davyboy

16 years ago another manufacturer made engines within a spit of being the same power and just as reliable.

So why do you always bang on about yours? VTEV this, VTEC that.

5 bhp increase in 16 years.....wooopdeedoo!

Andy M3

Hiya Dave.

crofty

GrahamG

dunno. My CTR had a great engine and i would def get another......

Andy M3

Maybe he means 100 n/a hp / litre?

Which was the first over 100/litre and whats the latest stats. Is it a DC5 that is 120hp / litre or something?

davyboy

MY01 Civic Type R 197bhp
MY90 BWM 320is 192bhp

MY01 Interga 220bhp 2.2 Engine
MY90 E30 M3 220bhp 2.3 engine

15 years of progress?

Andy M3

So I was almost right

A MY90 CRX VTEC was 100hp/litre.
The Integra DC5 is a 2.0 though and 220hp - so thats 110hp / litre
BMW's MY90 96hp / litre.
CSL is 112.5hp / litre.

You knew that though

Shark Man

I think the argument would be better phrased if it was:

Why do people keep quacking on about peak BHP and completely ignore the torque band.

It's useless in the real world if it doesn't kick in until nigh on the redline whilst only having barely adequate tourque range to push it along without stirring the gearbox more than a 18speed tractor unit using every gear on a drag strip run.

davyboy

Not sure why I thought the Integra was 2.2.

My argument is now slightly flawed!

Dark Blue Mark

I shall counter that with the NSX which came out in 1988. In 1990 it boasted 300 bhp (they quoted 270) from a 3 Litre VTEC. In 1997 it went to a 3.2 and dyno'd at over 300 bhp.

16 years on from the 300 bhp model, and the M3 only boasts 50 bhp more with the addition of 0.2 of a litre?

VTEC is nothing exciting, but its simpler and more reliable than other variants

MB

Dark Blue Mark

PS - Honda's and VTEC's generally do get a slating, and people love to quote the lack of torque as a problem. Its got the same torque as any other 2l N/A car, and more so after VTEC.

Trouble is, its all just figures. Ive had STi's and Hondas. The S2000 would stick with a mildly modded UK turbo and would out pace any UK WRX car. But on paper it shouldnt.

Plus the S2000 still has the record for the most power per litre of any N/A car.

Enjoy

MB

Andy M3

The Accord Type R is 2.2 is 212hp. My 2.2 non vtec Honda Odyssey is 140hp though - plenty torquy enough

Shark Man

As an NSX owner, I will state hand on heart that the engine's peformance is no different to that of a 20 year 3.0 911 engine. Despite its higher BHP, its torque band is no different, if anything, overall torque is less (although compensated by a much much shorter final drive ratio on the gearbox).

Bearing in mind the 911 of that age has SOHCs 2 valves per cylinder, mechanical ignition control and very basic Simultaneous multipoint EFi (not sequential).

But then, I never kept the car for the engine - its forte is the overall package the bubmpy B-road twisties and one of the last remaining modern cars with decent control weighting and feedback; Which devoid in most modern cars.

WHEELSHOP0_0

Honda do several n/a engines that produce over 150bhp/litre,






They only drive one wheel tho.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

All very nice of course, but in reality, all anybody wants is a big capacity engine or a turbo, preferably both.

WHEELSHOP0_0

I am not thowing one of my turbos away for anybody

Shark Man

Turbos no! - lag ruins crisp throttle response, somewhat like trying to keep in the vtec band.

Supercharges, all the way Preferably fitted on an LS7 engine : The GM LS7 Engine

Inside GM's Performance Build Center – LS7 Assemble – Popular Hot Rodding

But preferably NOT with it fitted in a Corvette

LG John

LOL the old torque argument again I'm a human being. I control my car. It does not drive itself as the technology to do that is not readily available yet. I decide how much throttle to give it, how much steering to give it and what gear to use. When I decide I want to go fast I take appropriate action. When I do that cars with higher engine torque very often go backwards...................go figure

In short the only critisism you can levy at a Honda engine is that its not flexible enough for your particular style of lazy driving. It is however beautifully matched to the gearing meaning that drivers that want to go fast can go fast irrespective of the pub-talk engine torque figure.

Vtec is nowt special - its a relatively simple idea that works well and has proven to be reliable. I love the engine in the S2000 but I don't believe its a case of bolting the vtec system onto any old block - the whole engine is IMHO well engineered and of good character

LG John

It's not hard. Learn to drive!!

