saab 9-3 Turbo and beat it to death every day, it keeps coming back for more despite how much I try to kill it, it doesnt handle but thats part of the fun, its quick enough to feel like its moving without risking my licence every time I put my foot down.

Forget the big daft Audis, just an object lesson in how to go fast with minimum fuss and therefore you will end up going ballistic to have any fun. What you are missing is the fact you dont have to drive these 4wd german monsters, they do it for you, too fast, too capable and its not really you driving, you operate it like a pilot with a Eurofighter, a Cayenne Turbo shouldnt really corner like a Eurofighter shouldnt fly but the computers make it possible, dont think any true driver will find ultimate satisfaction in something like that, impressive though they are the bloke in the Frogeye Sprite is probably having a lot more fun.

Forget 4wd, traction control and electronics, just get something too powerful for its chassis and tame it.

Aim lower and get the best from it !

john banks

I want the opposite though - I want something that will effortlessly waft along, go very fast, but have a bit of feel doing it. So if the car drives itself that is fine by me, but I would like it to politely keep me informed through the steering wheel

I have previously had a lot of fun in a Ford Puma where you can drive the nuts off it and really appreciate the delicacy of the handling, but it didn't have the power to feel threatening. However, it is a bit of a small tin box compared with what I want now.

Matteeboy

John - Completely different but I test drove a BMW 750i for the Independent and was very impressed indeed. I really threw it around and is felt very compact for it's size - almost hot hatch but with RWD!

Also has a lovely engine (367bhp) and decent (sub 6s to 60) performance but with every conceivable luxury ever.
The interior laughed at any Merc I have been in (although that's not for a few years now), it had proper steering and was nice and subtle.

List is £63k but big Bimmers drop like a stone once very slightly used.
Of course, it's not much of a looker but the latest style is a lot better than the old one.