Everything in car design (or almost any engineering) is a compromise!! You have to set out to acheive something and make compromises to achieving that goal (beit money, weight, power, heat, reliability, etc, etc). Vtec engines are generally used to best effect in Type-R cars or the S2000 - these cars were designed to be razor sharp and good handlers. Razor sharp rules out turbos. Good handling largely rules out big cc's for small/light type-R cars - my 2.0 f20c has 240bhp and my old 3.0 v6 pug had 197bhp but a lot more nose weight. Generally you are looking at 3.0l to get 240bhp from a n/a engine and that's a lot heavier and bigger than a 2.0 usually. Vtec therefore works for these sorts of vehicles but would be hopeless if you dropped it into a 5-series BMW bodyshell. Sure it would still be quick enough to compete with the bottom range of the 5-series engine line but it would be totally out of character with the car. Big bodies cars like that need big grunty engines (cc's) IMHO. Scooby's/EVO's on the other hand suit turbo-charging and so on and so forth.

Shark Man

Changing gear mid-bend to keep in that elusive powerband is not my ideal of perfection infact, that is my most hated Vtec flaw; Especially if your in mid dift and need both hands on the wheel....but then that is why most cars have girly over-assited power steering that you can twiddle with your little finger Keeping in a higher gear is not an option unless your sunday driving; No progression on, or off. Although the NSX is very flexible for a Vtec, but it still lacks overall torque even at 7000rpm.

Yes yes, I could scarifice my left hand and feather the thottle letting it bounce of the limiter now and again until everything is settled, hardly mechanically sympathetic though. But then the actual task of changing gear mid-bend is enough to throw off the car's balance and thus something I like to avoid when making progress on a tight road (unless I want to kick the back end out).

WHEELSHOP0_0

Vtec is special, from a reliability point of view, I am sure I read somewhere that in more than 3 million installations a zero defect rate.
Ask a vanos owner if thats special.

ps I know what you really meant, just thought I would chip in with my impression of a fantastic record.

LG John

That is still the case - the vtec system has never failed. The rest of the engine however....

Shark I have to say I find it very rare that I need to change gear mid-bend in the manner you describe. Out on the open road it happens from time-to-time when I misread a corner but that's more my preperation error than anything else. On a track I'd say you'd very rarely get caught like that and you can see this when you watch the many Best Motoring vids that feature vtec cars (they usually film the tacho as well). If I do change mid-bend when pretty flat out I ride the clutch for a split second longer on the gear-change to even out the spike as the new gear engages. As for mechanical sympathy: provided the car is warmed up I'd happily drive it at well above the 6000rpm vtec engagement point. They are built do take it

Shark Man

You don't know much about engines; Wear is propertional to load: more load more wear. Admittedly they are very well built and teh key is they have half decent tolerances so they don't throw themslevs apart. These engines however do fail, like everything, they have a finite lifespan (thinking otherwise is foolish); One sign of impending failure is the Vtec stops working due to lack of oil pressure to feed the actuator. Caused by the excessive bearing clearances leaking out all the pressure. Hopefully you'll get the pressure light on idle but it doesn't take much to switch it off (3psi IIRC)

Preparing for a bend is getting in the righ gear for it, however, if that is a longish sweeping bend then you do come a cropper with then the narrower powerband and close ratio and short overall gearing. Yes could use a higher gear on entry instead, but oh, I drop out of the power band, and then I get people on BBS telling me I don't how to drive I can't win

///\oo/\\\

Indeed.

And Honda engines tend to be more reliable

///\oo/\\\

Given that the effective power band of most Vtec engines is as wide as anything else, I'd suggest a flaw in your technique.

Perhaps you are simply cornering too slowly and thus in too low a gear to begin with?

Shark Man

super6four

Hmmm, even befor boosting the civic, I can never remember having to change gear mid corner.

I do know however that when pushing on hard, if I ever got the driver inputs wrong, it punished me (well a few brown trouser moments for sure ), I did not have any fancy aids or 4wd to sort it all out for me.

Anywhoo, I am rather flattered tbh that our humble type-R's are mentioned in the same breath as £30-40k M series beemers.

Oh and whetehr or not the technology is revolutionary or not is not really the issue, at least (NSX notwithstanding) they are within the priceband of us ordinary folk who cannot stump up th cash for Porkers and BMW M's

davyboy

Nope the M3 I was quoting was the 16 year old E30 M3 and the 17 year old 320is.

LG John

I don't doubt that but what sort of lifespan are we talking here. These cars are not supposed to be round the world 3x Volvos! Many users have taken vtec cars well above 100,000 harsh miles with no problem and to be honest that's all you'd really need. If you get 100,000 miles worth of track days and weekend blasts out of an S2000 before it pops I'd argue you've had your moneys worth! If you on the other hand usually drive it carefully on the motorway, etc then you'd probably expect to get many more miles out of it. I'm not arguing that holding 8000rpm for 3 mins is no different to 3000rpm for 3 mins - I'm simply saying that even driving vtec engines hard you'll get a useful return out of them.

Spiderman has another point. My classic shape scooby needed 3500rpm when standard to really motor and it tailed off at 7500rpm. That 4000rpm. The S2000 is 6-9 so only 25% less range than a wideband turbo car!

LG John

did the old 320is definately have a 2.0 engine - BMW badging and engine sizes are not always related to one another. (I'm asking here not stating)